Papal Visit

[FussyElmo]

I have written , deleted , and rewritten my response several times.
I feel quite sad that I felt the need to 'defend' my faith..and that my wish to attend a beautification lead by the Pope is overshadowed by the awful truth that the Church , and the then Cardinal Ratzinger , let down thousands of Children and their families. I feel conflict between my personal feelings on many issues , and the teachings of the Church. And yes , I can see how so many would consider the millions that this visit costs as being better spent elsewhere....
I would love to feel part of a collective prayer offered up by thousands as we stand together , a sense of unity , and hope for the future...thats what the mass will mean to me.

Very well said and I totally agree

[Pipsqueak]

im like pip i don't follow the politics of religions as im not interested in it at all. im not sure i respect each faith tho!

i admit i am naive when it comes to religions and prob dont know all the facts and i really dont want to offend anyone.

I might not agree or like the teachings or beliefs of certain faiths/beliefs etc - ie JW's and the blood/children etc but I respect someones right to follow what they choose to believe in. What I do not respect is forcing beliefs upon others, particuarly children or using the threat of being shunned and segregated from the rest of the family or friends because you do not go along with the teachings. There are things that just don't sit right with me and I will question them.

I believe that whilst deep seated beliefs are ok, religion like everything else needs to move with the times and should not be blind. Whilst i don't have a particular religion, I have a deep sense of right and wrong, treating others as you wish to be treated, respecting living things, beholding nature and the natural world, I am kind, generous, thoughtful, respectful (in the main) and I think that no matter what God you choose to worship , I think that those are the core principles that we should all live by surely.

IF this Papal visit can bring about more love, understanding, gelling of the communities, reinforce hope then surely its a good thing.

Heaven - you are right I DO have an opinion! lol Just didn't realise it - though perhaps its on religion in general.

[peanuts]

cant believe the local catholic primary school had the afternoon off today. The majority of the kids were waiting at our primary school for their friends to come out at hometime.

I agree to the 1/2 day if they were going to see him. but the majority just took it as a 1/2 day off school.

[Chimps Childminding]

I'm not saying anything one way or the other I just wonder what others are thinking?

Sorry Celest I didn't mean YOU !!! I just meant anyone who was a devout catholic would think it was wonderful, but the amount of money being spent on things like security etc could be better spent in other areas in my opinion, but then I'm not Catholic so I might feel different if I were. Didn't mean to offend you

[mamasheshe]

not my cuppa tea
but i'm not catholic. each to there own

[Blackhorse]

I saw the pope (the previous) a couple of years ago in Rome. Not planned but he happened to be there and we didnt even know..(not that he obviously lives in the vatikan, but that he was doing a big tour round the city followed by a mass)

it was quite a memorable experience even though I am not religious.

as to this visit.
I agree there are many more state visits (not that I find them necessary a lot of the time either) but not many where motorways are being shut down to make a car park and thousands of people are inconvenienced getting to and from their workplace.

the money spent is obviously an issue but whether they would have actually spent it on something useful otherwise...I doubt that too.

I am not clued up enough to know what the actual benefits of such a visit are? (apart for people who want to see the pope and pray etc etc)
maybe they will do something positive from it? many people will be very happy they got to see him.
It would be good if they would use these visits to tackle some of the issues surrounding the church (not the faith behind it) like child abuse etc. then that would probably make it worthwhile.

I didnt watch any coverage as I was working and the 2 kids would have been to little anyways.

[ajs]

are we particulary happy that a former member of hitler youth is in the country, NO
but then i am not catholic so maybe i would care if i was

[Heaven Scent]

Ok I will tell you why I risked putting the cat among the pidgeons by starting this thread.

I was on facebook last night and was chatting to a forum member on there who is of Jewish descent and she asked me if I would be attending any of the ceremonies or going to see the Pope I replied that I couldn't because I wouldn't support anyone who was a member of the "Hitler Youth" because perhaps unwittingly he still supported what that horrible man did to 1,000's of descendents of my friend and of people I worked for and young children I taught. But you know we all make mistakes and act inadvisably when we are young and I'm not altogether sure that he would have had much choice about joining and even if he did he must have felt remorseful enough to become a priest when he was old enough to do so - maybe he joined the priest hood and a life of celebacy as a way of penetating for his unwise choices. We give lots of people the benefit of the doubt and second chances so why not him the war years were terrible and people did terrible things had he actually comitted a crime - did the Hitler youth have an active part in what went on or were thery just in training for the future???

But thats not the only reason I haven't gone - you see I liked the last pope who I feel has always had his hands tied and has been ruled by "People" in the vatican" The Vatican is the richest city in the world and is beyond any civic rulings - I believe it is one of the most corrupt organisation in the world - I am not saying that the this Pope is corrupt or the last one because I believe they are only pawns in all of this i.e. front men. A bit like the american president - the CIA & FBI rule america not the the President its the same with vatican only the rulers there are the Mafia.

In the 1980's & 1990's there were several very good and forward thinking bishops who were promoted by the church to positions in the vatican and who died suddenly very soon after the took up their new positions including Pope John Paul 1st.

I believe that the reason they keep women out and they make tules about priests remaining celebate are their way of controlling the wealth - if priests were allowed to marry then they would need to be paid a proper wage in order that they could support a wife and family and there would be less money to be passed on from parishes around the world to build on the vatican wealth. It is a man made rule which was made by some pope in or around the 15th centrury.

For this reason I don't support a great deal of what goes on in the Catholic church but having said that I am sure that it is no different to any other organised religion.

I must point out that I was brought up as a Catholic in a Catholic country and lived my school years through that my faith but when I left school I did question my faith and have decided to weigh it all up and I believe that Catholism is no worse and no better than any other religion and as I feel that by an large religion does help to maintain the moral fibre of society therefore I'm happy to belong to such a community and I love the traditions and all that goes with them.

I know a great deal of money has been poured into this visit but that has been covered by others and I agree that it may not be necessary but the church has funded the religious aspect and I'm at a loss as to why it should be a state visit - is it because the UK has become largely a secular society or is it because the Queen is the head of the C of E I don't know but as someone TV has said there have been some very questionable heads of other countries invited here for state visits so what is all the fuss about the pope. As far as is known he is not personally responsible for abusing anyone - the Child abuse in the Catholic church is world wide and is certainly not exclusive to Irish priests - I was speaking to a Belgian man while on holiday in Kos and he was talking about revelations of child abuse within the church in Belgium. I am also sure that child abuse within organisations is not exclusive to the Catholic church.

In my opinion those people out there who are complaining about the cost of this visit during these difficult financial times may well consider whether we our taxes should be going to support the Royal Family and all their various homes and trips abroad & pagents by way of celebrating their various bithdays including both of the queens birhtday etc etc and can the countries they visit afford to stage the visits when there are plenty of needy in those countries who could do with the money spent on those visits - and what about these anti religious people donating all the money they spend on shopping at Christmas & Easter to whatever causes they feel would have benefited had the pope not come here. If they don't believe in it all and think its such a waste of time why are they jumping on the band wagon at the fun end?????

When it comes to the Pope himself - the man as it were, I never gave him a chance or a second thought as he took office the year my dad died and ever since I've had a great deal of other difficulties going on in my life to be bothered investigating Pope Benedict and that is probably why I was not moved to ensure that I haven't gone to see him. I love pomp and ceremony like the best man and I did watch coverage of the mass today but I have to say it didn't move me in the way other large services on this type have in the past.

So you see I have very mixed feeling about this but I don't believe it is a bad thing at all I just don't like the fact that the man involved has to be a puppet for corrupt people.

[Hebs]

In my opinion those people out there who are complaining about the cost of this visit during these difficult financial times may well consider whether we our taxes should be going to support the Royal Family and all their various homes and trips abroad.

no we shouldn't, and we should have done what the french did years ago

[Heaven Scent]

no we shouldn't, and we should have done what the french did years ago

LOL!!!!!

I have to say I do like a bit of pomp and ceremony though but think that there is way too much money spent on in this country especially in this economic climate.

Anyhow it appears that this visit was the idea of the good Queen hereself - she invited the pope here for a state visit so I suppose you can't blame the church for utilising the opportunity and to infact limit waste of money but having him perform other duties as well as allowing his English and Scottish congrations the opportunity to seeing him in the flesh - no different to a pop/rock concert. What a waste of money we could say they are - the fans of the catholic faith (parishioners) contribute money to the church and that money has now been used so that they can see their idol as it were I know ultimately God is their idol but the pope to them is a physical represention of God on earth - so no difference there.

As for the Child abuse allegations well that is something else altogether but it went on in all walks of life and in all faiths - so it is a world wide disgrace that never should have been allowed - It breaks my heart when I realise that this went on all around me in my lifetime to people who were children at the same time as me - so very very sad.

I live in a small town in cheshire where there was some kind of childrens home in huge grounds which was not run by any church - (as I am a blow in I don't really know the puropse of the home) and the home had recently become a gastro pub and housing development including appartments in one of the original buildings - but I have been told that the abuse that went on there was untold and that when the houses were being built there were lots of bodies of children found people soon forget at lots of local people now live in those houses and use the pub so you see its fine to knock one aspect of society for it but it went on everywhere.

The man is working hard and is performing several hours of duties each day when here unlike many other state visitiors and pop stars.

I have recently learned that it was compulsory for him to join Hitler Youth and not some sort of family honour/preference or whatever so I suppose I cant hold that against him either.

[The Juggler]

no we shouldn't, and we should have done what the french did years ago

ooh Hebs, that might be a bit draconian these days. Mind you I'm all for sending them out to earn a living. Everyone quotes tourism at us but France does OK for tourism without the royals.

Let them choose one of their estates and they can all live there together and they have to earn their own money to keep it running. They can always run it as a b&b

[jellybean cc]

The Royal family and tourism is an interesting point. I lived in Turkey for a few years. I knew a few Turkish people who were planing holidays in England and they all said one of there reason was to see a real Royal Family and where they live. Because they saw UK as a country with tradition and history.

I personally don't mind the Royal family i think our history is important and should be protected, although i do think an eye must be kept cost etc. To many of our customs and traditions are being cut or criticized to fit in with other countries opinions.

I do think this visit is badly timed, if the country was in a position that we could afford it then brilliant, but at the moment i think, well i don't think i know this is not the right time to be spending this kind of money. We need to financially rebuild ourselves first.

I understand this is important for the Catholic community but surly they must understand that we are not all Catholic but we will all have to pay for this visit at a time when local amenities and services are being cut.

As far as i know he is not coming where i live but I'm not sure if i would wander along to have a look if he was, he has never interested me much, i liked John Paul 2nd and would have been more likely to go and see him if he was driving by.

[WibbleWobble]

well i'm proud to be......

an extreme athiest living in 3rd world britian

the only thing that confuses me a little is...

why the bullet proof car?? is he afraid to meet his maker

no seriously couldn't care less but i do feel sorry for the pope having to listen to the xfactor/BGT/pop idol cast off's

me too... I am a practicing extreme atheist!!!

and proud of it too!

mandy xxx

[Blackhorse]

can I just add something that has to do with the hitler youths

I know a lot of people from the older generation (including relatives) that were members of the hitler youth.
they organised lots of things for the youths and and a lot of people at that point had no idea which path hitler would take and what devastation he would cause to millions and millions....

as far as I know it was mandatory!! from 1939 onwards to join the HJ for at least 2 afternoons a week......just another thought before poeple that have been part of it are being judged for it.

[Daftbat]

I read an interesting biography about the catholic church towards the end of John Paul II time. The informaton contained within it abot the then Cardinal Ratzinger was very damning. I find it strange that he apparently didn't want to become pope since the information i had read shows him to be the main force behind the "throne" and a very dangerous man. I know that this was obviously the view of the author and we have to take that in to account.

I don't have a religion but have always been very interested in all religions - especially what it is that makes people give themselves so willingly to ideas and beliefs. IMO there is onoy one reason why the terrible things happened to chidlren in catholic schools/homes and thats the"man imposed" rather than god imposed act of celibacy within the priesthood. It is human nature for us to hae sexual urges in order to continue the human race and if the cathlic church allowed priests to marry then this would sort out the problem to a large degree.

One last point - I have a big problem with religious and state leaders with regard to the deferrence which is shown to tem. Why should people have to behave in a certain way in the prescence of Kings/Queens/religious leaders?? They are ordinary people, some just happened to be born in to the right family, others surely are supposed to be so devoted that they should be humbled that they ahve been "chosen" to be so dedicated to their faith that they should be thankful rather than expecting others to be deferential to them.

Ok off my soap box now - I just wish we could all just be respectful to eachother and accept that we are all equal - as the church preaches - except that some seem to be more equal than others!

[Hebs]

i thought celibacy was their choice?? and not imposed on them??

sorry i may be wrong but they were talking about it on tv the other day, and they can get married and have children??? i think

[ajs]

can I just add something that has to do with the hitler youths

I know a lot of people from the older generation (including relatives) that were members of the hitler youth.
they organised lots of things for the youths and and a lot of people at that point had no idea which path hitler would take and what devastation he would cause to millions and millions....

as far as I know it was mandatory!! from 1939 onwards to join the HJ for at least 2 afternoons a week......just another thought before poeple that have been part of it are being judged for it.

sorry nicole for the comment i made i hope you weren;'t offended but as a jew who's family had to flee germany and other eastern eurpoean countries because of the holocaust i cannnot forgive ANYONE who was involved in hitler youth.

my grandmother left russia in 1912 because of the holocaust ( aka the revolution) and the persecution of the jews there.

will the state fund the visit from the chief Rabbi, I couldn't imagine they would

[shelly2012]

I find it all a bit strange prob because im not religious. The popemobile get me laughing all the time. The traffic was murder here in Glasgow

[Daftbat]

i thought celibacy was their choice?? and not imposed on them??

sorry i may be wrong but they were talking about it on tv the other day, and they can get married and have children??? i think

There are some exceptions depending upon which particular branch of Christianity you belong to but it is the expected norm that Latin Catholic priests are celibate.

[kindredspirits]

hmmmm..... I think people are very keen to kit upon this hitler youth thing as an issue - they don't have a problem drinking 'Fanta' which was developed for the Hitler Youth etc. I am not saying that being involved in it was a particularly good thing, but at the end of the day unless you have been subjected to that level of propaganda as a child you will never have any idea what effect it will have on you - and bear in mind a lot of the atrocities the Nazi's committed did not become public knowledge until after the war ended.

I don't agree with any religion actually, all they focus on is highlighting our differences not our likenesses. I find it difficult to see how anyone can actually trust a catholic priest when so many have been found guilty of one of the worst offenses possible.
At the end of the day I think most people are 'believers' in the religion they were bought up in/the country they were bought up in - it takes a big person to stand up and say i am going to think for myself.