Non-paying parents. NCMA/MM differences?

[Mouse]

I've read lots of threads on here about non-paying parents/late payments & the differing advice people are given by NCMA and MM.

NCMA does seem to come down on the side of the parent & says you have to give written request for payment, leave it a week & only then can you give notice, but it has to be the 4 weeks notice. In theory you could end up carrying on working for no money.

MM advice seems to be different.

What are people's experiences of using the official routes for chasing payment? Has anyone taken a parent to court without giving 4 weeks notice? Has anyone given 4 weeks notice, followed NCMA rules and still not won? Will NCMA support you if you don't follow their advice, or have you got to do it their way?

I'd have thought that if you have it in your contract that payment is due on a certain date & it isn't received, parents are in breech of the contract & you could terminate it immediately.

Luckily I don't have a problem with this, but I am interested to hear people's experiences.

[wellybelly]

I'm interested too, but I have to say I've not had a problem (yet!). I'm with the NCMA but I too have heard about other childminders being let down by the NCMA and coming out penniless. It should'nt need to get to 5 weeks, surley?

I think realisitically I would have a big problem caring for a child who I know I am not getting paid to care for (or very unlikley to be paid for) and would have to refuse.

I am keen to hear what others have done.

[Pipsqueak]

I can only comment about NCMA but my experiences are:

a big fat zero of help from them on two occasions,

I had to chase NCMA hard (when they promised to ring me back, comment on my emails etc) to get minimal and very non-committal advice. and yes it all did seem in favour of the parent - the parent who has breached contract and threatened me etc. The 'advice' (and I use that term loosely) was all about what I can't say/do.

NCMA won't touch (become involved) in anything under £150 owing and you still have to do the warning letter and then the notice period etc.

NCMA do not allow minders to add on late/non payment additional fees - as they say the courts won't accept it (apparently what we charge is above the rate of inflation and thats a no-no..... I did query that many large and other companies add on even more extortionate fees and the courts seem to accept that).

NCMA do not appear to help you once its gone to court - after that you are on your own, so if parents do not pay up if you win - you are on your own still.

You have to use NCMA paperwork and the contracts seem weighted in the favour of parents. I have seen MM paperwork and its much more childminder friendly

All in all NCMA (legal dept) - the supposed organisation representing childminders is actually quite naff!

[moogster1a]

as I've posted before, MM were fantastic when I had someone refusing to pay 4 weeks notice. they told me to stop care immediately if I wanted to, sent me the money owed, and then chased it up themselves.
I was told that if it went to court, I would basically just have to supply a copy of the contract and written statemnet, and they'd do all the rest.
Their contracts are very comprehensive, with a space to write your own extras, and they include a late payment fee option. Their attitude is definitely if the contract has been signed, both parties stick to it. After all, it is then a legally binding contract agreed to by both sides. The MM man actually told me that if the parent didn't like the terms, then tough, she shouldn't have signed it!
I'm a big fan as you can tell!

[wellybelly]

That is shocking! I'm really amazed by this as they come accross so professional and for the childminder. I'm now seriously considering moving to MM as going by others experiences, I really don't want to be in that situation. Like I said above, I've not had a problem but It's nice to know you're covered.

Is it MM Public Liabilty that covers you or do you need to be a member like the NCMA?

Thanks x

[Hebs]

a big fat zero of help from them on two occasions,

same here parent owes me £1300 and has been going on over a year now they are useless

[moogster1a]

it's the insurance that covers you with MM. you don't need to be a member. In fact, I'm not sure if they do a membership as such. I get all the legal help, childcare magazine etc. just through the insurance

[AliceK]

Luckily I haven't had to put MM to the test but I have heard that they will pay you and then claim it back from the parent. Also in the MM contracts it states that if fees are not paid then I can suspend care of their child until it is. Suits me, I'm not going to work for no pay.

xxxxxx

[Pipsqueak]

Think I might give NCMA a call and ask them why MM can and do offer the otpion of suspending childcare when there is non payment. and then also ask them if I write it on the contract would that be acceptable.

the fact of the matter is why on earth should be be bound to a contract when its already been breached - if a parent breaches it then surely the parent is giving up the protection of a contract.


hmm yes, think I might call.... will come back soon

[Hebs]

Think I might give NCMA a call and ask them why MM can and do offer the otpion of suspending childcare when there is non payment. and then also ask them if I write it on the contract would that be acceptable.

the fact of the matter is why on earth should be be bound to a contract when its already been breached - if a parent breaches it then surely the parent is giving up the protection of a contract.


hmm yes, think I might call.... will come back soon

also ask them why our contracts dont protect us minders so are they really worth the paper they are written on???
and what do we get for the money we pay to be with them?

[sarah707]

it's the insurance that covers you with MM. you don't need to be a member. In fact, I'm not sure if they do a membership as such. I get all the legal help, childcare magazine etc. just through the insurance

Morton Michel are first and foremost an insurance company.

they have added extras to tempt childminders into their company like a free online magazine, money off vouchers for lots of different things, a childcare club, paperwork if you want to use it etc.

Moogster is not the only member to speak highly of them when there's been a payment problem.

Hth

[Mouse]

This is very interesting.

What I have often thought is that NCMA seem to tell us we must do things a certain way (eg. not charging for bank hols unless we work them, having to give notice to a non-payer) and we tend to assume that's how things have to be done. Surely though, if MM can do things differently, it's not set in stone and we should be able to make up our own minds.

If I put something reasonable in a contract and a parents agrees to it & signs it, surely that is between me & the parent, not NCMA.

[Mouse]

Morton Michel are first and foremost an insurance company.

they have added extras to tempt childminders into their company like a free online magazine, money off vouchers for lots of different things, a childcare club, paperwork if you want to use it etc.

Moogster is not the only member to speak highly of them when there's been a payment problem.

Hth

I wonder if anyone does both - NCMA for membership, but MM for insurance? It's something I might consider if it's possible.

[Mrs_F]

So MM would be the best ones to get the insurance through then? I always thought NCMA would be good

[sarah707]

I wonder if anyone does both - NCMA for membership, but MM for insurance? It's something I might consider if it's possible.

I was looking to join Ncma as a member recently.

The best quote they could give me was £50 and that was after negotiating

I thought that was a lot of money for 4 magazines a year as I wouldn't need all the other benefits (I get them with MM)

I'm still thinking about it

[sarah707]

So MM would be the best ones to get the insurance through then? I always thought NCMA would be good

The NCMA are a national charity who lobby on behalf of childminders.

They speak to government, get involved in all kinds of policy decisions etc.

They also offer their members an insurance package as part of their membership.

Morton Michel on the other hand are an insurance company who also offer added extras for childminders.

It's a matter of personal preference

[Mouse]

I was looking to join Ncma as a member recently.

The best quote they could give me was £50 and that was after negotiating

I thought that was a lot of money for 4 magazines a year as I wouldn't need all the other benefits (I get them with MM)

I'm still thinking about it

I think my problem is that I have been with NCMA forever and am finding it hard to cut the apron strings

[Hebs]

its all too confusing for me

do MM give you public liability too??

if so what does the membership to NCMA actually give you (besides the magazines)

[sarah707]

its all too confusing for me

do MM give you public liability too??

Yes it's a full insurance package

if so what does the membership to NCMA actually give you (besides the magazines)

You need to read your latest magazine!

There's a full page ad on the benefits of using the NCMA!!

Hth......

[Pipsqueak]

OK - just been on the phone:


NCMA (legal line) says:

the contracts are done up under 'contract law'.
the reason why we should not (nor do they advise) to suspend contract is due to the parent then being able to counter-sue for loss of earnings. effectively you would be in breach of contract should you do this. It has (apparently) been proved in court (childminders) when a minder has suspended service due to non payment the parent counter-sued and won. The childminder ended up losing her side (although it was agreed that the parent had breached contract) - ended up owing the parent money that she had lost (parent earned more than the minder!!).

I asked if we could write it on the contract - no they do not think it would stand up in a court of law.

I asked why MM can and do offer it - NCMA Legal Line response:
as far as they are aware, MM are not solicitors and they do not think they have the same success rate as NCMA
they cannot and do not guarantee to recover monies owed, (I said about MM paying the minder and then pursing the money themselves)



I queried the £150 limit - legal line directed me back to NCMA

So I spoke to NCMA (advising them of this thread and similar on this forum )

they are horrified to discover minders are disgruntled with the apparent lack of support and the limit of £150. The reason it is set at £150 is to do with the cost of a barrister etc.

they advise that everyone who is not happy with what they are providing (contracts weighted in the favour of parents) and what experiences they have had (ie naff service, lack of communication, having to effectively and potentially work for nearly 5 weeks with no money when there is a non-paying parent in accordance with the 'rules' set out etc etc etc) , to email them at:

info@*************

Please everyone - do email them as they point out this is the only way they become aware of issues like this and the only way they can attempt to resolve/look into what affects us most.

NCMA for the main DOES represent childminders and they do do lots of good work on our behalf - but they need our feedback (NCMA member or not)
I