Non payers

**Nogin** · 15-05-2014, 05:52 PM

Hi all, this is my first post so please be gentle...

My wife has been childminding for about 12 years now, it one of those jobs where it takes over your lives completely, there are days when I feel like I'm living in a kids nursery. It got to be the hardest work of any profession as you never can walk away from it even when you are relaxing at home with a glass of wine or beer you look around and there are signs of child care all over the house.

Well over the last 12 years we've has some parents who push their luck when it comes to paying, but I have a lady now who is 2 months in debit. She has paid about £70 of £400 owed through child care vouchers, she said I'll speak to my husband and he will clear the rest with his child care vouchers. As nothing arrived my wife called him and he hadn't got a clue what she was talking about. So we are in a predicament! Now I know that their kids go to a variety of child care providers my wife being one, a pre school and nursery being the others. I'm also aware they have just brought a large house in the village and 2 spanking new cars all on finance. She has gone from full time to a part time job to 1 day a week and he I cannot see earning more than £40k, plus the firm he works for is shedding jobs like nobody's business.

To top it off in 2 weeks they will be getting another £200 invoice for child care. Knowing these people and they way they live I don't think they have the money and I think we are being fobbed off now. I have a feeling their brain is writing cheques their body cannot cash, which is odd as in the past they have been good payers.
The other twist is several of their circle of friends/family come to my wife for child care and whilst their invoices are lower maybe £40 per month they too are paying when it suits them ie every 2 or three months.

My wife does not want to cause a storm, we know these people as they live in our village but they owe us a fair old wack now and soon it will be even more.
I confess that I'm less diplomatic... But do not want to risk ruining her business.

My lovely wife is the only full time childminder in our village which is why her business is so good, several have started and given up because of the hard work involved. I see it first hand as I work shifts so sometimes can be at home with a house full of screaming kids and it bugs me when people take advantage of her good nature.

So any suggestions on how to deal with this with out destroying her reputation, bearing in mind the people we are talking about are very popular in the village.

**tigwig** · 15-05-2014, 09:13 PM

Hello and welcome to the forum

Not a nice predicament for your wife or you to be in. If it were me I would start straight away with a firm letter to all parents informing them of payment terms. I would not be providing childcare for anyone who hadnt paid and would not be accepting excuses. These parents that your wife has at the moment sound to me like they are totally taking the mick and get away with it because there are no consequences and your wife is too nice and puts up with it! I can appreciate you are both concerned about becoming 'nasty' with the non paying parents and how they will all gossip but the alternative to that is you do nothing, your wife continues to work for free and you feel more and more demoralised.
You both have the power to change things now! I presume contracts are in place with late fees? If so you must apply them and do not allow any more exceptions. If not bring the parents in for a contract review and state your new terms and conditions. If they dont like it then tough! If they all leave will you be much worse off if they aren't paying anyway? Your wife is better off without them. I'm sure she can hold her head high with your support and find people who respect her and the service she provides. Childminding shouldn't be like you describe. Everyone has someone who is late paying but for it to be all of them it takes the biscuit! I wish you luck, please dont put up with this any longer.

**KatieFS** · 15-05-2014, 09:58 PM

I have a couple of families who are always late paying. One is a friend and is a small contract ending this July so won't rock the boat. I have chased payment a few times then is paid,
Other family their vouchers don't clear until after my payment date, so yes technically late but I let it go.
Personally I don't feel you should be on a position to be owed money, such an emotive thing.
Parents get a text if not in by end of play that day - so send txt nxt working day. This usually does the trick. If not then I would be thinking about sending a letter on day 3, then consider suspending services.

**mrsb79** · 16-05-2014, 05:56 AM

Hi I so feel for you and your wife your right we work extremely hard looking after these parent precious children yet they are not always willing to pay on time or at all. I've been stung several times and it turns you sour and less trusting of new clients which makes me feel awful. I ask for payments in advance but someone will always slide, but I act professional and stick to my guns and pull out the contract they have signed and refer them to my policy then I show them my insurance document stating my limit for legal fees and stress that is the last resort but they must understand that whilst I love my job it is meant to contribute to putting food on my table and a roof over my head which if I'm not paid soon could be at risk then there will be no childcare at all. It does seem harsh but it's true. I would write each parent a letter stating that you would like a meeting so that you can make a repayment plan if your wife doesn't want to lose these families. Get your policies and procedures out know your stuff and get harsh no fees no childcare I've just lost two mindees due to this but I'm glad I stuck to my guns otherwise how long would I have put up with it. Good luck hope you get what your owed.

**Kiddleywinks** · 16-05-2014, 06:39 AM

If one client is already 2 months behind, how would allowing them to be 3 months behind benefit your wife or her business?

First of all check your contract - do you have a 'no fee no care' clause?
If so, use it!
It may well be a small amount of money in some instances, £40 a month, but it is money that is owed, it is money that is outstanding, and it is not the parents prerogative to decide when they pay. I doubt they go shopping and tell the store they'll be back to pay in a couple of months time

I'm afraid it's your wife that is going to have to get her head around saying 'no more' because until she does, nothing is going to change.
It's not easy, but, I agree with tigwig, no parents are better than non paying ones.
At least with no parents you know there's nothing coming in and can adjust your lifestyle to suit, advertising can be stepped up.
With non paying ones, you're stressed, working, more stressed, and don't know when or if you're getting paid this week, next week, never......

The only reputation she'll be destroying is the one that's saying she's a mug - and that's worth getting rid of

**tess1981** · 16-05-2014, 07:39 AM

Maybe suggest she puts it in a letter. Face to face is not for everyone but she Wi resent working with the children if she is not . getting paid.

**Nogin** · 16-05-2014, 07:52 AM

Thanks for the kind words advice and support.

I always knew this would come and what really bugs me I'd the lady who owes the £400 is the one we have done so much with as her daughter has Downs, my wife has worked to put things in place and go on courses at our expence to make sure everything is done right.

I think one of the issues is my wife does not do confrontation, she has had this before and they have paid but not to this extent.
It just saddens me that local people can do this, we are a smallish village all friends. If it's not cleared by next week I'll be dealing with them so my wife can take a step back.

So many of the parents use us as a stop gap and emergency childcare, simply because a childminder is more flexible than a nursery or preschool yet it's the same parents who keep changing times, hours and phone up for last moment child care that are the ones that pay late or badly.

I must confess even my wife is thinking it's not worth doing any more and after 12 years of providing the best child care she can is thinking of calling it a day.

Sad really because he has loved every moment of the child minding but not the constant chasing of invoices.

**bunyip** · 16-05-2014, 08:17 AM

Hi Nogin

First, my declaration of interest. I too am a bloke (and a straight-talking-not-entirely-diplomatic-one-at-that); and a husband; and a childminder; and an erstwhile shift-worker (well over a decade on the railways). I can, at least figuratively speaking, 'feel your pain'. Oh, and I also live in a village full of gossips.................and, quite frankly, they can go do one with/to themselves.

I have to say I agree with pretty much everything already said on this thread.

Putting it straight, I'd take up what Kiddleywinks has already said. You do need to go out and destroy that reputation. No offence, but the reputation of bending over backwards to please whilst payment remains strictly optional, that's not the reputation you or your wife need. That's nt a business, it's a doormat.

The best way to ruin the business would be to do nothing: keep haemorraging money and growing that wrong reputation.

As members have already said: check contract and apply late fees, withholding of care, etc. You should also take legal advice (through your insurer or professional representative body) on what measures you can take within the contract to enforce it and recover the moneys due.

I very much hope I'm wrong, but the fees/debt situation does not look good. The clients are clearly living beyond their resources, which means you may well win a case to be repaid, but not see much of the money if they lack the ability to reply. Again, take legal advice on this. But it does make me think the important thing may well turn out to that of cutting your losses sooner rather than later.

I'm guessing that part of the reluctance to do this is based on fear: fear of reputation and 'talk around the village'. Don't be afraid of reputation issues cos, as said, you're already acquiring the sort of reputation you don't need. On the plus side, new clients shouldn't be a problem. With 12 years' experience, I'm sure your wife is an excellent CM, plus she has the advantage of being 'the only show in town' - succeeding where others have come and gone.

Don't be dictated to by fear of the village gossips. Their 'good opinion' isn't worth having and neither are the potential clients who'll listen to their cr4p. I have a situation with one of the village notables bad-mouthing me: because I gave a statement to the police when she drove on the pavement and nearly ran down a mum and baby in pushchair. I do not need the business of her friends who are cracked enough to believe her, and I'm quite willing to explain why.

Also, man to man, go easy on your wife and on yourself. On Mrs Nogin because (and as an 'incomer' to the world of childcare, I find this quite unique) one of the hardest things in CMing is reconciling the diametric opposites contained within the phrase "childcare business". I think we all struggle along in between the 'caring for children' side and the 'making a living out of the job' side - it can pull us apart sometimes. Be easy on yourself because you are also being pulled by the need to have a home in which you can relax after shifts (goD, shift work can be draining) and still give total loving support to your lovely wife. Total honesty will help, as well as having a realistic view of the situation and the possibilities. Remember you're a team. Decide to tackle this, and also write a list of everything she does well - so you both know why her business is well worth protecting.

Hope you can work it all out - together.

**rickysmiths** · 16-05-2014, 10:21 AM

Oh dear. I was in your place a few years ago and without support I terminated the contract immediately on the basis that the parent had broken its terms by not paying me. She left owing me over £300 and went on to use another local cm who she left owing over £1000! I had had similar problems over the preceding 10 years I had been minding though less amounts. This one was the last straw.

I decided I wasn't go to let this happen again so I wrote a robust Fees and Payments Policy which I quoted on my Contracts and got the parents to sign to say they had 'Read, Agreed to and Received a copy of' the Policy. I also added in a Late Payment Fee and explained I gave three strikes and then applied it.

I have used the Pacey Contracts for years and on page 4 of these there is a lot more detail now. There is a space to list all your Policies so the really do form part of the Contract. There is a section that gives details of why the Contract may be terminated with immediate effect or within a time frame that you decide.One of the reasons given is non payment of fees and it states that if payment is more than xxxxxx days late then the provision of childcare ceases after this time.

As other have said I would send this couple a letter detailing the outstanding money and explaining that these fees are due now and that it is only xxxx days before a payment of xxxxxx will be due. That you feel you have been very patient regarding payments but that as per the Contract they have to be paid and you expect full payment within the next 7 days or you will be forced to seek legal advise as to collecting the fees.

I would ring the Legal Dept of your Public Liability Insurance company and ask for their support as well though they will have expected you to do all you can to recover the money so I would still send a letter. I would hand deliver it so you are sure it has been handed to them or gone through their letter box.

It must be hard in a small environment I grew up in a small village and you couldn't move without everyone knowing and it was awful when I went out with my first boyfriend who was from the same village!! I would rise above the gossips and the ones who enjoy trying to destroy reputations everyone knows who they are and real people only pay lip service to them anyway because like you, they know these people are not worth the paper they are written on.

I agree with Bunyip. Childminding is team work. I couldn't have done this job for the 20 years I have without the full support of my husband and my children they have been my rocks when things have got tough with the very few (thankfully) horrible parents I have encountered. Though you can never tell just had one leave, I gave the proper notice and thought all was well, even suggested a cm who they are using and she threatened me with Ofsted a couple of days ago because she wants money back!! (none due) Not pleased when I wrote and explained Ofsted would be interested. Was happy when she chose to pay me late and wanted to swap days and not pay for the day lost etc etc.!!!!

Good luck.

**Jayse74** · 19-05-2014, 01:34 PM

Been there and had all of this. I work with my Wife and I will be honest you have to compromise a few things.

As for non-payers and wee-wee takers (don't want to be rude lol) can damage hard won respect and reputations by telling white lies to others. Always seems like a small select few who just have no respect.

Had one lad who was a terror to others, hard work and needed constant 1-to-1 even in school. The parent just walked one day and never paid us for no reason. No falling out, no complaint nothing. We did try and find out why but she just blanked us which was really odd. I can only assume the same thing has happend again elsewhere as it now appears she has dropped the nursery childcare she was using and is now looking for somebody right on our doorstop (that alone is a kick in the guts imho). If she clears the outstanding fee's we will happily take him on again but the problem is now the amount of time that has past and the worry she will do it again. Judging by how she treated the nursery.

I cannot understand why this happend tbh. But white lies get banded about and people never admit things. This is why we now decide if a parent openly puts down their old childminder or nursery we decide the parent is not good for us.

**Nogin** · 19-05-2014, 07:10 PM

Oh well, still nothing from the big invoice that owed. The other one has paid this month, but forgot to to include last month and the other has also not cleared last months.

I'm starting to loose my rag! Lol

**Nogin** · 20-05-2014, 06:26 AM

Well that was interesting! I'm not a curtain twitcher but this morning we heard a noise out side by our car and there was a Balif clamping the lady opposite, she is one of the people who owes us a small amount of money!

Well he has obviously been paid as the clamp was removed and paperwork handed over after a bit of a heated discussion.

Crikey, it all happening in our little village!

**tess1981** · 20-05-2014, 07:00 AM

You may clamp something until they pay your bill lol

**Nogin** · 20-05-2014, 07:11 AM

Lol Tess if the parents thought that they would leave their kids here and not pay until they were 18 and ready for university!

**Kiddleywinks** · 20-05-2014, 07:17 AM

Isn't that kinda what they are doing now?

**tess1981** · 20-05-2014, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Nogin

Lol Tess if the parents thought that they would leave their kids here and not pay until they were 18 and ready for university!

Oh hell no not their kids.... We are not that silly... try their purse and wallet lol

**Nogin** · 20-05-2014, 07:23 AM

Some days I think it is!

There are some kids who we seem to organise everything for, bags, school trips, we let the parents know they pay the cheque. We even have to remind the parent what the child is doing at school!

I keep saying that we should offer a text message reminder service at £1 a shot!

I do wonder how these parents cope at weekends?