Question of parental rights

[jadavi]

A parent I have has asked me not to release her child into the care of the dad. is she permitted to do this? There is no court case up till now.

[FussyElmo]

No we are not allowed to refuse a dad collecting his child without a court order in place.

As long as he has PR which only a court can take away then the Dad has the same rights as the mother.

Its hard when we are asked to be in the middle. You can stall the dad if he comes to collect but that's all you can do

[cathtee]

If the father is on the birth certificate and there are no written court orders to prove no contact then I'm afraid we have no powers of refusal, obviously if you have never met the father (I have a child in these circumstances whose father I haven't met) then you wouldn't allow him to take child anyway he could be anyone.

On another note if he turns up abusive or you think he may be under the influence of drink etc then you would call the police for your and the child safety.

I don't like being put into these situations I hope it turns out ok.

[Tulip]

What a horrible position to be put in, has he collected in the past?

[jadavi]

Thanks that's what I suspected

This is gonna be a tough one ....

[Kiddleywinks]

You need to make it crystal clear to mum that without an official court order (NOT just a solicitors letter) or unless you believe the child to be at risk (dad is abusive or under the influence) you can not refuse him.
Reassure her you will contact her immediately, but that is as much as you can do legally.

If mum has obtained a court order, you would need a copy of it for the child's file, and you would show that to a police officer who would back you in not allowing the child to leave should it come to that

I have a similar problem with a family at the moment, dad has sole PR for a period of 12 months. Fortunately, mum doesn't live in the area so is unlikely to come knocking, but I have a copy of the court order just in case.

[Shamai]

I have been in a similar situation and like others have said you cannot withhold a child from a parent where there is no court order to say otherwise. If you do withhold the child, you can then be charged with kidnapping. You need to make sure Mum knows that you have no option but to hand the child over to its father if he turns up at your doorstep. If the Mum is worried, she needs to get something legal put in place to protect the child.

[caz3007]

I suddenly got a text from a mum a month or so ago saying if dad collects please don't let him take LO. I have had lots of dealings with this dad. I explained to her unless there was a court order I couldn't stop him taking LO but would let her know if he turned up, she did say that she thought that would be the case. Luckily he didn't and things seem to have smoothed over now.

[bunyip]

Previous posts have already been clear on the issue of PR and court orders. Just a few additional points to add.

Make it clear to mum that you can't take sides and she must not put you under pressure. Don't even get sucked into being mum's free counselling service or shoulder to cry on, etc. It's an easy mistake to make out of the best of intentions, but it's not what we're trained for. Do have contact details in case either parent needs a referral for such professional services, refuge, support, etc. IIWY I'd point out that her merely asking you to unlawfully deny paternal access could represent a 'cause for concern' and might be considered unfavourably by the courts - so best if she doesn't ask you again and thereby oblige you to officially record it as a concern.

Don't be intimidated by solicitor's letters. I had this with an ad hoc client. Tbh I was absolutely furious. I called the law firm and made it clear that I would refer any future attempts at manipulation/intimidation to the Law Society and family court as an attempt to prejudice the father's and children's rights.

Finally, this is a combined personal gripe and piece of advice. Please don't join with the commonly-witnessed attitude (sadly present sometimes on the forum) that the father is somehow any more likely than the mother to turn up being "threatening" or "abusive." I know this advice is always well-meant, but we'd all do well to remember that the vast majority of parents actually love their children and treat CMs and other adults with respect. A tiny proportion of dads can be threatening and abusive, and so can a tiny proportion of mums. It might happen less often if the attitudes of self-professed "professionals" were less prejudiced.

[cathtee]

Finally, this is a combined personal gripe and piece of advice. Please don't join with the commonly-witnessed attitude (sadly present sometimes on the forum) that the father is somehow any more likely than the mother to turn up being "threatening" or "abusive." I know this advice is always well-meant, but we'd all do well to remember that the vast majority of parents actually love their children and treat CMs and other adults with respect. A tiny proportion of dads can be threatening and abusive, and so can a tiny proportion of mums. It might happen less often if the attitudes of self-professed "professionals" were less prejudiced.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to cause offence, it was not a generalized assumption but what I was warned about what may occur by a parent.

[caz3007]

Finally, this is a combined personal gripe and piece of advice. Please don't join with the commonly-witnessed attitude (sadly present sometimes on the forum) that the father is somehow any more likely than the mother to turn up being "threatening" or "abusive." I know this advice is always well-meant, but we'd all do well to remember that the vast majority of parents actually love their children and treat CMs and other adults with respect. A tiny proportion of dads can be threatening and abusive, and so can a tiny proportion of mums. It might happen less often if the attitudes of self-professed "professionals" were less prejudiced.

I do agree here. I have two LO's on my books and both have not so nice dads according to mums, but both dads have always been courteous and friendly with me, they have no reason to be any other way.

Having said that, my ex husband was violent and we ran a pub. After I finally left him so many people came up to me and asked why I had left such a decent man.........no one knows what goes on behind closed doors but unless we actually have first hand experience of the dads of the children in our care being abusive I don't think we are in a position to judge

[dawn100]

I think firstly you need to find out if dad does have parental responsibility (its not an automatic unless they were married or both names on birth cert after 2003 I believe) and point out to mum if she lies about this it could come back to bite her at future court / legal proceedings. If he does have pr then you need to let mum know you can't refuse to let him pick up the child. We have to be careful not to get sucked into these situations as both dads and mums can be guilty of making lies up about the other to win points in getting what they want. Sometimes people can far too easily take everything the mum says as 100% truth and not believe the dad at all because a mother wouldn't be abusive to their partner or harm a child. Sadly i know from personal experience these misconceptions can really hinder in protecting children.

[bunyip]

I'm sorry I didn't mean to cause offence, it was not a generalized assumption but what I was warned about what may occur by a parent.

Hi Cathtee

No, I wasn't offended - and I hope I wasn't taken as being offensive either.

I know some men can be like this. When I was a child, we once had to provide temporary refuge for my cousin - and her boyfriend turned up and got nasty, so I know what it can be like. OTOH, the client I mentioned who got her solicitors to write to me to stop her ex seeing the boys - well the father seemed OK when I eventually met him. that said, I accept some people can adopt a pleasant enough demeanour when it suits them.

No, just one of my bugbears that we're supposed to be anti-prejuduced. But both society and the family courts somehow seem to get away with a presumption of guilt toward fathers, or at least assume certain different attributes toward mums and dads, until proven otherwise.

[bunyip]

I think firstly you need to find out if dad does have parental responsibility (its not an automatic unless they were married or both names on birth cert after 2003 I believe) and point out to mum if she lies about this it could come back to bite her at future court / legal proceedings. If he does have pr then you need to let mum know you can't refuse to let him pick up the child. We have to be careful not to get sucked into these situations as both dads and mums can be guilty of making lies up about the other to win points in getting what they want. Sometimes people can far too easily take everything the mum says as 100% truth and not believe the dad at all because a mother wouldn't be abusive to their partner or harm a child. Sadly i know from personal experience these misconceptions can really hinder in protecting children.

From a legal/regulatory standpoint, we really need to establish who has PR before we commence caring for the child.

This can be quite a tricky subject. One hardly likes to take this sort of intrusive, personal line of questioning with parents you've only just met and are trying to appear friendly and positive. For many of us, it's the first cold shock of business/legal/safeguarding that needs to be injected into the relationship.

It's difficult if there's only 1 parent turning up to sign the forms, and doubly so if there is a lone parent per se. Do we really start asking to see marriage certificates, etc. ?

[dawn100]

From a legal/regulatory standpoint, we really need to establish who has PR before we commence caring for the child.

This can be quite a tricky subject. One hardly likes to take this sort of intrusive, personal line of questioning with parents you've only just met and are trying to appear friendly and positive. For many of us, it's the first cold shock of business/legal/safeguarding that needs to be injected into the relationship.

It's difficult if there's only 1 parent turning up to sign the forms, and doubly so if there is a lone parent per se. Do we really start asking to see marriage certificates, etc. ?

You are correct that it is something we should find out and in my la they are very hot on checking that we do have a place on our paperwork where it is recorded but I know some cm who don't like to ask or see the importance. My la advice is that if a single parent turns up we are not there to investigate them but should point out to them they are obliged to fill the form in correctly and that if they lie on the form it can come back to bite them. Some single parents themselves may be unsure whether the dad actually has parental responsibilty or not, the informationon who has pr can be found out on a government website.
I don't think we should be asking for evidence but we should be asking the parent the question and just like all the information we ask them to fill in.

[bunyip]

I don't just rely on the PR statement on the pacey contracts any longer, cos sometimes only one parent comes to sign it. I send a separate PR declaration form home with the child record form, consents, etc. so at least both parents get a chance to see everything - and I ask both parents to sign them, even if only one of them signs the contract.

Still not easy with lone/separated parents though, so my system is far from foolproof.

I've begun asking the parents face-to-face if they actually know what PR means and who has it. I did this after a mum brought back forms and declared, "we filled it all in, but didn't understand half of it." I then asked all my other clients if their contracts, etc. needed to be explained retrospectively - and PR was one of the points that most were not 100% clear about. And yet they'd all signed without asking. (Why do people sign things like that ? )

As you say, the government website gives details (IIRC it's on DirectGov ?)

[cathtee]

[QUOTE=bunyip;1330431]Hi Cathtee

No, I wasn't offended - and I hope I wasn't taken as being offensive either.

HI Bunyip,

No I didn't take it the wrong way either, Picking up the point of PR our LA says we have to have PR form signed and also we have to see the Birth certificate for proof, It can be quite embarressing asking to see it but so far my parents have understood.

[LauraS]

I have my own pr form that I ask to be filled in. It has links to the direct.gov information and spells out what pr is and who might have it, and both parents sign if they are together. I don't ask for birth certificate proof routinely but might do if I felt the situation warranted it.