2,3 & 4 year old funding

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Following on from Sumona's thread - is there anything from the Government that states the LA's MUST let good and outstanding take the funding or is it just guidance?

Any proof would be appreciated as I feel I am asking and challenging for something that hasn't been made law yet.

Simona - I know you are working hard on this and may have the correct up to date information.

[4365]

Hi, Yes it is really confusing calling it Statutory Guidance and this is how they tried to fob me off at first. The first part of the link explains how statutory guidance should almost always be followed and can only be deviated from with very good reason (not just because your LA don't like it.)

When is guidance

As an individual it is really hard to fight your LA this is where PACEY should be helping out. They didn't. But just writing very strong emails and stating what bits of the Guidance the LA were not planning to follow (and by 1st Sept) and that I would use the Local Government Ombudsman did the trick. You should ask what reason they are giving for not following the Statutory Guidance in full because you are going to the LGO if they don't provide a very good reason. The LAs must follow it from 1st Sept because although it is not law, the Guidance is there to say how existing law is to be interpreted so the LA meets their statutory duties. It also replaces existing guidance so LAs cannot say they are just following older guidance. LAs are trying every excuse to get out of this so cms must be ready and say that they have to follow this new statutory guidance or else!

Do you have a cm group you can work with? Do any of you have contacts with legal experience who can write a "legal" letter? I see that in the last few days my LA and others are backing down and putting the Guidance into place. Hopefully that will help to and force the remainder to reconsider. If you pm your email I have a letter written by two of "my" parents which you might be able to alter and send to your LA.

Anni

[Simona]

Following on from Sumona's thread - is there anything from the Government that states the LA's MUST let good and outstanding take the funding or is it just guidance?

Any proof would be appreciated as I feel I am asking and challenging for something that hasn't been made law yet.

Simona - I know you are working hard on this and may have the correct up to date information.

Hi Chatterbox
The guidance is statutory from 1 Sept therefore you can compare it to the EYFS which is statutory too...can anyone deviate from that?? I think NOT

In a way the LAs are correct in being worried about ALL cms doing the funding as some may not as good as their grade says...remember they were graded on the old inspection framework
Having said that the govt has decided that it all goes on Ofsted grades and LAs must follow...what can they do?
2 year olds need spaces and drawing funding for 3 and 4 year olds will lower cost to parents who were not able to access funding through their non accredited cm...while we are so keen to join all this we also lose money

Judging by what has been reported today I don't think this govt will get it all its way and things may change again (my view) but, at the moment, it is your right to draw funding...so keep the dialogue open with your LA

Thank you for all your feedback...it helps others feel confident and supported about approaching their LA

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Hi Anni

Thanks for the link - great information in there.

My LA are not refusing to give the funding, just that they need to go to a Committee first and that doesn't meet until September etc... (see below their reply)

We as a Local Authority have only just rec’d this guidance and at this moment we are looking into the best way to proceed with this.

As this is such short notice and will have an impact on the current budget which has been set for this year we will need to consult with the finance team. Who would then need to submit new budget proposals to Schools Forum, as this is the procedure for funding which is offered through the dedicated schools grant. Schools Forum usually meet on a termly basis and I believe the next meeting is not planned until September.

Also processes will need to be put into place to deliver this, all of which takes time.

With all of this in mind we will more than likely need to consult with childminders and other agencies regarding a planned timescale for this.

What does everyone think of this?

I am being supported on this but I wanted more information which I am grateful for.

[Simona]

Chatterbox....The LAs have known for a long time what they were expected to do
Truss wrote to them on 8 July and the Guidance was published on 17 July...however they DfE does correspond with them regularly

I heard from the DfE itself on 4 Dec 2012 conference and again at the pacey London event (were you there?) and also at the June conference about what LAs were expected to do

The talk of funding is nonsense as this has been in place for a while for 2013-2014...it doesn't happen at the last minute

Your LA is using delaying tactics, as was mine but has now acted, as far as I can see...up to them but they are accountable to the DfE if they do not place all the 2 yo.
You can always write to the DfE and ask for clarification or wait for your LA to get their act together.....I also think Pacey are trying to discover which LAs are being difficult.

I really resent the fact that cms have been left to battle the LAs on their own...very unfair

[4365]

My LA gave me a similar response at first. Ask them - does this mean you won't be following the statutory guidance on 1st Sept? It is not for them to set their own timetable, they must meet the guidance "deadline." One of the things you can complain to the LGO about is not implementing things in time and delaying decisions. Ask about how you will claim compensation for lost business if they don't implement it in time? Unfortunately you have to be very confrontational to get a change in attitude and action in my experience.

[Simona]

My LA gave me a similar response at first. Ask them - does this mean you won't be following the statutory guidance on 1st Sept? It is not for them to set their own timetable, they must meet the guidance "deadline." One of the things you can complain to the LGO about is not implementing things in time and delaying decisions. Ask about how you will claim compensation for lost business if they don't implement it in time? Unfortunately you have to be very confrontational to get a change in attitude and action in my experience.

4365...very sad the very LAs who should back cms are now to 'be confronted'...what a sad state of affairs for cms
It worked for me to confront them but I would have preferred to feel 'valued and included' in the scheme without having to get so stressed and cross

I am losing faith in the system...I bet my local Sainsbury's would treat me better...we must soldier on though...perseverance works!

[blue bear]

Spoke to development worker yesterday. She said from September all registered providers will be able to take funding for 3 and 4 year olds unless graded satisfactory or unsatisfactory.
She said she was not so clued up on two year olds but thought the la could put a local training/qualification proviso on providing funding

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Does this sound too harsh?

Dear Ladies

I know that I have had discussions with Denise regarding the provision of funding to 2 years olds.

I have been talking to childminders all over the country and it it my understanding that the statutory guidance from the Government to all Local Authorities is that childminders with good/outstanding can deliver funding as of 1st September 2013 and not have to be part of a network and it seems that as I have 2 children waiting to draw on the 3/4 year old funding I should be able to without the need of competing paperwork through Trio.

I also understand from Denise that there may be an issue on funds but I am not asking for anything new but access to the 3/4 year old funding that should already be allocated to the children living in our borough.

Below is the link that I have been provided with showing the above and I would be grateful if you could look at this again so that I can deliver the 3/4 year old funding. I also understand that if there is going to be a problem with this then I have to take my complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman which seems a bit excessive seeing that the council has been so supportive of childminders.

When is guidance


I hope that this can be sorted quickly.



Kind regards





Debbie

[Chatterbox Childcare]

all sent now so wait and see....

[Simona]

Does this sound too harsh?

Dear Ladies

I know that I have had discussions with Denise regarding the provision of funding to 2 years olds.

I have been talking to childminders all over the country and it it my understanding that the statutory guidance from the Government to all Local Authorities is that childminders with good/outstanding can deliver funding as of 1st September 2013 and not have to be part of a network and it seems that as I have 2 children waiting to draw on the 3/4 year old funding I should be able to without the need of competing paperwork through Trio.

I also understand from Denise that there may be an issue on funds but I am not asking for anything new but access to the 3/4 year old funding that should already be allocated to the children living in our borough.

Below is the link that I have been provided with showing the above and I would be grateful if you could look at this again so that I can deliver the 3/4 year old funding. I also understand that if there is going to be a problem with this then I have to take my complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman which seems a bit excessive seeing that the council has been so supportive of childminders.

When is guidance


I hope that this can be sorted quickly.



Kind regards





Debbie

No Chatterbox ...you are not harsh but possibly very patient and polite...I did not mention the ombudsman just that I had emailed the DfE and received contradictory information to my LA

It this makes things better...here is the email from David Fitzgerald who is the Deputy Director, Foundation Years: Free Early Education and Funding Division
Department for Education, 1st Floor, Sanctuary Buildings, Great Smith Street, London, SW1P 3BT

This is his message on 23 July

''Dear Simona

Thanks for your further questions.
The guidance says that local authorities should fund places for three and four year olds at any provider judged ‘satisfactory’ ‘good’ or ‘outstanding’ by Ofsted (assuming there is an eligible three or four year old at the provider).
The position is different for two year olds. ‘Good’ or ‘outstanding’ providers should be funded to deliver places if there is an eligible two year old taking up their place at that provider. However, places for two year olds should only be funded in ‘satisfactory’ providers if there are insufficient accessible places in ‘good’ and ‘outstanding’ providers.

There is nothing in the guidance which prevents local authorities funding places for three and four year olds if the provider chooses not to offer funded places for two year olds.

Local authorities should limit the conditions they place on ‘good’ and ‘outstanding’ providers to those set out in the guidance, that is, those which guard against the misappropriation of public funds, ensure that funded places are completely free of charge to parents, support flexible delivery of places, meet the needs of children with disabilities or special needs and keep children safe.

Although local authorities can place conditions on ‘satisfactory’ providers any conditions should be limited to those which address concerns raised by Ofsted at inspection, which will of course vary between providers.

Where the guidance talks about providers, this means childminders as much as it does group settings.
There is no requirement that childminders must be accredited, be part of a network or be qualified to level 3 in order to receive funding.
The decision whether to fund a provider should be based on the Ofsted inspection judgement as set out above.

I hope this is helpful. If you have any further questions on the detail of this, my colleague Steph (to whom I am copying this email) is the real expert.

With best wishes '' (end of email)

Does his message sound vague? ...No it is very clear especially towards the end ...maybe you could mention there have been emails with the DfE to other cms and you know you can do the funding....

Let us know how you get on.....

Bluebear...for a LA to say they are not 'clued up' is a bit like believing in fairies...that excuse does not stand!

[Chatterbox Childcare]

No Chatterbox ...you are not harsh but possibly very patient and polite...I did not mention the ombudsman just that I had emailed the DfE and received contradictory information to my LA

It this makes things better...here is the email from David Fitzgerald who is the Deputy Director, Foundation Years: Free Early Education and Funding Division
Department for Education, 1st Floor, Sanctuary Buildings, Great Smith Street, London, SW1P 3BT

This is his message on 23 July

''Dear Simona

Thanks for your further questions.
The guidance says that local authorities should fund places for three and four year olds at any provider judged ‘satisfactory’ ‘good’ or ‘outstanding’ by Ofsted (assuming there is an eligible three or four year old at the provider).
The position is different for two year olds. ‘Good’ or ‘outstanding’ providers should be funded to deliver places if there is an eligible two year old taking up their place at that provider. However, places for two year olds should only be funded in ‘satisfactory’ providers if there are insufficient accessible places in ‘good’ and ‘outstanding’ providers.

There is nothing in the guidance which prevents local authorities funding places for three and four year olds if the provider chooses not to offer funded places for two year olds.

Local authorities should limit the conditions they place on ‘good’ and ‘outstanding’ providers to those set out in the guidance, that is, those which guard against the misappropriation of public funds, ensure that funded places are completely free of charge to parents, support flexible delivery of places, meet the needs of children with disabilities or special needs and keep children safe.

Although local authorities can place conditions on ‘satisfactory’ providers any conditions should be limited to those which address concerns raised by Ofsted at inspection, which will of course vary between providers.

Where the guidance talks about providers, this means childminders as much as it does group settings.
There is no requirement that childminders must be accredited, be part of a network or be qualified to level 3 in order to receive funding.
The decision whether to fund a provider should be based on the Ofsted inspection judgement as set out above.

I hope this is helpful. If you have any further questions on the detail of this, my colleague Steph (to whom I am copying this email) is the real expert.

With best wishes '' (end of email)

Does his message sound vague? ...No it is very clear especially towards the end ...maybe you could mention there have been emails with the DfE to other cms and you know you can do the funding....

Let us know how you get on.....

Bluebear...for a LA to say they are not 'clued up' is a bit like believing in fairies...that excuse does not stand!

Thanks Simona, I will keep this up my sleeve for when they reply.

Could you give me the email address for Steph please or a contact number, which ever was provided

Thanks

[Simona]

Thanks Simona, I will keep this up my sleeve for when they reply.

Could you give me the email address for Steph please or a contact number, which ever was provided

Thanks

I have just emailed her listing the various conditions/barriers cms are meeting...when she replies I will ask if I can pass her email to others...just to be sure she doesn't mind

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Well got an answer very quickly but not the one I wanted. No one is willing to say anything until "a manger" returns

I will keep pushing

[AgentTink]

Chatterbox i am having the same issues with Sefton as you are. I have been advised that they are trying to decide if they should wait for the law to change???? and that they are all having a meeting on 10th September to discuss it, which means that we have all missed the deadline to apply!!??!

Simona, many thanks for sending the email to Steph. I sent a email to DfE yesterday, however their system said they may not respond for near on 3 weeks due a backlog, so hopefully you will get an answer from Steph quicker.

What me and Chatterbox need, as well as other childminders who cant get the funding, is a concrete answer from the DfE in regards to "can a LA just ignore the statutory guidance", "what will the DfE do if they find a LA is ignoring the statutory guidance", "Can the DfE get in touch with any LA who are not complying, as it is additonal stress and burden that i should not be having to do as a lone worker", "If a law does need to be changed as Sefton LA state, then what is this law, and when will this be changed"

[Simona]

Chatterbox i am having the same issues with Sefton as you are. I have been advised that they are trying to decide if they should wait for the law to change???? and that they are all having a meeting on 10th September to discuss it, which means that we have all missed the deadline to apply!!??!

Simona, many thanks for sending the email to Steph. I sent a email to DfE yesterday, however their system said they may not respond for near on 3 weeks due a backlog, so hopefully you will get an answer from Steph quicker.

What me and Chatterbox need, as well as other childminders who cant get the funding, is a concrete answer from the DfE in regards to "can a LA just ignore the statutory guidance", "what will the DfE do if they find a LA is ignoring the statutory guidance", "Can the DfE get in touch with any LA who are not complying, as it is additonal stress and burden that i should not be having to do as a lone worker", "If a law does need to be changed as Sefton LA state, then what is this law, and when will this be changed"

The law will change 1 Sept as the Guidance becomes Statutory=LAW from that date...........however many LAs have realised they need to comply and are telling cms now

The new guidance has 'removed' the basket of measures LAs could impose on cms up to now...that is why each LA differs, no more!!!
The need for accreditation has been replaced by Ofsted being the 'sole arbitrer' of quality...daft I know but that is how it is at the moment...but judging by latest reports that is being challenged and will probably change in future

there will be a few admin tasks but it is not difficult...parents get a list of cms, they ring cms, they fill in a form and cms apply for the funding which is paid straight into their account

You won't miss any deadline because 2 yo will come up all the time and the funding is due the term after their 2nd birthday just like 3 yo
the 2 yo funding is 'govt policy'...LAs are worried but they can't defy it
my understanding is that LAs are 'accountable' to the DfE who funds them for the 2, 3 and 4 yo, I also understand that from 2015 LAs will be paid by result...they get funded as long as they provide childcare care for those children

It is not a secret to the LAs ...it has been out a while...don't they read the updates?
I am sure the DfE will get in touch if they get many cms complaints...swamp them

If you want to write this is the email: ministers@education.gsi.gov.uk ..that gets to the dept and distributed to the right person
Put as a title: Cms and 2,3 and 4 yo funding...that will get their attention!!!

as soon as I hear I will feedback but Pacey are aware of this...Chatterbox what do they say?

[AgentTink]

Simona I fully understand what you are saying because that is how i read it too, however my issue is not about me understanding it. I fully understand the guidance. I understand that 'statutory' means must be followed.

My problem is getting the LA to understand it. Surley it is not my responcability to read a LA document and then tell the LA how to follow it.

The LA will not listen to me... i cannot tell them how to do something.... i am fighting this on my own with them.

If the DfE had released this document and it is law, then were do i get this information to present to my LA?

If the DfE expects every LA to follow it from the 1st September, then what are they prepared to do with LA's who dont?

Where is balck and white does it say for me and other CM's who are fighting this, that under no circumstances can they not offer it to us from September?

I will have to disagree with you on the fact that i have missed the deadline. I am unable to take funded children for this term while other CM's in other LA's can, So in that respect i have missed a term of being able to take funded children.

And who knows if my LA will even be ready for the January term!!??!!

I will send a email to the address you have kindly provided and see if I can get anywhere because I really need answers in order to be able to fight my LA.

The problem as you have stated is that we need lots of CM's to complain to the DfE, however i have at present not received a single responce to email i have sent out to 80 childminders in my area in regards to this, so i am doubtful the DfE will get swamped with complaint letters.

[Simona]

Simona I fully understand what you are saying because that is how i read it too, however my issue is not about me understanding it. I fully understand the guidance. I understand that 'statutory' means must be followed.

My problem is getting the LA to understand it. Surley it is not my responcability to read a LA document and then tell the LA how to follow it.

The LA will not listen to me... i cannot tell them how to do something.... i am fighting this on my own with them.

If the DfE had released this document and it is law, then were do i get this information to present to my LA?

If the DfE expects every LA to follow it from the 1st September, then what are they prepared to do with LA's who dont?

Where is balck and white does it say for me and other CM's who are fighting this, that under no circumstances can they not offer it to us from September?

I will have to disagree with you on the fact that i have missed the deadline. I am unable to take funded children for this term while other CM's in other LA's can, So in that respect i have missed a term of being able to take funded children.

And who knows if my LA will even be ready for the January term!!??!!

I will send a email to the address you have kindly provided and see if I can get anywhere because I really need answers in order to be able to fight my LA.

The problem as you have stated is that we need lots of CM's to complain to the DfE, however i have at present not received a single responce to email i have sent out to 80 childminders in my area in regards to this, so i am doubtful the DfE will get swamped with complaint letters.

I apologise if I made it sound you don't understand...of course you do...it is your LA who is 'pretending' not to understand
There is no information you can give the LA about the law...the Guidance is statutory like the EYFS 'statutory' framework...no LA ever disputed that!!

When I was emailing my LA I kept copying them the emails from DfE David Fitzgerald....he was saying one thing, they were 'procrastinating' saying exactly the same as they tell you: we need the Guidance...as soon as it came out the funding was available to me....strangely enough I am, at the moment, the only cm on their list!!

You have not missed the deadline because those caring for 2 yo were 'piloting' the scheme...now it is not a pilot any more ...it is the LAW as of 1st September with 130,000 children who need childcare then another 130,000 in 2014

I have started this small campaign and in the style of Mastermind 'I started so I'll finish'...I will pursue it and help as much as I can

See if I get a reply next week ..remember many are on holiday...I will pursue it

I know what you mean by being on your own...no other cm bothered in my LA as far as I know...we will get through this

[sarah707]

The problem as you have stated is that we need lots of CM's to complain to the DfE, however i have at present not received a single responce to email i have sent out to 80 childminders in my area in regards to this, so i am doubtful the DfE will get swamped with complaint letters.

It's exactly the same problem with campaigning and encouraging people to send letters / emails etc.

The usual proactive people get involved and the rest wait for someone else to do it for them

Just to say I share your pain xx

[Simona]

It's exactly the same problem with campaigning and encouraging people to send letters / emails etc.

The usual proactive people get involved and the rest wait for someone else to do it for them

Just to say I share your pain xx

I would like to add this to Sarah' post...there seems to be a regular and consistent call for cms to 'work together', to unite and join efforts, to speak in unison'..........WE ARE

The issues cms face are different, while some are shared....what some cms are fighting for is not the fight of another cm (the funding is the prime example)

So we must be allowed to speak in lots of ways, with different styles and accents, and allow all cms to contribute, we need to support those who are more proactive but not exclude those who are not confident putting pen to paper or making that call but we need their engagement and their opinion

It does cms no favours that many of our colleagues are totally unaware of what has been going on...we flag up info sharing and peer support all the time but thousands of cms are still sleepwalking

it is not just one cm or two or three or four writing or shouting on behalf of all cms ...
it is the number of cms who write and shout that makes a difference...
it is speaking up on issues that matter to cms as they vary across the country
it is the number of letters and emails that land on desks at the DfE and MPs
it is 'perseverance', often feeling people think you are a 'pain'...concentrating on matters that are important to cms:

1. agencies,

2. childcare hubs (I fear these more than agencies...I want to be wrong),

3. keeping cms 'independent', at present, at least until the agency pilots have been tested and we have been consulted...too many may be wobbling because they think agencies will reduce 'paperwork'....they won't!
Many cms believe the EYFS is the cause of 'paperwork'...it is not!
It is the bureaucratic red tape and unclear guidance on what is requested by the EYFS and inspectors alike that make us produce useless pieces of paper

4. the discrimination of cms in drawing funding for 2, 3 and 4 year olds

5. Support from LAs disappearing or being diluted but also looking and asking for a more 'standardised way' of supporting cms across England...LAs have got away with so much over the years

6. Finding the courage to shout about our concerns over Ofsted inspections

7. getting the rest of the EY sector to support cms

There are many issues in MGC and MAC ...cms are hit the most by the reforms but issues vary from area to area

I believe that no one can speak on behalf of all cms...no website or forum can contain all the info or be the hub of any campaign, we need a cross section for info sharing

We need to be heard...the more of us shout and write the more effective we will be
I think the ratio issue was the prime example...3 petitions and various reasons for supporting them got the desired result.

We may be saturated with updates, statements and politician's sound bites and opportunism but we must not lower our guard ...not now and not for a while yet!