Thinking ahead

**JCrakers** · 21-08-2012, 10:09 AM

When I started minding 5yrs ago I started with an 8yr old and 12yr old before and after school. They moved house two years ago and are now able to look after themselves after school. They are still local but further away.

Mum has just had another baby and has asked me about a space in 8m time.

So I'm starting to look at my numbers as she wants part time to start with and then it will be full time which will be fantastic.
Ill need a variation for certain days and hours but I think it will fall quite well because she's wanting part time to start with. Also my 4yr old full timer leaves for school in the July so the variation will be from April-July.

All will be manageable but Thurs toddler group which is in a church.

So if it all happens I'm wondering if I will manage 4 children at toddler group on a Thursday. Does anyone else have 4 little ones and take them to toddlers.

The ages will be 4.3yrs, 3.3yrs,2.3yrs and the 8m old.
I manage the three at the moment although they do go off in different directions which is hard. I don't get a sit down at all from 8am-school run-walk to toddlers-walk back-12pm.

The other option would be to stop toddler group from April-july and start it back again in Sept when 4yr old goes to school

**smurfette** · 21-08-2012, 10:44 AM

I think four would be hard work getting out and about .. Unless u can drive right to the door I don't think I would do it, wouldn't worry me being there just getting there and back safely. The odd day I have four under three and don't go out just worry something would happen. I would be inclined to stay in those days and maybe do playdoh painting playing in garden etc.. Hth!! Oh and congrats!

**gegele** · 21-08-2012, 11:58 AM

risk assess your way there and see. you know your kids you know what their worst can be.

**AliceK** · 21-08-2012, 12:42 PM

It's do able. On the days when I have a variation for 4 EY's children we still go out. Take today for instance I have 4 EY's and 2 schoolies. We've been up to the university for DD's S&L session. Last week we all went to the football club every day. You just need to be organised (and have eyes in the back of your head

)

xx

**marnieb** · 21-08-2012, 01:10 PM

I do 4 every thursday to toddler group, dd 3.5, e 2.5, j 2, A 1.

The small ones go in the double, dd and E go on their scooters. The playgroup is in a small contained room with a stair gate so they are always in the room with me, but rounding them all up for nappy & loo runs is a bit of a nightmare as one always wants to stay & play!!!!!!!

**oxfordshirecm** · 21-08-2012, 01:27 PM

I have 4 little ones too-two one year olds and 2 two and a half year olds. I go out every day with them, I have a double buggy, a buggy board and a backpack carrier for the lightest. It's hard work and I never get to sit down but I found once I got myself into a routine it was not so difficult anymore.

**bunyip** · 21-08-2012, 01:43 PM

@JCrakers

Isn't that going to exceed your numbers for the Early Years age? or do you work with an assistant?

Am I missing something?

**loocyloo** · 21-08-2012, 01:51 PM

i've had 4 at a toddler group. its do-able, but helps if you have a friend with an extra eye on them as well! as i found mine would go as far as possible in each individual direction and then need me!

i'm only going to have 3 a day next term, its going to feel odd!

**JCrakers** · 21-08-2012, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by bunyip

@JCrakers

Isn't that going to exceed your numbers for the Early Years age? or do you work with an assistant?

Am I missing something?

Ive got three EY at the moment but an extra one would make 4. Mum wants to start part time so I can offer the days I have which is weds and fri when I only have 2 EY.
Then when she wants to return to work full time I can risk assess and get a variation in place for the other three days . It will only be for 4 months then my eldest mindee goes to school.
Mon and tues it would be 3.5hrs per day when I'd have 4
Thurs it would be 7hrs
Weds and fri I would have 3 EY

So as far as I'm aware I can do the variation myself as long as I RA and show how I care for each.

**JCrakers** · 21-08-2012, 02:34 PM

Thanks everyone,

I'll have to think about the group. Because its in a church and you need eyes everywhere. The children get lost in the pews but the stairs are gated,the front door is closed and manned but there are areas that I won't be able to see the children if they go off in different directions

Might have to give it a miss for a few months. I'd really like to take the full time baby, especially as I'll be losing a full time mindee

**bunyip** · 21-08-2012, 02:42 PM

OIC. Clear now.

Yes, it's all around Ofsted's overarching principle of 'exceptional' circumstances. So you just need to demonstrate that you're working within that guidance. Unfortunately, I've found they are being a bit cagey about the specifics of what they regard as 'exceptional' and how long they'll let it go on for. I guess that's just the way Ofsted are.

**loocyloo** · 21-08-2012, 03:13 PM

variations have always been for 'exceptional' circumstances, but i have had variations that have lasted for 2 yrs in the past!

i am going to carry on as i am now, but if i am in a situation when in the past i would apply for a variation, i will just RA it myself and decide if i can do it! and then write myself a variation!

**bunyip** · 21-08-2012, 07:33 PM

Currently, Ofsted grant or refuse the variation request, so at least we know if we're allowed to do it.

I'm very concerned that we can grant ourselves a variation without any confirmation from Ofsted. We really don't know if Ofsted agree with our decision until we get inspected and maybe get told we've been in breach of our registration for heaven knows how long.

Are all inspectors going to be absolutely consistent?
Are they going to interpret things in the same way as the CM?

What sort of penalties are they going to apply?

**The Juggler** · 21-08-2012, 09:03 PM

its easily doable with 2 older ones and 2 younger. I've had 2 x 1 years (well one was 14 months and 1 x 8 months to begin with) then 2 x 3 years. The 3 years are very independent and it was fine at toddlers.

Harder with 3 babies.

**JCrakers** · 22-08-2012, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by bunyip

Currently, Ofsted grant or refuse the variation request, so at least we know if we're allowed to do it.

I'm very concerned that we can grant ourselves a variation without any confirmation from Ofsted. We really don't know if Ofsted agree with our decision until we get inspected and maybe get told we've been in breach of our registration for heaven knows how long.

Are all inspectors going to be absolutely consistent?
Are they going to interpret things in the same way as the CM?

What sort of penalties are they going to apply?

I think anyone sensible enough is going to be able to manage fine. I've got to grant myself a variation on mon 3rd because a teacher mum needs to go into school the day before it opens to sort things out. Her two children 18m and 4.5yrs usually attend thurs/fri.she asked me if I could have her 18m old and then pick sibling up at 1pm from school as she staggers a school start so not classed as a schoolie yet.
I said yes to 18m but said I couldn't pick up sibling as I RA the walk and found it was going to be too much. It's only a 10min walk down a quietish road but I felt I wasn't able to look after 5 under 5. Although when she is a schoolie it puts it in a different light as she will be classed as an over 5.
I would have had an 8m and 18m in buggy, 3yr old on board and 3.5yr,4.5yr and 6yr old walking decided that it wasn't going to be easy. Even thou I was in my numbers I made a decision.
I've manage these numbers of children before but because 4.5yr old was still classed as an under 5, it seemed to put extra pressure on me (no idea why)
But I chose not to do it

**bunyip** · 22-08-2012, 08:13 AM

I agree that the vast majority of CMs are mature enough to know what they can cope with. It just happens that I know my limit is 3, but I'm equally sure there are others who can easily cope with more than I can.

But I know from CMs who say they've made enquiries, that Ofsted are being vague and sometimes inconsistent in their answers. I'm hoping that Ofsed might become a bit more forthcoming and offer guidance in this respect, preferable in print or email, so a CM can keep a record of something more substantial than a phone call.

If so much is being left open to interpretation by inspectors, then are we going to see well-meaning CMs being penalised at inspection? I have a (admittedly pessimistic) nightmare vision of CMs coming back to this subject over the coming months to say they were inspected and told they'd done wrong - even though they're trying to help out families and getting very little clear guidance from Ofsted.

I really, truly, do hope I'm wrong.

**JCrakers** · 22-08-2012, 08:42 AM

I've used ofsteds form and will keep it in a folder. If they want to question it then they can.

I can see your point because if I was to take more children on and something was to happen god forbid. Let's say I had 4 EY and I wasn't watching one of them properly and one injured themselves how easy or hard would it be for me to prove that I had RA and thought it through properly before judging myself.
I've recorded everything on the form that ofsted used to give out, whether or not this would prove I was in control of everything is another matter.

toddlers896 · 31-08-2012, 07:31 AM

this is what i love about this forum. There is always a question that pops up in your head and sometimes ime too embarassed to ask the question but you can guarantee that you will always find the answe on here.

i have three under two next week and ive just taken on an afterschool. Ime panicking about how i am going to get them all up to the school. My cm friend has lent me a buggy board to go on the back of my very hard to push double buggy

so i think i will do a trial run on tuesday and will even try with one of them walking. fun and games eh. never mind its friday yipeeeeee