4 YEAR OLDS IN FULLTIME SCHOOL!

**emma04** · 25-01-2008, 01:54 PM

HI All

Have have just spoken to Ofsted for the second time regarding ratios surrounding 4 year olds in full time school.

My daughter will be 4 in August 2008 and begins school in September 2008

I had always assumed that once she was in full time school she would be classed in the 5 or over bracket for ratio purposes at all times including after school, school holidays etc.

I AM WRONG!!!!

She is classed in the 5 or over bracket during term time only!!!!

For after school, school hols and when school is closed....She goes back to being 4 and therefore back to the under 5 bracket (until she turns 5 next August 2009)
This obviously proves a big issue if you think you can have 3 under 5 as soon as your child starts school. The Ofsted inspector told me that if i wanted to have 3 under 5 PLUS my own daughter, because she is classed as 4 out of school time, that i would have to apply for a variation to request 4 under 5's

Sorry if this sounds complicated and if you already knew (therefore i'm obviously a bit thick), but i posted a few days ago on this subject and it sounded as though some of you thought the statement in red above was wrong...........Its NOT Ofsted have clarified it to me in detail.

**Lou** · 25-01-2008, 01:57 PM

Well this is obviuosly another class A cock up from OFSTED!!!

As i said in the other post, when my daughter started school they just literally issued me another certifcate.

There is nothing on the certificate saying only term time.

They did not mention this, when i rang they just said oh yes she moves up into next catagory.

I might ring Ofsted and see if i get same response, seems different people tell you different things.

**Minnie Minx** · 25-01-2008, 02:09 PM

They really need to get their act together, they're making it so difficult for minders that soon there won't be any lol, for an organisaton that expects us to be 100% super efficient they don't set a very good example

xx

**LittleMissSparkles** · 25-01-2008, 02:43 PM

oh god I just dont know what to believe anymore with bloomin OFSTED ..........

**samw** · 25-01-2008, 02:50 PM

Well Im stuck now then too. My other threads explain things but what a nightmare, how are we supposed to keep up. I dont understand why they bother saying we can class them as over 5, when this is only when they are at school and wont be being minded by us anyway.

Oh god, Im really not getting this whole ratio thing!

I was going to ask Ofsted if I could care for 4 under 5s including my own daughter who is 3 too, as I mind a 17 month old and have had enquiries for 2 boys aged 3 but are in full time nursery education. Dont think I will bother now!

Sam x

**Spangles** · 25-01-2008, 03:04 PM

Glad I read this thread because I just thought they were classed as over 5 all the time, had no idea it was only school hours! How stupid is that?

That doesn't make sense actually because we wouldn't have them then!

I'm confused. Do you think they've told you wrong?

**SARAHW26** · 25-01-2008, 03:08 PM

Hi
I was recently told by my inspector, that full - time four years old were classed in your 5 - 8 ratios, so I dead confused now.

I wish they would make there mind up

Sarah

**buildingblocks** · 25-01-2008, 03:55 PM

Sorry that is rubbish if that was the case then parents would have to pay to keep the childs place open i could see them being happy with that. Once they are in full time school this applies to holidays and term times. i would ring again and query this information and get it in writing

there was talk in the consultation of for EYFS that children up to the age of 6 (may be wrong about the age) would count as basically what is now an under 5 space but that was amended i am sure.

**Banana** · 25-01-2008, 04:05 PM

Im goig to call Ofsted now - I've got a spare 10 minutes, lets see what im told, i'll post back in a minute

x

**Banana** · 25-01-2008, 04:11 PM

Here's my answer:

'Once a child is in full time eductaion they are classed as a 'rising 5' so does not affect our ratio as they are in school. They ARE NOT classed as 4 in the holidays and are classed in the 5-8 category'

I asked why someone had called earlier and been given the other information and she said that she doubted anyone would have been told that.

So there you go. Maybe we should all call and see how many of us are told different things

x

**nell57** · 25-01-2008, 04:14 PM

hi
this is confusing, when i asked my development officer, she said she was'nt sure but would find out, she came back with the answer that 4y old would be classed as over 5y old even in hols, not sure if she got the info straight from ofsted
now doubt is set in my mind, panicking now cus we have half term soon

helen

**Wiggly** · 25-01-2008, 04:15 PM

WEll I recently applied to Ofsted to get my numbers changed as my son started full-time school after half term in October.

It was approved and I would have thought the accompanying letter would explain if at any point my child was no longer classed as an over 5 year old - ie holidays, after school etc to make it clear.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Wiggly
x

**nell57** · 25-01-2008, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Banana

Here's my answer:

'Once a child is in full time eductaion they are classed as a 'rising 5' so does not affect our ratio as they are in school. They ARE NOT classed as 4 in the holidays and are classed in the 5-8 category'

I asked why someone had called earlier and been given the other information and she said that she doubted anyone would have been told that.

So there you go. Maybe we should all call and see how many of us are told different things

x

thanks banana,

I'm that slow at typing someone always puts the answer beofre i can post

helen

**mrsbumbles** · 25-01-2008, 04:30 PM

The wording for all this in the new eyfs standards sept 2008 is very confusing! page 51, it would help if it was written in easy to understand wording rather than jargon. Still confused!!!!

**button68** · 25-01-2008, 04:52 PM

Wow how confusing is this

One good thing going for me is that my 4 year old DD (at the moment she's at playgroup NOT full time school) will turn 5 on th 5th Sept - probably only a day or two after she starts full time school - so she'll never really be a 'Rising Five'

For once DD has made my life run at little smoother

**sarah707** · 25-01-2008, 04:54 PM

The Standards (Standard 2, Organisation) state -

'children aged 4 attending 10 early education sessions a week may be classed as children over 5 years for the purposes of the adult/child ratio'

This clearly does not make any distinction between school days and holidays and this is what we currently have to meet.

__________________________________________________ _____________

The EYFS doesn't exactly state the difference between holidays vs school days... but on page 51 of the statutory framework (legal bit) it is quite clear...

'However, where 4 and 5 year old children only attend the childminding setting before and / or after a normal school day, they may be classed as children over the age of 5 for the purposes of the adult/child ratio...'

That says to me that, when the EYFS kicks in in Sept 2008, they are ONLY classed as 5 on school days but NOT during the school holidays...

I wonder if that's what the person was thinking about when talking to Emma originally...?

Oh no! I'm quoting from the standards... I'm starting to sound like an Ofsted employee!!!!

**Sarsar3NCH** · 25-01-2008, 04:56 PM

I agree with Donna, page 51 of statuatory framework re ratios is very badly written, it would imply that full time schoolers under 5 are only counted as over 5s during term time. There is so much in this framework that is open to interpretation I am going MAD

Much like the whole prescribed medicines debate, the Borough of Poole are telling everyone that a pharmacist can 'prescribe' off the shelf Calpol. I am so confused

Sarah

**Banana** · 25-01-2008, 05:05 PM

FFS - sorry, The EYFS, Ofsted and the ****** idiots on offices who cant make it easy are a royal pain in the ass!! I wish they would get there act together. P***** me off that we are supposed to be frickin mind readers

x

**mrsbumbles** · 25-01-2008, 05:17 PM

Oh Banana, you made me laugh!! but its no laughing matter. Bring back social services i say, thing were so much moer simple then.

**samw** · 25-01-2008, 05:17 PM

This question may not make any sense to anyone else other than me so please bear with me.

If the rules change in Sept and we can only class 4 year olds as a rising 5 during term time, what happens to the kids that we are already minding and are still under the age of 5, Im sure this is going to happen in some circumstances.

Like I say maybe its just me.

Samx