Are your children 'bright'?

[sarah707]

We are discussing what it means to look after children who are not very 'bright' over on the Independent Childminders Facebook group.

It seems to mean, in the new inspection framework, that the inspector might downgrade you

This article has prompted our discussion - Exclusive: Brighter pupils make getting top ratings easier, Ofsted admits | News.

I hadn't realised how many childminder colleagues this appalling judgement has already affected and it is certainly something I will raise with Ofsted at the next Ofsted Big Conversation meeting - but sadly that's not until next year and scheduled for a day I cannot attend so I will have to send it with another steering group member.

If your inspector does tell you that your children are not clever enough for you to get an outstanding grade you must challenge it - at the time and in letters to the inspection provider (Prospect or Tribal) and Ofsted if the inspector refuses to accept that s/he has said the wrong thing.

Ask the inspector - what happened to valuing the unique and individual child? Do they not matter any more?

Take your campaign to Twitter - @tes reported the concern but didn't include childminders in the article ... @ofstednews need to know it's happening to us.

If we work together we can make things change for the better!! x

[Simona]

That admission by Ofsted could be read that less privileged children are less bright?...that is unacceptable.
That is an appalling statement for Ofsted to make.

I saw the report and have replied to @tes and Ofsted on Twitter ...also shared with @EYTalking so that it is brought to the attention of the EY sector
Thank you for sharing here too
I think Ofsted are losing it somehow ..not all revolves around grades....it is about giving all children an equal opportunity.

[loocyloo]

That is scary.

I think we all know that it is easier with a 'bright' child but the reward from a child we have to work harder with is greater.

But to be downgraded because of it is appalling.

[Mouse]

It's frightening that some inspectors can be so narrow minded.

I suppose this is why having clear starting points and tracking is important so that you can demonstrate how well the children have progressed, not how far they've got.

[k1rstie]

I guess it will lead to settings dumbing down their children when they first begin, then 'voila', look how much progress they have made with me!!!!

[moggy]

I guess it will lead to settings dumbing down their children when they first begin, then 'voila', look how much progress they have made with me!!!!

That is just what schools do and why junior schools perform comparitively 'badly', where infant schools boost their Y2 output scores leaving junior schools with impossible targets to raise those inflated-children above and beyond what is feasible (compared to through-primaries who can manipulate their data to show steady progress from YR to Y6). It is creeping into EY- they are looking ar progress from starting points, of course some children are not going to progress as much- does that make you a worse CMer? Will it lead to CMers dumbing down starting points/baseline assessments; or even choosing not to take on children who are likely to struggle and not produce the data they need for Ofsted? Very very wrong.

[Kiddleywinks]

My DS was 'brought out to dance' for the schools ofsted inspection in yr 5 (his words)
The school repeatedly failed him, until they needed him to improve their rating!

They're lucky it was when he was in primary school and too confused to speak out because if it was tried now in high school he is more than capable of voicing his opinion to inspectors (and no longer shy enough to keep quiet!)

[bunyip]

I can only agree with the comments already posted.

I know at least one EY setting (not a CM) which "dumbs down" their baseline assessments on entry, so they can show 'rapid improvement'. It's dreadful, but then it's being led by the agenda of some inspectors right up to Cameron and his Old Etonian chums. I know of group settings which are far too eager to tick off so-called "achievements" for an individual child who isn't demonstrating anything achieved. eg. A child who sits on a carpet with the other children and gawps open-mouthed out the window at the passing traffic while an EY 'professional' reads The Gruffalo is 'actively participating in story-time'. Are they 'eckerslike!

I've also been in a discussion amongst local (ish) CMs who admitted to reservations about taking on "less bright" or "difficult" children becasue they could drag down their grades. I know some are reluctant to take on or keep parents who won't cooperate in providing feedback or cooperate with 'home-learning ideas' as they will make it difficult to give good evidence to inspectres when it comes to demonstrating 'good partnership'.

The flip side is what do you do with a "too-bright" child? Not that I believe a child can be "too bright" - I should say "too bright for school". I've had a lo learn all her phonics and start reading almost a year before reception class. I asked school for advice on what to do next, and I was surprised to illicit a response of abject shock and horror. I was told, "For god's sake, slow her down. We'll not be able to keep her interested and she'll be bored in class."

[Kiddleywinks]

The flip side is what do you do with a "too-bright" child? Not that I believe a child can be "too bright" - I should say "too bright for school". I've had a lo learn all her phonics and start reading almost a year before reception class. I asked school for advice on what to do next, and I was surprise to illicit a responce of abject shock and horror. I was told, "For god's sake, slow her down. We'll not be able to keep her interested and she'll be bored in class."

DS was being given "Biff and Chip" books when at home he was reading Ladybird books - when I tackled the school about 'ability appropriate' reading material I was informed that whilst it was very obvious DS had an advanced reading level, he still had to keep to the schools reading plan of one book a week and on the same level

[FussyElmo]

Poor children

[SYLVIA]

That is a terrible thing to hear from ofsted! I think we should get outstanding for the extra effort given to not so bright little ones to help them achieve their full potential and for noticing their needs in the first place. It's harder work but far more rewarding.

[Simona]

I can only agree with the comments already posted.

I know at least one EY setting (not a CM) which "dumbs down" their baseline assessments on entry, so they can show 'rapid improvement'. It's dreadful, but then it's being led by the agenda of some inspectors right up to Cameron and his Old Etonian chums. I know of group settings which are far too eager to tick off so-called "achievements" for an individual child who isn't demonstrating anything achieved. eg. A child who sits on a carpet with the other children and gawps open-mouthed out the window at the passing traffic while an EY 'professional' reads The Gruffalo is 'actively participating in story-time'. Are they 'eckerslike!

I've also been in a discussion amongst local (ish) CMs who admitted to reservations about taking on "less bright" or "difficult" children becasue they could drag down their grades. I know some are reluctant to take on or keep parents who won't cooperate in providing feedback or cooperate with 'home-learning ideas' as they will make it difficult to give good evidence to inspectres when it comes to demonstrating 'good partnership'.

The flip side is what do you do with a "too-bright" child? Not that I believe a child can be "too bright" - I should say "too bright for school". I've had a lo learn all her phonics and start reading almost a year before reception class. I asked school for advice on what to do next, and I was surprised to illicit a response of abject shock and horror. I was told, "For god's sake, slow her down. We'll not be able to keep her interested and she'll be bored in class."

Bunyip...very interesting when you comment on EY settings doing a Baseline assessment.....I have read this a lot in this forum
I wonder if what they actually mean is 'starting points'?

The Baseline is ONLY carried out by teachers in Reception not in our EY Settings....I bet many would soon change their terminology if they knew the cost of this test?
It is important for them to know that is not what they are required to do and should not call it so in order to confuse matters.


As for 'privileged' schools looking at their 'bright' children...let's go no further than Eton...the politicians they have created are far from bright...Cameron, Osborne or Johnson are a prime example of privilege and inequality and they have no idea what the real world is all about.

What is happening in EY is truly appalling and we must speak up

[bunyip]

DS was being given "Biff and Chip" books when at home he was reading Ladybird books - when I tackled the school about 'ability appropriate' reading material I was informed that whilst it was very obvious DS had an advanced reading level, he still had to keep to the schools reading plan of one book a week and on the same level

It's so sad, isn't it?

How do we manage to have a Conservative Minister for Education running a Stalinist schools system?

[bunyip]

Bunyip...very interesting when you comment on EY settings doing a Baseline assessment.....I have read this a lot in this forum
I wonder if what they actually mean is 'starting points'?

The Baseline is ONLY carried out by teachers in Reception not in our EY Settings....I bet many would soon change their terminology if they knew the cost of this test?
It is important for them to know that is not what they are required to do and should not call it so in order to confuse matters.


As for 'privileged' schools looking at their 'bright' children...let's go no further than Eton...the politicians they have created are far from bright...Cameron, Osborne or Johnson are a prime example of privilege and inequality and they have no idea what the real world is all about.

What is happening in EY is truly appalling and we must speak up

I just reviewed my training notes from my pre-reg course, in which the terms "baseline assessment" and "starting points" are entirely interchangeable.

I guess I must have done the dumbed-down CMs' training.

But I can't disagree with any part of your post.

[moggy]

I just reviewed my training notes from my pre-reg course, in which the terms "baseline assessment" and "starting points" are entirely interchangeable.

I guess I must have done the dumbed-down CMs' training.

But I can't disagree with any part of your post.

'Baseline' and 'starting points' are becoming interchangable and is exaserbated by software such as Tapestry who use the term 'baseline' only, maybe as it is aimed at all ages including YR and KS1+

[Simona]

Bunyip...thank you for your clarification, I see where you are coming from.

I would say that Baseline and Starting Points are in a way 2 words that mean the same thing....but I personally see where the confusion could come in....and where parents may be getting a bit worried

Assessing Starting Points has been in our practice for as long as I can remember and still remains very much a very important part of the EYFS and CIF.
I have to admit I have never come across training that the 2 words can be used in the same context....but trainers can be very innonavative when they want to be

Baseline Assessment is a test...and at the moment going through some negative reviews and a campaign against it driven by the very Dr Mary Bousted.


It is also not mentioned in CIF at the moment...it is what reception teachers do...if they choose to do it as it is not compulsory
S/Points on the other hand are 'compulsory'... I can see an inspector ticking the negative boxes if not provided.
The only reason I have raised it is because the Baseline Assessment is not a very popular test at the moment...it would be easy for some to confuse the 2.

While Starting Points is something parents should be happy to cooperate in identifying with us...I would be not surprised if some were against a Baseline Assessment...simply because of the debate going on at the moment.

Moggy...I appreciate that S/Points and Baseline are 'becoming' interchangeable' but I don't think we should encourage a commercial online LJ company to call it that until we are sure it is understood by all and shared in both frameworks....this will cause an almighty confusion
I shall make enquiries about that point though.


Sorry for the deviation and back to 'bright' children helping to make their privileged school outstanding!
Amazing that Ofsted itself has found yet another label for those children who are at 'expected' levels of intelligence against those 'disadvantaged'...either way they seem to cause problems in the education system!

[bunyip]

Bunyip...thank you for your clarification, I see where you are coming from.

I would say that Baseline and Starting Points are in a way 2 words that mean the same thing....but I personally see where the confusion could come in....and where parents may be getting a bit worried

Assessing Starting Points has been in our practice for as long as I can remember and still remains very much a very important part of the EYFS and CIF.
I have to admit I have never come across training that the 2 words can be used in the same context....but trainers can be very innonavative when they want to be

Baseline Assessment is a test...and at the moment going through some negative reviews and a campaign against it driven by the very Dr Mary Bousted.


It is also not mentioned in CIF at the moment...it is what reception teachers do...if they choose to do it as it is not compulsory
S/Points on the other hand are 'compulsory'... I can see an inspector ticking the negative boxes if not provided.
The only reason I have raised it is because the Baseline Assessment is not a very popular test at the moment...it would be easy for some to confuse the 2.

While Starting Points is something parents should be happy to cooperate in identifying with us...I would be not surprised if some were against a Baseline Assessment...simply because of the debate going on at the moment.

Moggy...I appreciate that S/Points and Baseline are 'becoming' interchangeable' but I don't think we should encourage a commercial online LJ company to call it that until we are sure it is understood by all and shared in both frameworks....this will cause an almighty confusion
I shall make enquiries about that point though.


Sorry for the deviation and back to 'bright' children helping to make their privileged school outstanding!
Amazing that Ofsted itself has found yet another label for those children who are at 'expected' levels of intelligence against those 'disadvantaged'...either way they seem to cause problems in the education system!

Thanks - I honestly thought the terms meant one and the same thing. I'm now so set in my ways and use of language that I wonder if I will ever get this one right (old dog, new tricks and all that....)

On a positive note, if we all keep raising 'bright' children, we can maybe plant an erstwhile mindee in the DofE in 20 years time...............and they can sort the Whitehall lot out once and for all.

[sarah707]

From feedback we are getting from Ofsted -

Starting points = the information you get from parents about what children can / cannot do when they first start in your care.

Baseline = the initial observations and assessments you do in the first few weeks of the child's time with you.

Most inspectors look for both

[JCrakers]

It really is a sad time

A 'bright' child may not be good at English or Maths, they might not be so great at communication but they all have their own ways of being bright.

A child who excels in Physical dev may go on to be a fantastic athlete competing in the future Olympics. Just because they are not sitting at a desk and getting top scores at school doesn't mean they are less bright

[Simona]

From feedback we are getting from Ofsted -

Starting points = the information you get from parents about what children can / cannot do when they first start in your care.

Baseline = the initial observations and assessments you do in the first few weeks of the child's time with you.

Most inspectors look for both

Thanks for your reply Sarah
are you able to give us a link to the Ofsted feedback so we can check what has changed since Sept in the CIF?
sorry I have not come across any changes or updates to the framework so want to make sure I am up to date.


Having looked at the CIF guidance again on p 13-14 there is reference to Assessment information of what children 'already' know and their starting points...nowhere does it mention Baseline Assessment for Early Years.

it maybe that providers are confusing the 2 or inspectors expecting what is not required? I have not come across this debate before so it is quite intriguing

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/receptio...up-your-school

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...eline-research