Contracts for Independent Childminders

**SammySplodger** · 24-03-2013, 09:51 PM

Re: Contracts for Independent Childminders

Do you buy them 'off the shelf', eg: NCMA / PACEY?
If yes to the above - how do you feel about using these now things have changed re: PACEY?

Or do you have you own?
If so, where did you get the wording from?

Do you think it would be helpful to have some draft contract wording linked on the Independent Childminders website?

Is there anything 'new' we might need to add into our existing contracts once the Agencies are up and running? Can anyone think of any possible new 'implications' that might need to be covered by our contracts?
....I'm hoping the answer to this is 'No, I can't think of anything and I really don't know what you mean Sammy Splodger :-) ....

Sorry if this appears to be another 'obvious' set of questions, but it would be helpful to know! You never know, it might throw something up.

Sarah: have we already got this one ready to link up to somewhere, or is it another action point?
Ta :-)

**miffy** · 24-03-2013, 10:48 PM

I've always been an NCMA member and so have used their contracts - I understand if you don't then NCMA legal team won't represent you if things go wrong.

If I remain independent then as long as I am still an NCMA member I would use their contracts. I can't see why I would need to use a different contract or am I missing something?

Miffy xx

**mum26** · 24-03-2013, 11:25 PM

I am the same as Miffy and have always been a member of NCMA (PACEY) and used their contracts. Will continue to do so in the future as long as I am a member.

**rickysmiths** · 25-03-2013, 12:04 AM

This is all daft at the moment because we can't possibly know what is going to happen or how.

I really have too much else to be concerned with to worry about this yet.

**sarah707** · 25-03-2013, 07:45 AM

Excellent question Sammy - we may well need to broaden it to other paperwork too - and there are a lot of samples and ideas for contents in free resources.

I have already collated links to free info about learning journeys

I know contracts / permissions etc are personal to the childminder - but I have already been working on something generic for childcare.co.uk gold members - great minds and all that!!

I can easily adapt it for the forum too with a link off the new Independent Childminders - Supporting each other website

**sarah707** · 25-03-2013, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by rickysmiths

This is all daft at the moment because we can't possibly know what is going to happen or how.

I really have too much else to be concerned with to worry about this yet.

The Govt are pushing ahead with agencies Ricky - yes a few of us are still fighting but they are riding roughshod over our concerns and / or totally ignoring us.

There aren't enough people writing letters / lobbying / asking questions etc to show the strength of feeling unfortunately.

I am one of only 6 published childminder responses on the Govt 'have your say' website - childmindinghelp.co.uk/haveyoursay - that is simply NOT enough.

My 30+ page analysis of the 'More Great Childcare' document was received and I got a letter back on Friday telling me there were changes coming - and advising me to read 'More great Childcare' for more details

So..... if childminders are not prepared to join up en masse and show their strength of feeling - then we on the Forum have to be ready to support them through the changes.

Sam is asking questions in preparation for the new website - and the support the Forum will be giving independent childminders.

If a thread gets a lot of answers then we know people want help in that area - like the one the other day about disseminating information. We are already working on how to do that more effectively.

If a thread doesn't get many answers or they are negative like this one then we know it's not something worrying our Forum members and we won't waste our time doing anything about it - because other areas of provision are more pressing.

I appreciate you are busy Ricky - as are we all - perhaps if you just answer the ones you feel you might need support with in the future??

**Chatterbox Childcare** · 25-03-2013, 08:06 AM

This could be another year yet and I think you are getting organised about something that hasn't gone through Government yet.

The agencies need to be formed (only discussion at the moment about how/why etc) and then the ideas need to go to a consulting group, back to Government, trials and if found to work legislation.

I don't think anything will change for Independent Childminders whereas agencies I can forsee will have employed childminders and all the set up and changes will be with them

**SammySplodger** · 25-03-2013, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by miffy

I've always been an NCMA member and so have used their contracts - I understand if you don't then NCMA legal team won't represent you if things go wrong.

If I remain independent then as long as I am still an NCMA member I would use their contracts. I can't see why I would need to use a different contract or am I missing something?

Miffy xx

I'm exactly the same & in answer to your question: we don't know yet!

These questions are designed to get us thinking. But don't worry - once we find out answers, it will all be linked up to the website :-)

**angeldelight** · 25-03-2013, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by miffy

I've always been an NCMA member and so have used their contracts - I understand if you don't then NCMA legal team won't represent you if things go wrong.

If I remain independent then as long as I am still an NCMA member I would use their contracts. I can't see why I would need to use a different contract or am I missing something?

Miffy xx

I agree with you Miffy I use MM but will continue to do so .

Am I missing something ...I feel it's just making people panic tbh

Why on earth would we need different contracts

Confused

Angel xx

**lilac_dragon** · 25-03-2013, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by miffy

I've always been an NCMA member and so have used their contracts - I understand if you don't then NCMA legal team won't represent you if things go wrong.

If I remain independent then as long as I am still an NCMA member I would use their contracts. I can't see why I would need to use a different contract or am I missing something?

Miffy xx

I use NCMA ones for the same reason. I used to have my own, and they've been copied and used by loads of people including Childminding Tutors, but NCMA refused to advise me on something when I admitted that I didn't use their contracts.
I think if we have our own contracts as "Independent" Childminders we will have to be aware if our Insurance is with NCMA/PACEY that they won't help us.

Simona · 25-03-2013, 12:02 PM

I totally agree with you FussyElmo....my plans too are nothing to do with agencies but to concentrate on my sustatinability as you say and main aim of the Focus Group

many things are likely to happen but not all those raised here....even experienced cms will need support and advice from those in the know. My accountatnt certainly opened a few doors for me!!

We are giving agencies too much 'oxygen of publicity' and if they are listening they will reflect, adapt and come up with amendements to their various models when they sit at that precious table with the DfE!!!

Simona · 25-03-2013, 07:47 AM

Sammy Your question is a bit confusing???...of course Independent cms WILL need a contract for obvious reasons...but why worry about something that cannot change unless you intend to give up self employment?

I have my own, devised and updates over the last 20 years...it is a comprehensive document, all inclusive, even my solicitor had little to amend when he put his stamp of approval on it
A contract is a legally binding document...Pacey may help you if you have problems but any contract, as long as signed by both parties, is valid even if it is written on a piece of loo paper and will stand in any court!!

**SammySplodger** · 25-03-2013, 08:07 AM

I am sorry if it appears that I am confusing people. I am just trying to collate the 'how to' parts of our website. We will be covering ALL aspects of our business and how to stay Independent (linking back to the forum pages where relevant).

The questions are designed to get us thinking. And, YES, to some questions the answer might be that there is 'no change'.

I am doing two things on purpose:
1) asking obvious questions, for the benefit of non-experts
2) playing devils advocate
...because I don't want us to miss anything.

Believe me: there is method in my madness.
:-)

If you don't wish to answer a question (for whatever reason), then simply ignore it! That in itself is useful, because it means we probably don't need to include it in the website.

**blue bear** · 25-03-2013, 08:11 AM

I use MM contracts, I prefer off the shelf to writing my own,feels like you have a back up of an expert behind you.

**rickysmiths** · 07-04-2013, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by SammySplodger

I am sorry if it appears that I am confusing people. I am just trying to collate the 'how to' parts of our website. We will be covering ALL aspects of our business and how to stay Independent (linking back to the forum pages where relevant).

The questions are designed to get us thinking. And, YES, to some questions the answer might be that there is 'no change'.

I am doing two things on purpose:
1) asking obvious questions, for the benefit of non-experts
2) playing devils advocate
...because I don't want us to miss anything.

Believe me: there is method in my madness.
:-)

If you don't wish to answer a question (for whatever reason), then simply ignore it! That in itself is useful, because it means we probably don't need to include it in the website.

But why are you spending so much time speculating? You have no idea about what will actually happen or how it may or may not affect any Childminders.

I'm sorry but I don't see the point. You spend hours setting up a Web Site on 'What ifs' and 'Maybes'. Really what is the point?

**sarah707** · 07-04-2013, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by rickysmiths

But why are you spending so much time speculating? You have no idea about what will actually happen or how it may or may not affect any Childminders.

I'm sorry but I don't see the point. You spend hours setting up a Web Site on 'What ifs' and 'Maybes'. Really what is the point?

Perhaps you would like to direct that question to me Ricky - I am spending many hours of my precious free time writing copy for the new website ... or to Richard who has given us the website to support us now and in the future ... or to Pauline who is using her website building skills to provide us with an Independent Childminders website?

Sammy is asking questions which will feed into how we decide the website will look - because it is very important that the website reflects the views and thoughts of Childminding Forum members. She is also giving her free time to write information and advice about areas she knows a lot about such as advertising, marketing, website building etc.

At the moment I am juggling over 100 emails and direct messages about ideas for contents. This shows the strength of feeling and concern from childminders throughout the country.

We are being very, very careful not to speculate. We are asking questions, we are trying to get people thinking about what they want, we are offering support and advice, we are trying to reassure, we are in some cases playing devil's advocate to get people to respond...

The intention is that between Childminding Forum, Childminding Help and the new Independent Childminders website childminders will be able to access all the information they need to stay independent in the future.

So the point - to answer your question - is because childminders have asked for it and the Childminding Forum is supporting them.

If you have any further questions, you know where I am, feel free to ask me

Simona · 07-04-2013, 05:40 PM

Keep doing the good work and keep asking questions...it is the only way to prepare and remain 'independent'...depending on where our independence lies and who represents us

Rickismith...why do you keep saying we are speculating...it is not too difficult to understand that things are changing and agencies are coming?...like it or not some are preparing more than others
For instance a cm who registers with an agency cannot use ncma contracts because the bit about your Ofsted registration number will be totally irrelevant if the lose the registration and contracts will be irrelevant if you give up self employment??? I am sure ncma will update this important bit???
so rather than speculation it is called thinking ahead??

contracts are a personal choice...I said I have devised my own over the last 20 years...it is comprehensive (registration, prospectus, terms and conditions and contract) and can be updated in seconds. ..and cost nothing
I also use ncma but find them totally maddening (my view...don't shoot me)
Lets wait a little longer and see what we can do a bit later...plenty of ideas in my head

Sammy have you thought of googling contract and see what the main basics are? it will give you an idea and order your thoughts?
Thanks for all the work

**SammySplodger** · 07-04-2013, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Simona

Keep doing the good work and keep asking questions...it is the only way to prepare and remain 'independent'...depending on where our independence lies and who represents us

Rickismith...why do you keep saying we are speculating...it is not too difficult to understand that things are changing and agencies are coming?...like it or not some are preparing more than others
For instance a cm who registers with an agency cannot use ncma contracts because the bit about your Ofsted registration number will be totally irrelevant if the lose the registration and contracts will be irrelevant if you give up self employment??? I am sure ncma will update this important bit???
so rather than speculation it is called thinking ahead??

contracts are a personal choice...I said I have devised my own over the last 20 years...it is comprehensive (registration, prospectus, terms and conditions and contract) and can be updated in seconds. ..and cost nothing
I also use ncma but find them totally maddening (my view...don't shoot me)
Lets wait a little longer and see what we can do a bit later...plenty of ideas in my head

Sammy have you thought of googling contract and see what the main basics are? it will give you an idea and order your thoughts?
Thanks for all the work

Thanks Simona - and YES - I was indeed Googling earlier today and have some good examples and advice pages which we are looking at. It's tricky though - as I also found plenty of examples that are not very comprehensive and potentially 'iffy' as well. If we are going to provide this info, it obviously needs to be good quality and fully up to date.

I don't know how feasible it is, but I'm wondering if we can come up with the 'bones' required and some essential paragraphs which are 'copyright free' (checked out by a 'legal mind'). Work in progress!

As for the off-the-shelf variety - I fully appreciate why they are used by many CMs and to date I have always used NCMA ones myself. When I was new there was no way I would have considered writing my own and my LA advised me not to.

However, now I'm fed up of the (many) notes and crossings out I have to make and I feel ready to write my own now. Also, I'm mindful of the (possible / unconfirmed) additional costs associated with staying Independent and therefore want to have all my own stationery for financial reasons. And no - this is not speculation - it is preparation. I do not expect all CMs will see this as necessary - but the information will be available IF they want it.

In addition, we will give details of the off-the-shelf contracts and their pricing. I have a feeling more may be emerging over the next year. Please do let us know if you spot any new ones.

Simona · 25-03-2013, 08:48 AM

Blue Bear I am no expert but a contract has to reflect what you wish to mutually agree with parents and is pertinent to your setting...
The expert was paid to approve it
Many cms have a website, a prospectus maybe and often have to add terms and conditions that reflect their practice because 'off the shelf' contract are more generally written

I started with a few pages when I run my own pre-school and now have something that I can adapt just by opening the document...since EYFS 2008 I have adapted it to all the changes and since EYFS 12 it has been tweaked many times...

Other things it does: it is my Copyright, saves me money and it saves me having to add several pieces of paperwork (which I know cms who use off the shelf ones have to do) that are required under the Welfare Requirements because they are all in one and mutually agreed...
of course it works for me and may not be what everyone wants to do...that's the perk of being independent and running our business!

The question of contracts is pertinent and have had it on my list for a long time but in a different context?

**hectors house** · 25-03-2013, 08:58 AM

I am currently using up my old NCMA contracts even though I now have my insurance through MM - I was just assuming that NCMA (PACEY) or MM would amend the wording on their contracts for Independent childminders.

For those who choose the agency route - would they do the contracts or would the agency (is this some of the paperwork that the agencies are offering to do?) - not that I care - as I am STAYING INDEPENDENT!!