Just thought of a potential problem

**JCrakers** · 27-09-2011, 01:30 PM

Hi,

Ive just been reading through some posts about charging whilst mindee is at preschool and its got me thinking.....

From Jan I will have a 3yr old, a 1yr old and a 4yr old. After school drop off I will walk to preschool, drop off 4yr old and meet another Dad with a 2yr old in the preschool carpark and have his daughter from 9.10 until 2.50pm. I then pick up the 4yr old at 3pm and go to school for after school kiddies.
It all slots in very nicely

But what happens if I arrive at preschool and find that for some reason (boiler broken, shortage of staff) that its closed at short notice?????

I will be picking up my 2yr old but will still have my 4yr old too making 4 under 5. Should I get a variation just in case something like this happens?

Why is everything so difficult.....

Becky

**Mouse** · 27-09-2011, 01:41 PM

Is the 4 year old in full time pre-school? I wonder if she could count as a rising 5? The guidelines say about looking after a 4 or 5 year old in fulltime education. It doesn't say it has to be a reception class.

Other than that, it would be an idea to get a variation, but as it is for new business, you might not get it. What happens in school holidays? DO you not have one of them? I assume you don't charge for the 4yr old while they are at pre-school.

An option would probably be to start as you intend to, hope pre-school doesn't ever close, then after a while, apply for a variation to cover in case it does.

Pipsqueak · 27-09-2011, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Mouse

Is the 4 year old in full time pre-school? I wonder if she could count as a rising 5? The guidelines say about looking after a 4 or 5 year old in fulltime education. It doesn't say it has to be a reception class.

.

'full time education' means just that - reception class and above.
anything before that is non complusory and not counted as 'education' - therefore pre-school is not school and a child would not be classed as a 'rising 5'

**Mouse** · 27-09-2011, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Pipsqueak

'full time education' means just that - reception class and above.
anything before that is non complusory and not counted as 'education' - therefore pre-school is not school and a child would not be classed as a 'rising 5'

But reception isn't compulsory. And it doesn't say education has to be in a school.

Nursery and reception class both follow EYFS. EYFS is the education standard for EY children, so both are education. If a child is 4 and in full time nursery following the EYFS education standards, why does that not count as a rising 5?

**mabel** · 27-09-2011, 03:12 PM

I dont understand as you can only have 3 under fives (or full time education) on your books surely or have you a variation already for 4?
or if pre school was closed - that child is not on your books - no money being paid so it is the responsibliity of the parent to pick up the child from the destination as you will have finished minding the child by that time then.

**bandlady** · 27-09-2011, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by mabel

I dont understand as you can only have 3 under fives (or full time education) on your books surely or have you a variation already for 4?
or if pre school was closed - that child is not on your books - no money being paid so it is the responsibliity of the parent to pick up the child from the destination as you will have finished minding the child by that time then.

You can have as many under fives on your books as long as you do not exceed three under fives at any one time. As long as the child going to nursery is not being charged for and you are not responsible for child when nursery is closed then you are ok to have another child.

Denise

**JCrakers** · 27-09-2011, 03:42 PM

The 4yr old is just 4 and goes to preschool 9-3 three days a week so not full-time.

if the child was ill then it would be mums responsibility to collect but if there was a problem as I got there I would have to hold onto the child whilst I waited for mum or she might say can you have her.it will probably never happen (but one winter when my ds was small, I arrived at his preschool to find that the boiler wasn't working, they were not allowed to take any children as it was freezing so had to turn everyone away)

I will just have to hope that preschool doesn't close for anything and then apply for a variation later. She starts school in sept so it will ok then.

I think I may have read your post wrong Mabel but I will only have 3 under 5 as they dont overlap so don't have a variation already.
It read as I can't have anymore then 3 on my books....????

Thanks for all your replies
Becky

**JCrakers** · 27-09-2011, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mouse

Is the 4 year old in full time pre-school? I wonder if she could count as a rising 5? The guidelines say about looking after a 4 or 5 year old in fulltime education. It doesn't say it has to be a reception class.

Other than that, it would be an idea to get a variation, but as it is for new business, you might not get it. What happens in school holidays? DO you not have one of them? I assume you don't charge for the 4yr old while they are at pre-school.

An option would probably be to start as you intend to, hope pre-school doesn't ever close, then after a while, apply for a variation to cover in case it does.

Two of them don't come in the holidays as mums a teacher and I don't charge whilst 4yr old is in preschool.

**Mouse** · 27-09-2011, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by bexc

Two of them don't come in the holidays as mums a teacher and I don't charge whilst 4yr old is in preschool.

As it all fits together nicely for you, I'd carry on as you are & hope it nnursery never closes when you have mindee. If it does, phone Ofsted there & then and ask for an emergency variation just for that day

**JCrakers** · 27-09-2011, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Mouse

As it all fits together nicely for you, I'd carry on as you are & hope it nnursery never closes when you have mindee. If it does, phone Ofsted there & then and ask for an emergency variation just for that day

Thank you.... Sounds like a good plan

Becky

**Mrs Pootle** · 27-09-2011, 04:04 PM

As you seem to be contracted for before and after pre-school only, then if you get to pre-school and it is closed I would suggest at that point htat you ring parents and ask them to collect as you are not contracted to have their child throughout the day and therefore do not have the space for them. As someone has suggested, if they really need you to look after them as an "emergency" then ring Ofsted at the time.

**Boris** · 27-09-2011, 04:30 PM

Agree with Mouse.

It would be an emergency, can't see they would mind.

**The Juggler** · 27-09-2011, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mouse

As it all fits together nicely for you, I'd carry on as you are & hope it nnursery never closes when you have mindee. If it does, phone Ofsted there & then and ask for an emergency variation just for that day

i agree, speak to parents now and tell them that if this ever happened you would have to call them to collect but you would hold onto mindee, call ofsted to tell them it was an emergency until they could collect.

they might even allow a permanent variation for this child for days where this might happen.

I had a 30 min variation for an extra fullday preschool child 3 days per week but they allowed me to also have him on inset days if needed.

**jane5** · 27-09-2011, 09:54 PM

Rising 5's have to attend 10, 3 hour sessions a week of education.

I would phone ofsted in the case of an emergency for a variation or after you have had this child for a few months, phone and ask for a variation just in case you ever need it.

J x

**mushpea** · 28-09-2011, 05:56 AM

if parent is paying you to hold the space whilst shes at preschool then its up to the parents to come and collect her if the preschool is shut,, I would explain this to the parents and explain they would need to get to you asap so you are not over your numbers any longer than need be, if the parent dosent like it then tough, they should've paid you for the space

**rickysmiths** · 28-09-2011, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by jane5

Rising 5's have to attend 10, 3 hour sessions a week of education.

I would phone ofsted in the case of an emergency for a variation or after you have had this child for a few months, phone and ask for a variation just in case you ever need it.

J x

Since when has this been the case? I've never heard of this. I thought the first Complusory school was from the term in which the child turns five? Reception isn't Complusory, pre-school definately isn't.

I think you may be confusing this with the free funding for 3yrs up for up to 15hrs a week but it isn't complusory for parents to use it.

Just be prepared for Ofsted to say no to the Emergency Variation. They would prob say that if you are not being paid while the child is at pre-school then it is the parents responsibility to make arrangements if they are closed.

It is for this reason my parents pay me while a child is at preschool because the space is then theirs if they need to use it.

**Carpet Monkeys** · 28-09-2011, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Mouse

As it all fits together nicely for you, I'd carry on as you are & hope it nnursery never closes when you have mindee. If it does, phone Ofsted there & then and ask for an emergency variation just for that day

Exactly what I was going to say ...

onceinabluemoon · 28-09-2011, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by rickysmiths

Since when has this been the case? I've never heard of this. I thought the first Complusory school was from the term in which the child turns five? Reception isn't Complusory, pre-school definately isn't.

I think you may be confusing this with the free funding for 3yrs up for up to 15hrs a week but it isn't complusory for parents to use it.

I think what Jane means is that for a child to count as a five year old for your numbers (i.e. a rising 5) they have to attend 10 half day (or 3 hour) sessions a week in education (i.e. at a school) as opposed to at nursery.

As far as I am aware Ofsted stipulate 'at school' if you ring them as opposed to at nursery or home educated.