Toileting issues at playgroup/nursery.

**little chickee** · 08-07-2010, 10:03 AM

I currently have a 3yo boy who is going to afternoon nursery 3 days a week after the summer holidays.

Thenursery has a policy that they do not accept children who are not confidently toilet trained. Mindee is being trained jointly by myself and at home at the moment with limited success.

The nursery have told the parents that they do not assit kids in any way with their toileting - they stand outside the door giving "encouragment"!

3 year olds are expected to 100% toilet themselves including clothes up and down, cleaning themselves and washing their hands. We are both concerned that my mindee will not be able to do this to an acceptable standard and are concerned about the health and hygiene situation of up to 25 3 yo's not cleaning themselves or their hands properly.

The 2nd issue is that if the child has any toileting accident at nursery the teachers do not clean or change them - the parent or carer is called to take the child home clean up and return them. This means a child being left dirty for who knows how long while the parent gets there.

The nursery have said that this is due to guidelines from there superiors ( whover they are) and not their own personal choice which i do not beleive.

Can i have your opinions and possible next steps for me to take please.

**crazyhazy** · 08-07-2010, 10:09 AM

Am sure someone else will know more but I'm pretty sure it's discrimination to refuse to take a child cos they're aren;t toilet trained, they can request that children are but not refuse if they're not.

**MAWI** · 08-07-2010, 10:14 AM

I find that quite shocking. I do understand that they would all like the 3 year olds to be completely self-sufficient, but as we all know, accidents still happen. I look after 3 3-3.5 year olds and they are all at slightly different levels, 1 is completely fine, no help needed, the other 2 need help, assistance with reminders, sitting on seat and still have the occasional accident

I hope you work it all out

**funtoplay** · 08-07-2010, 10:26 AM

Hi,

This is definately some form of discrimination, i am sure they arent even allowed to disallow even if the child is still in nappies!!

Julia

**funfunfun** · 08-07-2010, 10:32 AM

My own little one is 3 and has just started school ...........they do take children who are still in nappies and parents have to sign to say they are happy for staff to change bums

When he first started he was in pull up's ...............they never once changed his bum EVER !! he was there from 8.45-11.45 good job he never had a poo

Now he is in normal pants ...........needs help if he has a poo wipeing his bum to be blunt ...........When i have picked him up on more than one occasion he say's "mum poo" check and he has had a poo tried wipeing his own bum.

My thoughts are if his first words to me is mum poo surely he has said this to staff.....grrrrrrrrrr laziness is all i have to say

**Ticktoria** · 08-07-2010, 11:09 AM

MY DD is due to start school in November (she'll be three), at the moment is very defiant about not wanting to wear knickers so Ive spoke to the school about this as soon as I got her start date.

They've said they will not take them into full time school if they are in nappies (unless they're special needs), but she can stay at the playgroup (9-11:30 mon-fri). They do assist them with toiletting and if they have an accident they are cleaned up and put in spare clothes and your wet ones are handed back at the end of the day (without any attempt at removing debris - as my poor friend found out

)

**DIPPY DOUGHNUT** · 08-07-2010, 11:53 AM

My daughter is 2 (nearly 3) and she has to take herself to the toilet all by herself at nursery.

I have had loads of issues with the nursery over this, as i have picked her up in wet and soiled knickers atleast 6 times.

The last time i spoke to the assistant manager and was told they had free flowing toliets and that the children had to do it all themselfs as this is what ofsted want.

I explained to them that at 2 years old they cant wipe their bums properly that if they then get it on their hands and forget to wash their hands then this is very unhygenic and as my daughter had just got over worms this was somthing that concerned me. her reply was "oh we do make sure they wash thier hands before snack"

well what about the rest of the time.

**sillysausage** · 08-07-2010, 12:30 PM

I too think that this a form of discrimination and would tackle the nursery on this basis, it's certainly a welfare issue. 3 yr olds need help when at the toilet because very few of them can actually wipe their own bottom properly, their arms aren't quite long enough to reach properly IYSWIM.

Our local preschool went through a phase of asking parents to come back in if their child had a dirty nappy or dirty accident, though they have now been told by their development worker that they just have to get on with it now (so as not to discriminate). Preschools issue was not with cleaning up the child but that they had to divert 2 staff to it for child protection and at times that would affect their ratios in the setting.

They've said they will not take them into full time school if they are in nappies (unless they're special needs)

Don't all children have special needs at different times of their lives? A good proportion of children with development delays or other issues are only just starting to be identified when they start school or nursery so in my mind they are still practising a form of discrimination

**rickysmiths** · 08-07-2010, 09:11 PM

When my daughter and son started Play Group (they are now 15 and 17) They did not start until they were 2yrs 9mths or fully potty trained. it was very rarely a problem to be honest, I actually can't ever remember a child starting in nappies. They were however taken to the toilet and helped if needed.

I must say though their clothing was far more toilet friendly than childrens clothes seem to be these days. My two wore leggings, elasticated trousers or my dd pinefore (sp! brain has oveheated and is lubricated with cool white wine) dresses that they could manage by themselves. It does drive me nuts some of the daft outfits some of my mindees arrive in, belts that even I find hard to undo (I always remove them before sleeps as well), tight jeans with poppers that would challenge the best of us never mind a 2-3yr old. It is no wonder it takes the poor things longer. They can't get out of them quickly enough and then they get their pants all twisted up when they try to pull everything up.

I advise my parents that when the time comes they must take 2 weeks holiday and crack it at home and then i will support. Doing this concentrates the mind and means they don't start too soon. It has worked a treat with all my mindees except one, whose parents took two weeks off but went on a car based holiday!!! It took nearly a year longer for her to crack it, she went to pre-school in hold ups, they wouldn't have nappies and they never changed her. She would come out some days with her pull up nearly touching the floor bless her.

**little chickee** · 09-07-2010, 08:22 AM

Do you think though that the nursery have an obligation to assist the children at the toilet and to ensure that they wash their hands properly or are they right to not help in any way?

What about if the child does wet or mess themselves - is the nursery within their rights to refuse to clean and change the child? How come its ok for a nursery to leave a child in dirty pants when we would never be allowed to do so?