Variations...that old chestnut!!

[JCrakers]

Sorry for a variation question...im embarrassed asking but wanted to know everyone's thoughts

If I have a 3.5yr old and a 18m old on a weds and have two enquires...

1 enquiry for a 18m old 9am-1pm
1 enquiry for a 3.5yr old 12pm-5pm

Could I take them both on with the hour overlap?

[loocyloo]

JCrackers - please empty your inbox - tried to message you xx

[JCrakers]

JCrackers - please empty your inbox - tried to message you xx

ok I have

[loocyloo]

ok I have

just messaged you

[sarah707]

No you can't have 2 new children for new business if they will take you over ratios... sorry x

[Simona]

The people who know the right answers are the DfE....who write the EYFS... and also Ofsted because they inspect and judge.

Contrary to your comment Sarah...Ofsted have helped to sort this out several times and Ofsted Gill Jones has intervened too.
I have been given plenty of answers which has made ratios very clear since 2012

The DfE have done the same...extensive email communication proves that ratios are really clear if cms read and understand the wording.
I have not heard from one cm here who has tried to contact the DfE....or the childcare minister? or 4 Children who publish information on behalf of the DfE?

I also would expect an inspector to know about ratios....having asked I got a reply that confirmed both Ofsted and DfE statements.

Admin are not qualified to tell cms when ratios can be applied...that is up to each individual cm to understand and then prove to Ofsted their reasons and prove that all children are receiving the same care.

Questions have been put to Ofsted at the London OBC too....your area is not the only OBC attended where the issue is raised

While I understand that cms are careful when applying changes to their number ...this site seems to add to the confusion...I find the advice confusing at times.

So my advice to cms is if you are not sure ...check it with the right people, your association and then the decision is yours.

Good luck!

[Jessymax]

why don't u say yes ONLY if one gets picked up 30 mins earlier (12.30.. and other one gets dropped off 30 mins later.. 12.30.. then no over lap? x

[Jessymax]

just to throw something else in im sure people abuse the continuity of care thing all the time if u have 2 eyfs spaces and take ona 3rd child whose parent for example is pregnant and u know in the future they will put them with u which wil take u over your 3 under 5 even tho its sibling exception surely you should say no in the first place to first child?

[JCrakers]

But, the problem I have is I'm not taking on a 4th. I've got two equally part time enquiries. 1 parent wants 8-1pm and the other wants 12-5pm. It should be simple but its not.

It should be easy to have an overlap of just an hour when my friend down the road has 4 mindees for 40hrs. I'm confident that for that hour I can offer care to all but the rules don't allow.

I'm not doing it for the money as there seems to be a lot of enquiries out there atm....So, I shall be turning both away and waiting for a full-timer. The only loss is on the parent who will find it hard to find a space as we are all full.

(The afterschool club has just filled their last two spaces for Sept!!! That's how busy we all are around here.)

[mumofone]

But, the problem I have is I'm not taking on a 4th. I've got two equally part time enquiries. 1 parent wants 8-1pm and the other wants 12-5pm. It should be simple but its not. It should be easy to have an overlap of just an hour when my friend down the road has 4 mindees for 40hrs. I'm confident that for that hour I can offer care to all but the rules don't allow. I'm not doing it for the money as there seems to be a lot of enquiries out there atm....So, I shall be turning both away and waiting for a full-timer. The only loss is on the parent who will find it hard to find a space as we are all full. (The afterschool club has just filled their last two spaces for Sept!!! That's how busy we all are around here.)

How many kids can an after school club take on?

[JCrakers]

How many kids can an after school club take on?

I'm not sure...we have 2 afterschool clubs. They are both nurseries, one picks up about 7 children a night in a van and the other is held in the school hall. They probably have about 15-25 spaces maybe?
I had a Mum round here last week looking for afterschool care for her 2 children from Sept. I couldn't give an answer until April (school decisions) She was happy to be put on my waiting list until April but she then rang the afterschool club and they said she had taken the last two spaces....so she was lucky...others, who have left it too late, wont be as lucky.

[Rick]

But, the problem I have is I'm not taking on a 4th. I've got two equally part time enquiries. 1 parent wants 8-1pm and the other wants 12-5pm. It should be simple but its not.

It should be easy to have an overlap of just an hour when my friend down the road has 4 mindees for 40hrs. I'm confident that for that hour I can offer care to all but the rules don't allow.

I'm not doing it for the money as there seems to be a lot of enquiries out there atm....So, I shall be turning both away and waiting for a full-timer. The only loss is on the parent who will find it hard to find a space as we are all full.

(The afterschool club has just filled their last two spaces for Sept!!! That's how busy we all are around here.)

Surely if you already have two under 5 and then take on the other two, that hour between 12 and 1 you have four and it's new business. I don't believe it's an exceptional circumstance and you can have a max of 3 under 5, clearly stated in the EYFS. The cm down the road presumably has four under continuity of care which has meant she hasn't had to give notice to a settled mindee. One of your potential mindees can find alternative care. COC is not there to find a back door to taking on four, but to prevent upheaval for a settled family.

[JCrakers]

Surely if you already have two under 5 and then take on the other two, that hour between 12 and 1 you have four and it's new business. I don't believe it's an exceptional circumstance and you can have a max of 3 under 5, clearly stated in the EYFS. The cm down the road presumably has four under continuity of care which has meant she hasn't had to give notice to a settled mindee. One of your potential mindees can find alternative care. COC is not there to find a back door to taking on four, but to prevent upheaval for a settled family.

There's no back door open here? Like I said, there's nothing in it for me...it's not the money. It just seems a shame to turn 1 or both away that's all, just for the sake of 60mins. Like I said I could quite happily say no to both....i'll get a full timer no problem but wanted to help them both out.

Although, from a business point of view ....which we are trying to run, taking 1 family on for 5hrs and leaving half a day unfilled isn't good business sense?! So finding two families that slot into each other doesn't come around very often.


I've had 4 before while a Mum went to an hrs meeting on her day off...so really it's no different.

[hectors house]

I have decided (and this is my decision and I'm not endorsing that others follow me) that I will welcome back a little girl who went to India for 4 months for the winter, I have filled her space with a baby as I wasn't paid a retainer, but the mum has asked if she can return in 3 weeks time as while they have been away the parents have separated and this little girl will need some stability in her life when she returns. This will mean that I will have 4 children on a Monday & Friday and I am prepared to face the consequences if there are any as if many will remember 2 years ago if we hadn't opposed it in Liz Truss "More Great Childcare" we were going to be allowed to have 4 children under 5.

I am part of a very successful network where parents can post an enquiry on our website asking for childcare - we are currently getting 10 enquiries a month and we are all full - what are parent's supposed to do?

[Mouse]

if many will remember 2 years ago if we hadn't opposed it in Liz Truss "More Great Childcare" we were going to be allowed to have 4 children under 5.

I didn't oppose it! I was one of the very few who was looking forward to being allowed 4 under 5s and was bitterly disappointed when the decision was overturned.

I do wonder if they'll have to reconsider it when the new 30 hours of funding comes into force.

[hectors house]

I didn't oppose it! I was one of the very few who was looking forward to being allowed 4 under 5s and was bitterly disappointed when the decision was overturned.

I do wonder if they'll have to reconsider it when the new 30 hours of funding comes into force.

I did oppose it but only because the Nursery ratios were going to change too - to something ridiculous meaning that there wouldn't have been any children left for childminders to mind. I am quite capable of managing 4 children under 5, providing of course that it's the right combination of children - as sometimes 4 mixed ages of children can be easier than 2 under 18 months!

[Simona]

Why not look at Ofsted Gill Jones's public statement on Cms ratios?
I don't think cms have 'variations' anymore.

check it out by calling Ofsted or clarify this with the DfE itself.

[JCrakers]

Why not look at Ofsted Gill Jones's public statement on Cms ratios?
I don't think cms have 'variations' anymore.

check it out by calling Ofsted or clarify this with the DfE itself.

I've tried ringing Ofsted in the past Simona, they are no help which I'm always so confused even after years of this. That's why I always come on here for advice and different peoples thoughts because Ofsted washed their hands of it years ago. There should be a clear yes or no guide.
I've had many variations over the years but when one comes up that your not quite sure about, its so annoying to let someone down just for the sake of 60minutes.

Next week I have 5 under 5 because Mum is going into work for 2hrs...there's no problem with this as I've RA'ed but then I'm stumped on what to do for the 60minutes.

[Simona]

Thank you for your reply JCrackers.
At all the London OBC meetings I have attended I raised this issue.
At the last OBC in January I also spoke to the HMI when she left the room but was available for further questions.

My understanding is that cms can call Ofsted and get support ...also she recommended to look at Gill Jones' statement.
I believe Gill has also recommended cms let her know if they are confused.
Do you have access to her statement?
Are you able to attend the nearest OBC to you?

If you feel that Ofsted are not helping you need to raise this with them or the DfE since they write the EYFS...that is why I keep suggesting to cms 'check it out' with the depts. that are the official ones to offer advice....as you are correct the forum has differing opinions

All this forum can do is offer support to cms so they can understand the ratio issue

I can see this issue is very frustrating and there are several interpretations....all I go by is the DfE explanation of this in their several emails
I also go by cms who seem to have no problem with this at all.

Cms do not have variations anymore ...they are allowed 6 children under 8 as per certificate and you know the rest about RA etc etc.

It maybe that our representing associations may need to push for more clarity in the EYFS...it needs to be raised with them

I will continue to raise this in the hope the EYFS may be made clearer in future...hope never dies

[JCrakers]

Thank you for your reply JCrackers.
At all the London OBC meetings I have attended I raised this issue.
At the last OBC in January I also spoke to the HMI when she left the room but was available for further questions.

My understanding is that cms can call Ofsted and get support ...also she recommended to look at Gill Jones' statement.
I believe Gill has also recommended cms let her know if they are confused.
Do you have access to her statement?
Are you able to attend the nearest OBC to you?

If you feel that Ofsted are not helping you need to raise this with them or the DfE since they write the EYFS...that is why I keep suggesting to cms 'check it out' with the depts. that are the official ones to offer advice....as you are correct the forum has differing opinions

All this forum can do is offer support to cms so they can understand the ratio issue

I can see this issue is very frustrating and there are several interpretations....all I go by is the DfE explanation of this in their several emails
I also go by cms who seem to have no problem with this at all.

Cms do not have variations anymore ...they are allowed 6 children under 8 as per certificate and you know the rest about RA etc etc.

It maybe that our representing associations may need to push for more clarity in the EYFS...it needs to be raised with them

I will continue to raise this in the hope the EYFS may be made clearer in future...hope never dies

I don't have access to her statement, where can I find it