Ofsted been this morning

[sarah707]

Brilliant feedback from recent inspections JCrackers and Rickysmiths thank you and well done to both of you!!

JCrackers I was training on the CIf recently and was asked to talk about cohort tracking so I researched it before the training session. I found that while it can be useful if you have 30 children the same age it's pretty much useless for childminders with our low ratios and inspectors really shouldn't be asking us for it... how on earth can you get enough evidence if you only have 1 or 2 children of a similar age?

If it comes up on your report please do let Ofsted know how inappropriate it is xx

[JCrakers]

Brilliant feedback from recent inspections JCrackers and Rickysmiths thank you and well done to both of you!!

JCrackers I was training on the CIf recently and was asked to talk about cohort tracking so I researched it before the training session. I found that while it can be useful if you have 30 children the same age it's pretty much useless for childminders with our low ratios and inspectors really shouldn't be asking us for it... how on earth can you get enough evidence if you only have 1 or 2 children of a similar age?

If it comes up on your report please do let Ofsted know how inappropriate it is xx

I did tell her at the time that its not something I do because I only have a small group of children...she was too busy looking through her inspection handbook I told her that the way I identify strengths and weaknesses in the setting is by tracking the children but not as a group.
She did say she was going to put it as a recommendation so we'll see what she's written.

I also tried to tell her that by putting some toys in a different room for a younger child wouldn't work here because I only have 2-3 little ones and splitting them up so older ones can use pens freely and an under 2 could do something in the lounge isn't what I do. Again she wasn't interested.

[Maza]

If that's all she could fault you on then you must be doing a brilliant job. x

[SYLVIA]

Sounds like a pretty in depth inspection to me. I managed to get Outstanding this time though she only gave me it in Learning and development but the final report said outstanding in all areas. I had numbers in the garden but she wanted to see shapes as well. I was also asked if I could include the children in making snacks and lunch. I was pleasantly surprise to get the grade but by the sounds of comments on this thread I'll have to work much harder to keep it. Well done on your grade, be proud of what you've achieved as you work hard to get it

[mumofone]

Sounds like a pretty in depth inspection to me. I managed to get Outstanding this time though she only gave me it in Learning and development but the final report said outstanding in all areas. I had numbers in the garden but she wanted to see shapes as well. I was also asked if I could include the children in making snacks and lunch. I was pleasantly surprise to get the grade but by the sounds of comments on this thread I'll have to work much harder to keep it. Well done on your grade, be proud of what you've achieved as you work hard to get it

When you say you had numbers in the garden, how did you have these? Also what was she expecting in terms of shapes in the garden?

[FloraDora]

Brilliant feedback from recent inspections JCrackers and Rickysmiths thank you and well done to both of you!!

JCrackers I was training on the CIf recently and was asked to talk about cohort tracking so I researched it before the training session. I found that while it can be useful if you have 30 children the same age it's pretty much useless for childminders with our low ratios and inspectors really shouldn't be asking us for it... how on earth can you get enough evidence if you only have 1 or 2 children of a similar age?

If it comes up on your report please do let Ofsted know how inappropriate it is xx

I agree Sarah, it was very useful in school to track the class and analyse areas, curriculum, special needs, free school meals children etc...it gave you a good idea of strenghths and weaknesses not only of children but also teachers which would lead into CPD.
Having only given it a little thought you could show evidence of cohort/group tracking by ....analysing any blips in tracking ( which happened to me) that the children didn't appear to be moving forward as fast in maths as other areas....so I reviewed and decided that I was offering/ encouraging enough maths but just wasn't observing enough and noting enough to enable the LO's to move forward in my assessments, even though thety actually were. So I popped it in my SEF and tackled that inconsistancy in my observations next. So you could check that the whole cohort are moving forward at the same rate in all the areas, even if there is only 3.
In schools if you have a cohort of under 10 ( small schools) taking SATS they do not report the statistics as , like you said, it doesn't offer any patterns because the cohort is too small and each child is worth 10% so 3 special needs and you are immediately under threshold. At an inspection, inspectors usually do not comment if the cohort was 10 or under....but HT's usually prepare an analysis anyway, although not accurately useful...it still shows you do the analyses and are aware of cohort trends.
Thankyou jCrackers for your feedback....but if it is going to be in your development points ...we perhaps should all put our heads together and come up with some useful, not totally pointless reviews we can do...that will help you and probably the rest of us, and enable us to cover this area if questioned.......or we could learn statements that we have to remember to say if questioned on it at an inspection!

[Simona]

I agree Sarah, it was very useful in school to track the class and analyse areas, curriculum, special needs, free school meals children etc...it gave you a good idea of strenghths and weaknesses not only of children but also teachers which would lead into CPD.
Having only given it a little thought you could show evidence of cohort/group tracking by ....analysing any blips in tracking ( which happened to me) that the children didn't appear to be moving forward as fast in maths as other areas....so I reviewed and decided that I was offering/ encouraging enough maths but just wasn't observing enough and noting enough to enable the LO's to move forward in my assessments, even though thety actually were. So I popped it in my SEF and tackled that inconsistancy in my observations next. So you could check that the whole cohort are moving forward at the same rate in all the areas, even if there is only 3.
In schools if you have a cohort of under 10 ( small schools) taking SATS they do not report the statistics as , like you said, it doesn't offer any patterns because the cohort is too small and each child is worth 10% so 3 special needs and you are immediately under threshold. At an inspection, inspectors usually do not comment if the cohort was 10 or under....but HT's usually prepare an analysis anyway, although not accurately useful...it still shows you do the analyses and are aware of cohort trends.
Thankyou jCrackers for your feedback....but if it is going to be in your development points ...we perhaps should all put our heads together and come up with some useful, not totally pointless reviews we can do...that will help you and probably the rest of us, and enable us to cover this area if questioned.......or we could learn statements that we have to remember to say if questioned on it at an inspection!

Interesting point Flora Dora ....cms may not have as many children to form a cohort though.
The very reason why CIF has to reflect all settings including cms and why it has to focus on EY as a phase separate to anything that happens once children enter formal schooling

The more inspections report we get the more we may understand that, at times, it is far from a CIF.

[loocyloo]

I use 2simple and I can look at all observations done over a period I can see what strengths and weaknesses there are ... it made me realise that I hadn't done many obs on math myself.

I used to have a grid that listed all areas/sections etc and I used to tick off all areas for each child so could see if I had missed anything for a particular child and I guess, I could have used it to see an overall picture.

[JCrakers]

I agree Sarah, it was very useful in school to track the class and analyse areas, curriculum, special needs, free school meals children etc...it gave you a good idea of strenghths and weaknesses not only of children but also teachers which would lead into CPD.
Having only given it a little thought you could show evidence of cohort/group tracking by ....analysing any blips in tracking ( which happened to me) that the children didn't appear to be moving forward as fast in maths as other areas....so I reviewed and decided that I was offering/ encouraging enough maths but just wasn't observing enough and noting enough to enable the LO's to move forward in my assessments, even though thety actually were. So I popped it in my SEF and tackled that inconsistancy in my observations next. So you could check that the whole cohort are moving forward at the same rate in all the areas, even if there is only 3.
In schools if you have a cohort of under 10 ( small schools) taking SATS they do not report the statistics as , like you said, it doesn't offer any patterns because the cohort is too small and each child is worth 10% so 3 special needs and you are immediately under threshold. At an inspection, inspectors usually do not comment if the cohort was 10 or under....but HT's usually prepare an analysis anyway, although not accurately useful...it still shows you do the analyses and are aware of cohort trends.
Thankyou jCrackers for your feedback....but if it is going to be in your development points ...we perhaps should all put our heads together and come up with some useful, not totally pointless reviews we can do...that will help you and probably the rest of us, and enable us to cover this area if questioned.......or we could learn statements that we have to remember to say if questioned on it at an inspection!

I think you've hit the nail on the head Flora Dora....you have been a teacher so you have all the knowledge to do those cohort trackers. You seem on the ball with a lot of things. Now Ofsted have moved towards teaching in a big way they are expecting a lot from us. We are childminders not teachers. Most of us don't have any experience of teaching. We can only teach through play and the way we know...I missed out the cohort tracking and that's because i've never done it before.

It makes me so angry as they are expecting so much from us....we don't get a break in a 10hr shift, we don't even have time to go to the toilet in peace. A lot of us are on less than minimum wage and they are expecting us to do a teaching job. The inspector expected my to turn lunch into a learning experience, what she hadn't though about is I hadn't had a cup of tea or a sit down from 7am when I got up to 12.30pm......

[hectors house]

Just wanted to say a big Well done to Rickysmiths, didn't realise you had just had an inspection too - I also use a digital photo frame as the children like to use it to as a visual reminder of where they have been and games they play with their friends.

Sylvia - I have numbers and shapes in my garden, I just printed them from sparklebox and I used them to number the bikes, trikes etc - sometimes I chalk numbers on the patio for the children to park the vehicles in the correct parking space, to be quite honest they never take any notice of the fact that the numbers are written on a shape.

I use Tapestry on-line journals so am able to do cohort tracking but I don't really bother - at this age the difference in development between my dec & feb 2 year old and the july born 2 year old is vast but there again I would expect it to be with 7 or 5 months difference - I know they are all going to school in the same year but don't feel that a just 4 year old can be expected to be the same ability as a nearly 5 year old - it's a 1/4 of their lives difference.

[Simona]

I think you've hit the nail on the head Flora Dora....you have been a teacher so you have all the knowledge to do those cohort trackers. You seem on the ball with a lot of things. Now Ofsted have moved towards teaching in a big way they are expecting a lot from us. We are childminders not teachers. Most of us don't have any experience of teaching. We can only teach through play and the way we know...I missed out the cohort tracking and that's because i've never done it before.

It makes me so angry as they are expecting so much from us....we don't get a break in a 10hr shift, we don't even have time to go to the toilet in peace. A lot of us are on less than minimum wage and they are expecting us to do a teaching job. The inspector expected my to turn lunch into a learning experience, what she hadn't though about is I hadn't had a cup of tea or a sit down from 7am when I got up to 12.30pm......

I do respect your opinion on this JCrackers but I truly cannot get my head round why cms do not see themselves as 'teachers' ?
why? where is the issue with that?
maybe not in the sense of those who teach in schools but we still educate, guide, show children many things which turns into knowledge....I see that as more or less the same?


If parents are the children's first educators...continually bashed by that man Wilshaw.... what is it we do differently that does not give us that role too?
Cms need to bring themselves up a bit in the sector to believe in their contribution and value....neither nurseries nor preschool have a problem with calling themselves teachers....I beg to differ in some cases I have witnessed!

Our advantage as CMs is that we never separate care from education...which is the problem often seen with schools...they mainly 'educate' not care although their remit is being widened all the time and even turned into policing where parents park their car or fine them.
This will soon come up with the schools opening for 'childcare' all year round....there is already much debate on this and Cms need to take part
Sadly few have taken any notice of the Childcare Measures and what it truly means ...few are starting to raise concerns ...at last!


The govt is investing ...or so they call it...lots of money in education/childcare and may need to do more.....so they want to see how, where and when their investment is working....that is the very reason they have commissioned the SEED projects....there are different ones not just the one for Cms that has just been published and that had a very clear aim not disguised by 4 Children's recommendations at the end of it!
I remember attending a conference in London with the very team who were in charge of the SEED research ...that is exactly what they are doing it for...to prove the DfE investment is paying off.

The reason we need to evidence EYPP is the same...value for money for the govt or not so if the 'gap' is not closing?...I would bet they will remove it from EY in future...£300 is our EYPP against schools who get £3000

I think the CIF is part of all that jazz.....the sector wanted a common framework and judgement now there are suggestions to keep EY separate....I think it is too late and not enough challenge was made prior to the consultation on CIF.
The group/cohort in the CIF is rather dubiously worded but it is there and CMs....often will not be able to participate in a cohort research and evidence it...but I bet those cms in an agency will do so!...just my thought on this.
Was there any training on CIF to get us ready? I don't think so.

I would never underestimate what Ofsted are doing...it goes hand in hand with the DfE...sadly Ofsted is not independent anymore

The teacher versus carer debate needs to be extended a lot more for cms...Flora Dora was a teacher therefore it will come easy for her to understand the cohort issue...how many cms will be offered the opportunity to train on understanding how to get figures from a cohort when many cms had difficulties with doing the Funding review.

Where are our representing associations who agreed with the CIF ...interesting times to say the least.

[JCrakers]

I do respect your opinion on this JCrackers but I truly cannot get my head round why cms do not see themselves as 'teachers' ?
why? where is the issue with that?
maybe not in the sense of those who teach in schools but we still educate, guide, show children many things which turns into knowledge....I see that as more or less the same?


If parents are the children's first educators...continually bashed by that man Wilshaw.... what is it we do differently that does not give us that role too?
Cms need to bring themselves up a bit in the sector to believe in their contribution and value....neither nurseries nor preschool have a problem with calling themselves teachers....I beg to differ in some cases I have witnessed!

Our advantage as CMs is that we never separate care from education...which is the problem often seen with schools...they mainly 'educate' not care although their remit is being widened all the time and even turned into policing where parents park their car or fine them.
This will soon come up with the schools opening for 'childcare' all year round....there is already much debate on this and Cms need to take part
Sadly few have taken any notice of the Childcare Measures and what it truly means ...few are starting to raise concerns ...at last!


The govt is investing ...or so they call it...lots of money in education/childcare and may need to do more.....so they want to see how, where and when their investment is working....that is the very reason they have commissioned the SEED projects....there are different ones not just the one for Cms that has just been published and that had a very clear aim not disguised by 4 Children's recommendations at the end of it!
I remember attending a conference in London with the very team who were in charge of the SEED research ...that is exactly what they are doping it for...to prove the DfE investment is paying off.

The reason we need to evidence EYPP is the same...value fro money for the govt or not so if the 'gap' is not closing?...I would bet they will remove it from EY in future...£300 is our EYPP against schools who get £3000

I think the CIF is part of all that jazz.....the sector wanted a common framework and judgement now there are suggestions to keep EY separate....I think it is too late and not enough challenge was made prior to the consultation on CIF.
The group/cohort in the CIF is rather dubiously worded but it is there and CMs....often will not be able to participate in a cohort research and evidence it...but I bet those cms in an agency will do so!...just my thought on this.
Was there any training on CIF to get us ready? I don't think so.

I would never underestimate what Ofsted are doing...it goes hand in hand with the DfE...sadly Ofsted is not independent anymore

The teacher versus carer debate needs to be extended a lot more for cms...Flora Dora was a teacher therefore it will come easy for her to understand the cohort issue...how many cms will be offered the opportunity to train on understanding how to get figures from a cohort when many cms had difficulties with doing the Funding review.

Where are our representing associations who agreed with the CIF ...interesting times to say the least.

What I'm trying to say is Simona, I am a teacher but I'm not a qualified teacher. As a 'teacher' I don't get a lunch break or a dinner hour.....I don't get 'teachers pay' I get minimum wage and in order to get minimum wage I have to have 17 children on my books. Silly comments about how I could incorporate a learning experience into lunch would be great, but for me after being on the go for 5.5hrs already I want to tidy up the craft we have done and set lunch out,sit down with the children and just enjoy some time relaxing and eating...I don't want to turn it into an activity. With 2x3yr old and a 23m old who are well tracked and developing fantastically but she still wasn't happy. She was just asking too much of a single childminder who works on her own with no help or anything.
I do teach the children and always have done but for the inspector I wasn't doing enough.

[Simona]

What I'm trying to say is Simona, I am a teacher but I'm not a qualified teacher. As a 'teacher' I don't get a lunch break or a dinner hour.....I don't get 'teachers pay' I get minimum wage and in order to get minimum wage I have to have 17 children on my books. Silly comments about how I could incorporate a learning experience into lunch would be great, but for me after being on the go for 5.5hrs already I want to tidy up the craft we have done and set lunch out,sit down with the children and just enjoy some time relaxing and eating...I don't want to turn it into an activity. With 2x3yr old and a 23m old who are well tracked and developing fantastically but she still wasn't happy. She was just asking too much of a single childminder who works on her own with no help or anything.
I did teach the children and always have done but for the inspector I wasn't doing enough.

I see... but do bear in mind that teachers in free schools do not require any qualifications!!! the irony of it all!
and the govt wants to open another 500 of them!
The hot potato at the moment is the number of teachers who left the profession last year...strangely enough the same happened to cms and both are due to govt reforms and constant meddling in education and childcare issues.

I agree we do not get a lunch break, ...nor a guaranteed income because we are self employed...I would take that anytime over being a teacher and all the stress they are under at the moment

The inspector in my view made a mistake in her request to see how you 'incorporate' learning in the lunch activity...she should have just observed it and not categorised it as an activity...it is an every day occurrence not an opportunity!

As you say your children show progress and that is well evidenced ...what is it she was not happy with?
sounds like inspectors' training has not really changed anything if they still come along with personal judgement...that was the problem before hence their re training...wasted money if that is what we get from some inspectors!

[Mouse]

I think we're getting this cohort tracking wrong. It's not something we need to do so we can compare where the children are at, it' something we do to identify strengths or weaknesses of our provision.

If I did assessment summaries on my 7 EYs children, whose ages range from 12 months to 4 years, it would be pretty meaningless for me to use a school cohort tracking form to see how many children are at each development stage in each area of learning. I'd probably have one in each area and there would be nothing to compare.

But it is a useful exercise for me to compare the summaries and see if there are any areas where all the children are either exceeding their developmental expectations or not quite reaching them. If all the children show advanced development in gross physical development, I am probably doing something right, but if they all show they are not progressing as rapidly in fine motor development I need to look to see if I am providing sufficient activities in that area.

When I did that last year I realised that I wasn't providing enough mark making opportunities for the children to have regular access to. I didn't want pens left out all the time, so had to think up other ways of providing the opportunity. I got some blackboard-on-a-roll that I stuck on the side of a cupboard, I put magnetic writing boards in a basket along with mini aquadraw boards and I got some small clipboards that I tied pencils to. I then encouraged the children to use them during their play (eg. playing vets, I suggest they'd get a clipboard to 'write' notes, prescriptions etc) until it became second nature to them and they'd go and select one of the resources without me having to prompt them.

If I hadn't compared all the assessments I would have just come up with the children's individual next steps and may not have noticed a link between all of them. As it was, I was able to identify a weakness in my provision and show that I was considering the group of children as a whole.

[Simona]

I think we're getting this cohort tracking wrong. It's not something we need to do so we can compare where the children are at, it' something we do to identify strengths or weaknesses of our provision.

If I did assessment summaries on my 7 EYs children, whose ages range from 12 months to 4 years, it would be pretty meaningless for me to use a school cohort tracking form to see how many children are at each development stage in each area of learning. I'd probably have one in each area and there would be nothing to compare.

But it is a useful exercise for me to compare the summaries and see if there are any areas where all the children are either exceeding their developmental expectations or not quite reaching them. If all the children show advanced development in gross physical development, I am probably doing something right, but if they all show they are not progressing as rapidly in fine motor development I need to look to see if I am providing sufficient activities in that area.

When I did that last year I realised that I wasn't providing enough mark making opportunities for the children to have regular access to. I didn't want pens left out all the time, so had to think up other ways of providing the opportunity. I got some blackboard-on-a-roll that I stuck on the side of a cupboard, I put magnetic writing boards in a basket along with mini aquadraw boards and I got some small clipboards that I tied pencils to. I then encouraged the children to use them during their play (eg. playing vets, I suggest they'd get a clipboard to 'write' notes, prescriptions etc) until it became second nature to them and they'd go and select one of the resources without me having to prompt them.

If I hadn't compared all the assessments I would have just come up with the children's individual next steps and may not have noticed a link between all of them. As it was, I was able to identify a weakness in my provision and show that I was considering the group of children as a whole.

Yes I think the 'cohort' terminology will throw many.
The CIF does say to look at 'groups' to identify how the individual learning/steps affects other children in our provision
From what you say it has come out with the expected result of looking at what we offer as opportunities for all not just the individual child.
That is the problem with having one common framework where the terminology does not always reflect our practice.

[Simona]

If any cm, who has been inspected under the CIF and received a Good/Outstanding grade, is interested in writing up a small report of their experience the editor of PLA Under 5 Magazine would like to hear from you!!

Her email is Helen.bird@pre-school.org.uk
Good luck!

[SYLVIA]

When you say you had numbers in the garden, how did you have these? Also what was she expecting in terms of shapes in the garden?

I have laminated number (A4 size) for different topics. The ones that were out were printed on animal print card. I have various shapes inside, mirror shapes stuck to toy boxes, shape sorters etc. I told her we can take them outside. Then she saw a triangle and rectangle shape on the quadro tent frame we had made and decided shapes were covered anyway. Sparklebox have number printouts that I use a lot. I think she wanted shapes printed like the numbers but it could easily be shapes used with sand or shapes drawn on the floor with chalk.

[Simona]

When you say you had numbers in the garden, how did you have these? Also what was she expecting in terms of shapes in the garden?

Sorry to say this and hope you don't mind...just to clarify and not confuse anyone.

Ofsted are expected to observe and judge teaching and grade us ...judge how we translate the EYFS into practice...and we should expect inspectors to understand EYFS too!

Inspectors are not expected to see anything or pass personal judgements....it is what they do not see that cannot be ticked off against their pre-prepared list.

Many settings put numbers and letters in their garden or windmills and such like and that is their choice ...there is no requirement for that....outdoors is all the 7 areas combined.
Of course you can laminate numbers and letters but we can also offer opportunities for chalking, water painting and so on...the activities are limitless in a garden.

If an inspector had ever 'requested' to see anything I would have challenged!

[mumofone]

Sorry to say this and hope you don't mind...just to clarify and not confuse anyone. Ofsted are expected to observe and judge teaching and grade us ...judge how we translate the EYFS into practice...and we should expect inspectors to understand EYFS too! Inspectors are not expected to see anything or pass personal judgements....it is what they do not see that cannot be ticked off against their pre-prepared list. Many settings put numbers and letters in their garden or windmills and such like and that is their choice ...there is no requirement for that....outdoors is all the 7 areas combined. Of course you can laminate numbers and letters but we can also offer opportunities for chalking, water painting and so on...the activities are limitless in a garden. If an inspector had ever 'requested' to see anything I would have challenged!

Do we know what their list of actual requirements are?

[Simona]

Do we know what their list of actual requirements are?

Yes it is in the Ofsted guidance...how inspector use the evidence to grade us