'Underfunding' leaves CMs struggling to earn minimum wage
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  1. #1
    Simona Guest

    Default 'Underfunding' leaves CMs struggling to earn minimum wage

    I am so sorry...in fact very angry .... to read this type of misleading information about CMs....I have already approached NW on this so panic not and have been asked to write in if I wish...just in case this is seen as 'critical'....it is disheartening to read wrong descriptions of cms and our status

    Cms are NOT waged so they cannot be earning the MW...apparently that is how many cms who responded to the survey carried out by NW described how they pay themselves.
    If we were paid a wage we would not be able to claim 'self employed' allowances.

    Underfunding is certainly a problem...I see that Sarah mentions in her area providers lose £1 per hour...in mine the loss is up to £4 per hour per child.


    Exclusive: underfunding leaves childminders struggling to earn minimum wage | Nursery World

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    I must say, I was a bit confused when I read the bit about childminders being unable to pay themselves minimum wage.

    I don't know any childminders in my local group who talk about paying themselves a wage. They'll talk about net profit and say that when they work it out it equates to less than minimum wage, but none of us talk about our net earnings in terms of an hourly rate.

  3. #3
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    I must say, I was a bit confused when I read the bit about childminders being unable to pay themselves minimum wage.

    I don't know any childminders in my local group who talk about paying themselves a wage. They'll talk about net profit and say that when they work it out it equates to less than minimum wage, but none of us talk about our net earnings in terms of an hourly rate.
    There are quite a few 'confusing' bits in that article...not just about the MW.
    NW said it was the view of the 'majority' of CMs who responded to the survey.
    Unfortunately I do not subscribe to NW so did not see it shared anywhere to allow more CMs to do the survey

    It also mentions the SEED report which is not as popular as some are trying to project to us.
    It talks about CMs being unable to 'expand'...I wonder if anyone bothered to check the EYFS?

    All very negative and very worrying...the EY sector is not just nurseries!

    The ONE thing that needs addressing when people want to register as a CM is not just about 'paperwork' and Ofsted but how to become a successful small business and how to run one.
    Last edited by Simona; 22-09-2015 at 08:39 AM.

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    I've just subscribed on a 7 day free trial so I could read the whole article.

    Liz Bayram, chief exec of PACEY apparently says "For very many childminders, delivering the free entitlement means they can't secure the minimum wage. That is why so many childminders aren't delivering it"

    I do find it strange that they are talking about minimum wage for the self employed.

  5. #5
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    I've just subscribed on a 7 day free trial so I could read the whole article.

    Liz Bayram, chief exec of PACEY apparently says "For very many childminders, delivering the free entitlement means they can't secure the minimum wage. That is why so many childminders aren't delivering it"

    I do find it strange that they are talking about minimum wage for the self employed.
    Maybe she is confusing the nurseries that Pacey now represents? I have not come across that unfortunately or would have messaged Pacey.
    For Cms it is not a question of securing the MW but to adjust their fee structure when they offer the 15 hours.

    If you remember Mouse when we were discussing the response to the 30 hrs consultation many cms here were referring to the MW and inability to get to a figure for funding that sustain their business.

    Lots of work to be done to train some Cms well in understanding how to run a business and return a sustainable turnover!
    We soldier on!

    Just found a tweet from her and replied!!
    Last edited by Simona; 22-09-2015 at 09:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    I am so sorry...in fact very angry .... to read this type of misleading information about CMs....I have already approached NW on this so panic not and have been asked to write in if I wish...just in case this is seen as 'critical'....it is disheartening to read wrong descriptions of cms and our status

    Cms are NOT waged so they cannot be earning the MW...apparently that is how many cms who responded to the survey carried out by NW described how they pay themselves.
    If we were paid a wage we would not be able to claim 'self employed' allowances.

    Underfunding is certainly a problem...I see that Sarah mentions in her area providers lose £1 per hour...in mine the loss is up to £4 per hour per child.


    Exclusive: underfunding leaves childminders struggling to earn minimum wage | Nursery World
    £4 per child? per hour loss?
    Time Out.. The perfect time for thinking about what you're going to destroy next.

  7. #7
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCrakers View Post
    £4 per child? per hour loss?
    Unfortunately so.... funding for 3/4 year olds is £3.60 in my LA while the 'common' fee charged by nurseries and Cms is around £7 or even more.
    That loss is unsustainable whichever way we look at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    Unfortunately so.... funding for 3/4 year olds is £3.60 in my LA while the 'common' fee charged by nurseries and Cms is around £7 or even more.
    That loss is unsustainable whichever way we look at it.
    Wow..that's shocking. Mines only 12p an hour less (£3.75 and LA give £3.63) and If I have 3 funded children I lose £45 a month. They must be losing out big time.
    Time Out.. The perfect time for thinking about what you're going to destroy next.

  9. #9
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCrakers View Post
    Wow..that's shocking. Mines only 12p an hour less (£3.75 and LA give £3.63) and If I have 3 funded children I lose £45 a month. They must be losing out big time.
    Yes and that is why so few cms offer the funding here....they take the 2 year olds at £6.10 ph then at age 3 they are struggling with the drop in funding ...but...they have adjusted their fee structure to compensate ...still not viable.
    If you multiply £4 (loss per hour per child) x 570 hours over the year the loss is a staggering £2280...for 3 children is £6840!!

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    Is it due to the tax credit changes? Someone on FB was grilled by the tax people because her hours worked and money coming in was far too low. The government want to crack down on any small business that earns less than the minimum wage per hour.
    It should not apply to CMs as the work can go up and down.
    Need a laugh? Visit my website: www.unclegargy.deviantART.com

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    I spent a lot of time working with NW reporters on this story. It was well publicised on our Facebook group and NW set up a questionnaire which had a lot of feedback from hundreds of childminders.

    I repeatedly said we cannot compare what we earn with the minimum wage - they clearly didn't listen to that bit.

    However, please don't let it cloud the main thrust of the article which is that we need to be paid a fair amount from the Govt for the work we do with our funded children.

    Thank you.

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  13. #12
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah707 View Post
    I spent a lot of time working with NW reporters on this story. It was well publicised on our Facebook group and NW set up a questionnaire which had a lot of feedback from hundreds of childminders.

    I repeatedly said we cannot compare what we earn with the minimum wage - they clearly didn't listen to that bit.

    However, please don't let it cloud the main thrust of the article which is that we need to be paid a fair amount from the Govt for the work we do with our funded children.

    Thank you.
    Thanks for your feedback.
    Other CMs Contributed to this issue and you are correct the message that came out is not the right one...but yes funding has to be appropriate not just for CMs but other providers too.


    I spoke to NW, messaged Pacey who will go back to NW, spoke to NEYTCO trainers too and others on this.
    Unfortunately the full article is not like the one I posted...I believe it is much longer and available in hard copy.
    The survey would have been known only to those CMs aware of it....I only came across it today so missed the opportunity to contribute as did many other CMs....there was no sharing unfortunately not even on Twitter.

    The issue is to give CMs confidence to call themselves small businesses and not compare our ' earnings' to the MW.
    We are unique in the sector because we are self employed.
    I spoke to a few NEYTCO trainers/consultants at Big Childcare Conversation...they share the feeling that better training is
    required for some CMs to get empowered about our status and running a business.

    Let's hope things get better.

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    So am I wrong to say I wish my profits-per-hour came anywhere close to the minimum wage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    Thanks for your feedback.
    Other CMs Contributed to this issue

    Yes I know I pointed the writer in the direction of a lot of colleagues

    and you are correct the message that came out is not the right one...but yes funding has to be appropriate not just for CMs but other providers too.

    this article is specifically concentrating on childminders - not other providers for a change! Nursery World asked me about childminder issues and 100s of respondents on our Facebook page said the 30 hours funding is something that worried them so NW looked into it for us in a lot of detail.


    I spoke to NW, messaged Pacey who will go back to NW, spoke to NEYTCO trainers too and others on this.
    Unfortunately the full article is not like the one I posted...I believe it is much longer and available in hard copy.
    The survey would have been known only to those CMs aware of it....I only came across it today so missed the opportunity to contribute as did many other CMs....there was no sharing unfortunately not even on Twitter.

    there was plenty of sharing on Facebook - I was asked where the most cms could be reached in a few days to answer the survey and our Facebook group reaches a lot of colleagues very quickly. I understand NW advertised it in other places.

    The issue is to give CMs confidence to call themselves small businesses and not compare our ' earnings' to the MW.


    Why shouldn't the cms who only have 1 under 5 space earn minimum wage? Why shouldn't this be something we push for? Aren't we worth the minimum wage - or the living wage - like everyone else?

    We are unique in the sector because we are self employed.
    I spoke to a few NEYTCO trainers/consultants at Big Childcare Conversation...they share the feeling that better training is
    required for some CMs to get empowered about our status and running a business.

    Let's hope things get better.
    I am not sure why you are so negative about the message that has been shared in the article? We don't get enough income from the funding - and some LAs have reduced the amount of funding to £2 / £3 an hour - we are lucky that NW is fighting this for us - please don't lose the focus of the article because of semantics.

    Thank you.

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  18. #15
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah707 View Post
    I am not sure why you are so negative about the message that has been shared in the article? We don't get enough income from the funding - and some LAs have reduced the amount of funding to £2 / £3 an hour - we are lucky that NW is fighting this for us - please don't lose the focus of the article because of semantics.

    Thank you.
    On the contrary....not negative because the message is right...we are underfunded.
    I think if you read my comments below about what our local funding is you would not say that.
    my feelings are against the misinterpretation of our status which NW agreed on.

    There was no sharing about this survey and I am not on FB so could not see it.
    NW has a LinkedIn page but it was not there either.
    Those who spoke to NW about this have a regular communication with them.

    Many many CMs work behind the scenes on many issues relating to CMs ...it is a team effort
    What is disappointing is that whatever is said by others is taken as negative.

    Bunyip...you can call your hourly profit what you like but they are not a MW or even a living Wage , if I wanted to earn the MW I would go and get employed somewhere else

    It is the terminology I am negative about not the issue of underfunding...that is a battle going on at present.
    Last edited by Simona; 22-09-2015 at 08:46 PM.

  19. #16
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripeberry View Post
    Is it due to the tax credit changes? Someone on FB was grilled by the tax people because her hours worked and money coming in was far too low. The government want to crack down on any small business that earns less than the minimum wage per hour.
    It should not apply to CMs as the work can go up and down.
    Sorry I did not see your reply but very interesting.
    Tax credits and CMs have along history which I am sure CMs know about.

    I can possibly envisage the reason why someone would be asked that question...is the govt not trying to lower the threshold for tax credits? I think it was passed last week by MPs

    The govt can crack down on a lot of things and they will but they cannot call a small business earning the 'minimum wage' for the very reasons you mention....or expect a self employed to earn the MW.
    I am not sure where I read it but I saw the news the govt is trying to make unemployed people self employed....if that is true it says a lot on what they are intending to do.

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    I have just left childminding largely because the profits from my busy and successful small business were not close to what I would have earned for the same hours in any employment i.e equated to less than the NMW. I don't see why it is wrong to make those comparisons - I see that as being businesslike. I know a lot of childminders who bury their heads in the sand when it comes to financial matters and do not even monitor how much they are "earning", only to be dismayed when they come to do annual accounts.

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    It's nearly the end of the month and I'm going to be paid soon. But, there will be a difference this month from, say June for example, as July/August don't really count as I'm down numbers in holidays.

    The difference is I will be paid £135 less. Same hours, same children, same everything but funding kicks in!

    Now it's not as much as Simona quoted but I'm taking less money in. As I don't work Fridays I've convinced all funded mums to send their child to the local preschool every friday and encouraged them to give them as much funding as possible. They I have the 'left overs'. So I could be earning a whole lot less.

    Yes I know I'm self emploued and some months are better than other's but that normally rises and falls if you loose work or have space for new children to start, but when the children/hours are the same yet I'm earning less! I'm feeling annoyed. I need to earn a monthly salary to meet family bills.

  22. #19
    Simona Guest

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    Mummits...that is a fair question.
    There is nothing wrong in making the comparison so when you get to the end of the year you can work exactly how we earn compared to a waged person....but that comparison needs to take a account of several factors....including HMRC questioning Cms on annual earnings as mentioned by Ripeberry below.

    A waged employee (like a cm assistant) earns whatever per hour...minus tax and NI ...gets paid holidays and sick/maternity pay and now even a pension from the employer.
    That is not included in the comparison

    My point about comparison is that an employee does not have the benefits of a self employed person....and the drawbacks in others as we have to run a business and they don't.
    We do not have a pension, sick and holiday pay
    but
    we have 'tax free allowances', we can claim petrol and car expenses, we can claim part of our house insurance, mobile, phone and so on.
    We get grants and often loans.

    That is where I am coming from when I feel being compared to a waged person is unfair...for both the waged and self employed.

    I have 2 businesses and have had for over 30 years...but never heard this comparison being made before but I see the reason why NW printed it when they explained it....as did Pacey.
    Like many cms in my area I made the decision to not offer funding, having done so when it was very viable.
    Losing £4 per hour per child is not good for anyone's business.
    There are other factors too to consider but it is not worth going through them as it would be called 'negative' when in fact the label should a very different one.

    Leaving childminding for many is not about the earnings but the constant lack of differentiation between cms and the rest of the sector...the lack of representation....the constant trying to catch up with the world of nurseries whose head is deeply buried in the sand at the moment when they think EY is all about them....the constant negativity by Ofsted when it comes to CMs and the constant fear of the inspectors! ...and above all the loss of independence as Cms are torn between endless and useless guidance and terms and conditions by the DfE....Ofsted and the very poor LAs.

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  24. #20
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOH View Post
    It's nearly the end of the month and I'm going to be paid soon. But, there will be a difference this month from, say June for example, as July/August don't really count as I'm down numbers in holidays.

    The difference is I will be paid £135 less. Same hours, same children, same everything but funding kicks in!

    Now it's not as much as Simona quoted but I'm taking less money in. As I don't work Fridays I've convinced all funded mums to send their child to the local preschool every friday and encouraged them to give them as much funding as possible. They I have the 'left overs'. So I could be earning a whole lot less.

    Yes I know I'm self emploued and some months are better than other's but that normally rises and falls if you loose work or have space for new children to start, but when the children/hours are the same yet I'm earning less! I'm feeling annoyed. I need to earn a monthly salary to meet family bills.
    That is exactly what I was trying to suggest when we were discussing the funding consultation and CMs needed to arrive at a figure.
    it was suggested here the DfE did not want a precise figure...I think they do and that is what they are already suggesting for all of us.

    Each cm worked it their own way but a few started from what you said: 'how much I need to withdraw every month' to support my family, pay the mortgage and so on?

    The only thing I would ask is if you are reviewing your fees to cover the loss in funding...the rise in your NI...the rising costs of insurance and regulatory expenses?
    Nurseries have already announced their fees will go up to cover the loss but no one has said CMs need to do the same....instead we are portrayed as the Cinderellas of the sector once again.
    Last edited by Simona; 23-09-2015 at 09:19 AM.

 

 
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