Terminate part time to have full time child?

[S Stars]

Hello

I've not been on here for a while! Am hoping someone can offer me some advise!?
I have signed contracts with a family about 6 weeks ago to take on their 12 month old for two mornings a week - 6 hour dive since had a enquiry who want to use me and would be 27 hours a week which I can only do if I don't have the first child.
My question is should I honour my first agreement and hope I can fill the afternoons or do I terminate the contract ( due to start September) in favour for the full time child?
I have not given notice before and am worried that the parents will think I'm unreliable but at the same time my business head says it's the right thing to do but morally it's not!?

Thanks in advance xx

[mumofone]

I'd do what makes you the most money financially as youre a business but I think
Most people will respond to say you should honour your first parents.

[Simona]

Mumofone....Definetely we need to look after our businesses and ensure we are sustainable but we cannot act in a manner that may put potential customer off and ruin our reputation...without mentioning a parent complaining to Ofsted?

News will soon go around if a parent has been treated unfairly and that will spoil it for all of us....word of mouth is very useful but also very dangerous
Giving notice to a parent to take on another for more money can be 'seen' as discriminatory and breach equal concern issues...so caution is required.

SStar...Cms are allowed to look after 6 children under 8...that is in the EYFS 2012 and it has been discussed until we are all blue in the face and kind of sick of the topic.

Could it be 'possible' that you could consider your ratio in this?...talk to all the parents, Risk Assess and then if you are still not sure call Ofsted and ask for support.

Ofsted itself recently published a statement about Cms and our ratio and the conflicting advice we have been receiving.
The DfE also has confirmed cms can look after 6 children under 8...check it out and it may turn out to be something you can do

[Blueeyedminder]

Mumofone....Definetely we need to look after our businesses and ensure we are sustainable but we cannot act in a manner that may put potential customer off and ruin our reputation...without mentioning a parent complaining to Ofsted? News will soon go around if a parent has been treated unfairly and that will spoil it for all of us....word of mouth is very useful but also very dangerous Giving notice to a parent to take on another for more money can be 'seen' as discriminatory and breach equal concern issues...so caution is required. SStar...Cms are allowed to look after 6 children under 8...that is in the EYFS 2012 and it has been discussed until we are all blue in the face and kind of sick of the topic. Could it be 'possible' that you could consider your ratio in this?...talk to all the parents, Risk Assess and then if you are still not sure call Ofsted and ask for support. Ofsted itself recently published a statement about Cms and our ratio and the conflicting advice we have been receiving. The DfE also has confirmed cms can look after 6 children under 8...check it out and it may turn out to be something you can do

I disagree with regards to Ofsted and discrimination. Ofsted do not get involved with contractual matters and you should never not end a contract through fear of a parent complaining to Ofsted. Same for discrimination, if you give correct notice and follow the contract your back is covered.

Do what's best for you, your family and business.

[Simona]

I disagree with regards to Ofsted and discrimination. Ofsted do not get involved with contractual matters and you should never not end a contract through fear of a parent complaining to Ofsted. Same for discrimination, if you give correct notice and follow the contract your back is covered.

Do what's best for you, your family and business.

I don't think for one minute I suggested Ofsted get involved in our businesses....I think I have known that from the start
we do not agree on not having the problem of parents raising a complaint after what they see as unfair notice....have you experienced that?...maybe not.

Read my comment and you will find your comments are unfair and you have misjudged what I said.....no problem.
We are entitled to give notice if we truly cannot cater for parents' requirements...the issue here is different.

I also believe that if you give notice to a part time family to take on a full time one is In a way discriminatory...that is my view and I respect if you feel otherwise
I suggested an alternative to be considered....that is up to the OP to take into account.
There is truly no need for such unpleasant replies when this is supposed to be a supporting forum

[Blueeyedminder]

I don't think for one minute I suggested Ofsted get involved in our businesses....I think I have known that from the start we do not agree on not having the problem of parents raising a complaint after what they see as unfair notice....have you experienced that?...maybe not. Read my comment and you will find your comments are unfair and you have misjudged what I said.....no problem. We are entitled to give notice if we truly cannot cater for parents' requirements...the issue here is different. I also believe that if you give notice to a part time family to take on a full time one is In a way discriminatory...that is my view and I respect if you feel otherwise I suggested an alternative to be considered....that is up to the OP to take into account. There is truly no need for such unpleasant replies when this is supposed to be a supporting forum

First of all my comment was not unpleasant in any way, I was giving some advice to the OP.

I think you've got your wires crossed. I was not suggesting that you said Ofsted would get involved. I was simply stating to OP that Ofsted would not get involved as you mentioned a parent might complain to Ofsted.

P.S This is not an unpleasant post

[Mouse]

I'd do what makes you the most money financially as youre a business but I think
Most people will respond to say you should honour your first parents.

Look at it from another point of view.

What if you had booked in advance for 2 of you to go for a meal. The restaurant accepts your booking and you're all set to go.

Then they get a call from a family of 6 wanting to book the table, but they can't fit them in because of your booking.

If the restauarant phoned you and said they were sorry but they had to cancel your booking because they had a larger party coming in, would you say "that's fine. You're a business and and you have to do whatever makes you the most money?"

[mumofone]

Look at it from another point of view. What if you had booked in advance for 2 of you to go for a meal. The restaurant accepts your booking and you're all set to go. Then they get a call from a family of 6 wanting to book the table, but they can't fit them in because of your booking. If the restauarant phoned you and said they were sorry but they had to cancel your booking because they had a larger party coming in, would you say "that's fine. You're a business and and you have to do whatever makes you the most money?"

No id be ****** off but that's not to say I wouldn't understand why they did it! :-)

[Mouse]

No id be p!ssed off but that's not to say I wouldn't understand why they did it! :-)

But what would you say to anyone considering using that restaurant?

I don't think I could be so magnanimous and say "well, they cancelled us at the last minute so they could make more money, but that's fine, I understand why"?
I'd be more than likely to tell everyone to avoid them as they're unreliable!

[mama2three]

But what would you say to anyone considering using that restaurant?

I don't think I could be so magnanimous and say "well, they cancelled us at the last minute so they could make more money, but that's fine, I understand why"?
I'd be more than likely to tell everyone to avoid them as they're unreliable!

Me too. And once it becomes known that they do this then they will lose booking after booking - noone will book a special dinner if they cant be sure they wont get cancelled. What they have gained in income in the short term will have a big impact on their long term profitability. Just as it could for a childminder.

[Simona]

I think we have all 'amplified and branched off' from the OP but not really diverted....we are still well attached to the OP

Difficult to keep on track all the time unless we wear blinkers and do not see the 'many aspects' any thread poses and branch off and this question is particularly interesting
Other members may also pose additional questions during the discussion.
Fussy and Mouse ...I did reply to your comments ...did anyone check the sticky thread I made reference to? I reread it and there I found the emails posted for all to see.
Fussy...you in particular posed a very interesting question when you referred to this being an 'exceptional circumstance'
There are cms in this forum who I know have increased their ratio and said so...where are they ? can they help ?

Let's recap.....The OP is about S Stars who has a part time family starting in Sept for a baby and for two mornings a week ...this implies the cm has some hours of childcare left to fill according to how many hours SStars works every week and lets assume a full week is 50 hours (8am - 6pm)

Along comes a second family...they want 27 hours per week but SStars is unable to do unless she gives up the first family who has really not started yet....hope I got that right?

For a start neither family is actually 'full time'
should S Stars give notice to the part timer to accommodate the full timer ...who in turn is actually another part timer?
What I can see is a situation where there would be an 'overlap' in care ...S Stars can clarify this maybe.

Many cms say No to ending the 1st contract and I think this is right as the family may not like being given notice when the care has not even started
It would also reflect badly on the CM practice...the restaurant comparison was actually a very good one.

One suggestion I made was to reflect on an increase in ratio....considering neither family 'appears' to be full time.
Horror of horrors...I mentioned ratio!!! ...panic...what about Ofsted...is it allowed?

I posted the statement from Ofsted Gill Jones again...but S Stars is not sure because that would take her to having 4 children under 5...is this allowed?
is this continuity of care or new business?...well I think it is both but doable...this is my personal take after having put many scenarios to both DfE and Ofsted...so I said here I would definitely do it as I am confident of being able to both care and justify the decision

the answer is to approach Ofsted itself and get it clarified or in fact clarify to them what the EYFS says ...consult the families involved...do a RA.

Many many cms have been involved in the ratio saga not just myself and some in the forum...what about asking the parents who make the request to do a bit of work on this? could they contact Ofsted themselves and get this clarified?

Avoiding the ratio conundrum will not help Cms...it has not helped since 2012 and will not help in future when families will be asking for 30 hours of childcare...while cms here were saying ' No No' to an increase I know of cms who had successfully done it and got top grades

One advantage any cm who joins an agency will have is that the agency will decide for them on any ratio issue...so why should ICMs be disadvantaged by this never ending issue?

S Stars...hopefully you will be able to make the decision that suits you and the families involved ....good luck!

Last but not least I contacted 4 Children on Friday...and yes they would like to see DfE and Ofsted sing from the same hymn sheet on the ratio issue...now that is telling!

[bunyip]

I think we have all 'amplified and branched off' from the OP but not really diverted....we are still well attached to the OP

Difficult to keep on track all the time unless we wear blinkers and do not see the 'many aspects' any thread poses and branch off and this question is particularly interesting
Other members may also pose additional questions during the discussion.
Fussy and Mouse ...I did reply to your comments ...did anyone check the sticky thread I made reference to? I reread it and there I found the emails posted for all to see.
Fussy...you in particular posed a very interesting question when you referred to this being an 'exceptional circumstance'
There are cms in this forum who I know have increased their ratio and said so...where are they ? can they help ?

Let's recap.....The OP is about S Stars who has a part time family starting in Sept for a baby and for two mornings a week ...this implies the cm has some hours of childcare left to fill according to how many hours SStars works every week and lets assume a full week is 50 hours (8am - 6pm)

Along comes a second family...they want 27 hours per week but SStars is unable to do unless she gives up the first family who has really not started yet....hope I got that right?

For a start neither family is actually 'full time'
should S Stars give notice to the part timer to accommodate the full timer ...who in turn is actually another part timer?
What I can see is a situation where there would be an 'overlap' in care ...S Stars can clarify this maybe.

Many cms say No to ending the 1st contract and I think this is right as the family may not like being given notice when the care has not even started
It would also reflect badly on the CM practice...the restaurant comparison was actually a very good one.

One suggestion I made was to reflect on an increase in ratio....considering neither family 'appears' to be full time.
Horror of horrors...I mentioned ratio!!! ...panic...what about Ofsted...is it allowed?

I posted the statement from Ofsted Gill Jones again...but S Stars is not sure because that would take her to having 4 children under 5...is this allowed?
is this continuity of care or new business?...well I think it is both but doable...this is my personal take after having put many scenarios to both DfE and Ofsted...so I said here I would definitely do it as I am confident of being able to both care and justify the decision

the answer is to approach Ofsted itself and get it clarified or in fact clarify to them what the EYFS says ...consult the families involved...do a RA.

Many many cms have been involved in the ratio saga not just myself and some in the forum...what about asking the parents who make the request to do a bit of work on this? could they contact Ofsted themselves and get this clarified?

Avoiding the ratio conundrum will not help Cms...it has not helped since 2012 and will not help in future when families will be asking for 30 hours of childcare...while cms here were saying ' No No' to an increase I know of cms who had successfully done it and got top grades

One advantage any cm who joins an agency will have is that the agency will decide for them on any ratio issue...so why should ICMs be disadvantaged by this never ending issue?

S Stars...hopefully you will be able to make the decision that suits you and the families involved ....good luck!

Last but not least I contacted 4 Children on Friday...and yes they would like to see DfE and Ofsted sing from the same hymn sheet on the ratio issue...now that is telling!

I agree it was a useful tangent/diversion.

The point about ratios/excptions is a good one. But there really is a lack of clarity from the powers-that-be. Your final point is well made: if 4Children are frustrated by mixed messages from DfE-Ofsted, then there's every reason for CMs to be confusticated.

Perhaps we've overlooked the point that the OP might not actually want to go over ratio and have a 4th child to look out for. I can't speak for her, but it does bring a lot of extra considerations into the CMing day.

I worry that the more children we have, the less we can meet individual needs. I was talking with the mum of an autistic DS recently. She was really frustrated and quite angry about the lack of childcare options. She'd been to a lot of CMs who had no problem with taking on an autistic boy per se, and some had specific training and/or experience that would help her son. But CMs were basically refusing her a place because the additional work and attention needed would mean they wouldn't be happy taking on their full ratio of children in total, which would in turn limit their earning potential. One had even asked her to pay double because he'd effectively "be taking up 2 places". Tbh I was very shocked and felt they were riding roughshod over the Equality Act, though part of me could see the CM's side of it if it really does mean extra work and taking on fewer paying customers to meet the boy's needs properly.

And finally, what is a "sticky thread"? Sounds like doing cross-stitch with candy floss.

[S Stars]

Thanks for your replies .... How can I accomodate both as it would take me to 4 under 5 for two mornings? As far as I understand it I can't do this for new business? X

[Mouse]

Thanks for your replies .... How can I accomodate both as it would take me to 4 under 5 for two mornings? As far as I understand it I can't do this for new business? X

I agree with you and would say you can't do it as it's not an exceptional circumstance. I know the EYFS doesn't specifically mention 'new business' or 'continuity of care', but they do tend to cover when you can or can't exceed your numbers. Simona is confident that there are circumstances when you can exceed your numbers for new children, but it's something youhave to be certain about as you're the one who would have to justify it not her.

[Simona]

I agree with you and would say you can't do it as it's not an exceptional circumstance. I know the EYFS doesn't specifically mention 'new business' or 'continuity of care', but they do tend to cover when you can or can't exceed your numbers. Simona is confident that there are circumstances when you can exceed your numbers for new children, but it's something youhave to be certain about as you're the one who would have to justify it not her.

It is not me who is confident that we can increase our ratios...it is what Ofsted and DfE have clarified several times for CMs.
I have reams of emails from DfE to confirm that...but this issue will go on and on because CMs have lost confidence in what they can do for fear of being downgraded.
CMs have been downgraded in the past....not for having more than 3 under 5 but because they care of the children was not good enough....that is what the Ofsted panel told us at the London OBC
I have raised this issue at all the OBC meetings and I have attended them all...the answer has always been the same...yes it can be done as long as the care of all children is not compromised.

I also know of CMs who were graded either good or outstanding with more than 3 children
I hope someone gets it sorted for everyone's sake.


The ratio for CMs in the EYFS is 6 under 8
I will try to contact the Ofsted woman again next week.

[Simona]

Thanks for your replies .... How can I accomodate both as it would take me to 4 under 5 for two mornings? As far as I understand it I can't do this for new business? X

Read the message from Gill Jones again.....you can have 4 children under 5
If unclear check with Ofsted ...that is what they say we need to do ...or even better call the DFE and get it clarified
There have been reported cases of CMs having 4 and even 5 children under 5 ...in the right circumstances it is allowed...follow the EYFS and make sure you do all the required assessments.

[chris goodyear]

It's not something I would do and have always managed to fill awkward part time spaces. O.K it does make for more children but that can be a good thing as well as there can be a different mix of children. On the down side it can be hard in the holidays as we have to fit in gong out inbetween the comings and goings. Saying that as you haven't actually started with this child yet and if you really, really need the extra income maybe you could say that your circumstances have changed and can no longer honour the place but it might damage your reputation and to me that's the most important thing and it will stand you in good stead as the years go by.

[QualityCare]

It's not something l would do l see it as very unprofessional put yourself in the parents shoes how would you feel if it was done to you?

[Mrs Scrubbit]

Not something that I ever did when I c/minded. You knew and accepted their requirements when drawing up the contract, personally I think it would look bad and could give your business a bad name

[bunyip]

Personally I find it sad that the word "discriminating" has completely changed its meaning in my lifetime.

Previously, it was a good thing to be discriminating. Now it's a bad thing. All because the word has been hijacked and its meaning twisted.

It used to denote good taste and able to make good choices and judgements. Now it's just another ".....ism"-based label.