Terminate part time to have full time child?
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mumofone View Post
    No id be p!ssed off but that's not to say I wouldn't understand why they did it! :-)
    But what would you say to anyone considering using that restaurant?

    I don't think I could be so magnanimous and say "well, they cancelled us at the last minute so they could make more money, but that's fine, I understand why"?
    I'd be more than likely to tell everyone to avoid them as they're unreliable!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    But what would you say to anyone considering using that restaurant?

    I don't think I could be so magnanimous and say "well, they cancelled us at the last minute so they could make more money, but that's fine, I understand why"?
    I'd be more than likely to tell everyone to avoid them as they're unreliable!
    Me too. And once it becomes known that they do this then they will lose booking after booking - noone will book a special dinner if they cant be sure they wont get cancelled. What they have gained in income in the short term will have a big impact on their long term profitability. Just as it could for a childminder.

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    Personally I find it sad that the word "discriminating" has completely changed its meaning in my lifetime.

    Previously, it was a good thing to be discriminating. Now it's a bad thing. All because the word has been hijacked and its meaning twisted.

    It used to denote good taste and able to make good choices and judgements. Now it's just another ".....ism"-based label.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    Personally I find it sad that the word "discriminating" has completely changed its meaning in my lifetime.

    Previously, it was a good thing to be discriminating. Now it's a bad thing. All because the word has been hijacked and its meaning twisted.

    It used to denote good taste and able to make good choices and judgements. Now it's just another ".....ism"-based label.
    I maybe wrong Buynip but what you are referring to is : Discerning?...or is the English dictionary confusing me?
    Do bear in mind English is not my 1st language

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    I don't believe you can compare a booking a table at a restaurant and cancelling a cm contact.
    There's a contract involved with an agreed notice period included.

    I charged a flat fee of £30 a day per child regardless of the hours they required to avoid the situation OP is in.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueeyedminder View Post
    I don't believe you can compare a booking a table at a restaurant and cancelling a cm contact.
    There's a contract involved with an agreed notice period included.

    I charged a flat fee of £30 a day per child regardless of the hours they required to avoid the situation OP is in.
    I see where you are coming from...you can terminate a contract and give agreed notice
    OR
    you can terminate a contract immediately with 'fees payable in lieu'....this comes from one of the associations representing cms and solicitor's advice.

    Charging a flat fee...yes but is that not what parents are complaining about? being charged for hours not required?

    I did suggest that in both cases...restaurant or cm...there is an alternative: trying, if possible, to accommodate both.

    If I was presented with the same situation, rather than give notice to the part timer I would look at how to accommodate both and look at my ratios....I know this is something Cms are a little worried about but it can be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueeyedminder View Post
    I don't believe you can compare a booking a table at a restaurant and cancelling a cm contact.
    There's a contract involved with an agreed notice period included.

    I charged a flat fee of £30 a day per child regardless of the hours they required to avoid the situation OP is in.
    I don't think the comparison is between a cm and a restaurant more the fact that wherever you get bad service you are more than likely to tell people of that bad service . I think its 1 person will tell 1 person of good service but 1 person will tell 7 people of bad service. Then the waterfall effect of those people telling others.

    Maybe keeping the child on less hours is not good business sense for the cm involved however terminating because a better contract comes along could lead to the cm gaining a bad reputation locally.

    However if it makes the difference for the cm financially and money is why we do the job.

    Its a very difficult situation to be in and one that only the cm in question can really make.

    Personally I don't take on contracts that I think I would get terminate if something better came along but I don like the variation of days that's part timers give me
    When someone tells you nothing is impossible, tell them to go slam a revolving door

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    I maybe wrong Buynip but what you are referring to is : Discerning?...or is the English dictionary confusing me?
    Do bear in mind English is not my 1st language
    Evidently.

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    Thanks for your replies .... How can I accomodate both as it would take me to 4 under 5 for two mornings? As far as I understand it I can't do this for new business? X

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    Quote Originally Posted by S Stars View Post
    Thanks for your replies .... How can I accomodate both as it would take me to 4 under 5 for two mornings? As far as I understand it I can't do this for new business? X
    I agree with you and would say you can't do it as it's not an exceptional circumstance. I know the EYFS doesn't specifically mention 'new business' or 'continuity of care', but they do tend to cover when you can or can't exceed your numbers. Simona is confident that there are circumstances when you can exceed your numbers for new children, but it's something youhave to be certain about as you're the one who would have to justify it not her.

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  13. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    Evidently.
    Check the English dictionary and Thesaurus

  14. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by S Stars View Post
    Thanks for your replies .... How can I accomodate both as it would take me to 4 under 5 for two mornings? As far as I understand it I can't do this for new business? X
    Read the message from Gill Jones again.....you can have 4 children under 5
    If unclear check with Ofsted ...that is what they say we need to do ...or even better call the DFE and get it clarified
    There have been reported cases of CMs having 4 and even 5 children under 5 ...in the right circumstances it is allowed...follow the EYFS and make sure you do all the required assessments.

  15. #33
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    [QUOTE=FussyElmo;1405548]I don't think the comparison is between a cm and a restaurant more the fact that wherever you get bad service you are more than likely to tell people of that bad service . I think its 1 person will tell 1 person of good service but 1 person will tell 7 people of bad service. Then the waterfall effect of those people telling others.

    Maybe keeping the child on less hours is not good business sense for the cm involved however terminating because a better contract comes along could lead to the cm gaining a bad reputation locally.

    However if it makes the difference for the cm financially and money is why we do the job.

    Its a very difficult situation to be in and one that only the cm in question can really make.

    Personally I don't take on contracts that I think I would get terminate if something better came along but I don like the variation of days that's part timers give me [/QUOTE

    I don't think any cm takes on children with the intention of terminating a contract if something better comes along
    I fail to understand why no one has mentioned that a variation is possible in this case...or is the ratio for CMs still unclear and CMs fearful they cannot do it?

    I think it has been clarified very well by Ofsted and DfE that it can be done
    If this was something that was happening to me I would not hesitate to increase my ratios having followed all the guidelines,

  16. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    I agree with you and would say you can't do it as it's not an exceptional circumstance. I know the EYFS doesn't specifically mention 'new business' or 'continuity of care', but they do tend to cover when you can or can't exceed your numbers. Simona is confident that there are circumstances when you can exceed your numbers for new children, but it's something youhave to be certain about as you're the one who would have to justify it not her.
    It is not me who is confident that we can increase our ratios...it is what Ofsted and DfE have clarified several times for CMs.
    I have reams of emails from DfE to confirm that...but this issue will go on and on because CMs have lost confidence in what they can do for fear of being downgraded.
    CMs have been downgraded in the past....not for having more than 3 under 5 but because they care of the children was not good enough....that is what the Ofsted panel told us at the London OBC
    I have raised this issue at all the OBC meetings and I have attended them all...the answer has always been the same...yes it can be done as long as the care of all children is not compromised.

    I also know of CMs who were graded either good or outstanding with more than 3 children
    I hope someone gets it sorted for everyone's sake.


    The ratio for CMs in the EYFS is 6 under 8
    I will try to contact the Ofsted woman again next week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    It is not me who is confident that we can increase our ratios...it is what Ofsted and DfE have clarified several times for CMs.
    I have reams of emails from DfE to confirm that...but this issue will go on and on because CMs have lost confidence in what they can do for fear of being downgraded.
    CMs have been downgraded in the past....not for having more than 3 under 5 but because they care of the children was not good enough....that is what the Ofsted panel told us at the London OBC
    I have raised this issue at all the OBC meetings and I have attended them all...the answer has always been the same...yes it can be done as long as the care of all children is not compromised.

    I also know of CMs who were graded either good or outstanding with more than 3 children
    I hope someone gets it sorted for everyone's sake.


    The ratio for CMs in the EYFS is 6 under 8
    I will try to contact the Ofsted woman again next week.
    I think this is one of those things we'll have to agree to differ on Simona, although I completely respect your viewpoint and the work you have put into trying to get it clarified.

    Our ratio is 6 under 8, but also 3 under school age. We can go over the 3 EYs children in exceptional circumstances. Personally, I don't feel that having a new parent come along wanting a space that you don't have is an exceptional circumstance. It's what happens every day - parent contacts you, you don't have the space, so you say no.
    If you could take on anyone that came along, what's the point of having the 'maximum of 3 EYs children' in the EYFS?

    Each of us has to be confident that we could justify our interpretation of the EYFS should we be questioned on it. I am more than happy to have 4, even 5 on very rare occasions, when parents' work hours change, as that is how I interpret the rules. But I've never seen anything in writing if from the Dfe that I interpret as saying it's ok to go over ratios when there is no exceptional circumstance, or when it's to take on the child of a new family that has approached you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    I think this is one of those things we'll have to agree to differ on Simona, although I completely respect your viewpoint and the work you have put into trying to get it clarified.

    Our ratio is 6 under 8, but also 3 under school age. We can go over the 3 EYs children in exceptional circumstances. Personally, I don't feel that having a new parent come along wanting a space that you don't have is an exceptional circumstance. It's what happens every day - parent contacts you, you don't have the space, so you say no.
    If you could take on anyone that came along, what's the point of having the 'maximum of 3 EYs children' in the EYFS?

    Each of us has to be confident that we could justify our interpretation of the EYFS should we be questioned on it. I am more than happy to have 4, even 5 on very rare occasions, when parents' work hours change, as that is how I interpret the rules. But I've never seen anything in writing if from the Dfe that I interpret as saying it's ok to go over ratios when there is no exceptional circumstance, or when it's to take on the child of a new family that has approached you.
    I must admit I do agree Mouse.

    As you Simona, Rick and Sarah both have done a lot of correspondence with ofsted/dfe about our ratios I have yet to see one that says it is ok just to have 4 for no exceptional circumstances however if you have an email that states that we can I'm sure we would all like to see it
    When someone tells you nothing is impossible, tell them to go slam a revolving door

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  21. #37
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    Fussy and Mouse...thanks for your replies

    1. I have on several occasions reported on conversations I have had with Ofsted itself on this and with the DfE in particular...who incidentally write the EYFS but Tribal and Prospect have to 'understand' when judging cms.

    Ofsted themselves agreed at OBC that inspectors need better training on this...now is the time to raise it again as ALL inspectors are being trained for the CIF...grab the opportunity....make that call or write that letter or attend OBC itself....for all its faults OBC has actually been a very useful tool

    The DfE say EYFS is very unclear on ratios...it needs a desperate review...write to DfE and ask for this to be ASAP as the framework is really so out of date now.

    [B]I have copied extracts from emails from DfE and Ofsted[...to no avail and was not believed/B]

    2. I reported on the Ofsted workshop I personally arranged in 2012 for cms soon after when the EYFS 2012 came out with one of the Ofsted Officer where this issue was well covered and clarified.
    She is still very active and now is a trainer and writer.
    The minutes are still available...oh and Rickysmiths attended the workshop as well so she will remember! RS also attended the London OBC where I raised the ratio question to the Ofsted panel.

    3. I have emails from the current Ofsted Enforcement Officer on the ratio issue

    4. I have copied emails from DfE itself with whom I have had lengthy discussions on this...they are as clear as a bell on this issue
    The EYFS changed our ratio to 1:6 and our Ofsted certificates were updated for the purpose

    5. I have reported on all the OBC meetings where I have raised this each time and as recently as June.
    Look up the feedback I posted in this forum from June O'Sullivan blog and contact the Ofsted Enforcement Officer who attended to double check.

    6. I have spoken to many Cms and even Tribal and Prospect inspectors themselves who have confirmed how the ratio works.

    7. I have not been believed...in fact the forum admin has told me I am wrong because Ofsted tells them otherwise.
    Check the 'Sticky' post in this section for your answer
    Rick has posted replies from Ofsted and I have seen them....Ofsted say the same as DfE but in less words and in their usual waffling way.

    In there Rick and I agree to to disagree on this.
    He says the forum will continue to deal with Ofsted while I agreed to continue primarily with DfE and Ofsted too.

    In this forum cms have been 'discouraged' from increasing ratios for fear of downgrading...yes that will happen if the care is not good
    There are loads of blogs on this issue...it is quite worrying cms are still so unsure on this.
    Some cms increase ratios with confidence because they understand what they can do...those who ask are obviously unsure in which case they need to reflect

    The DfE has also asked 4 Children Foundation Years to help by putting the FAQs on their website...it is useless and very poorly worded....I contacted them but they never bothered to reply.

    This is really not something that has made any difference to me as I have always been very clear on the issue but I will go the extra mile and go a bit further.

    I think the forum should move all the 'ratio' threads in one section and understand how desperate this issue has become with so much uncertainty.
    The EYFS should be very clear ...no ifs and no buts....what is the point of a 'Statutory Framework' that is unclear and misleading?
    Last edited by Simona; 07-08-2015 at 08:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S Stars View Post
    Hello

    I've not been on here for a while! Am hoping someone can offer me some advise!?
    I have signed contracts with a family about 6 weeks ago to take on their 12 month old for two mornings a week - 6 hour dive since had a enquiry who want to use me and would be 27 hours a week which I can only do if I don't have the first child.
    My question is should I honour my first agreement and hope I can fill the afternoons or do I terminate the contract ( due to start September) in favour for the full time child?
    I have not given notice before and am worried that the parents will think I'm unreliable but at the same time my business head says it's the right thing to do but morally it's not!?

    Thanks in advance xx
    Sorry, we've all rather diverted from the OP.

    It's a tricky one and needs careful thought. Previous posters are right: it may damage your reputation and future offers of business if you're perceived to 'drop' children for something better. To be brutally honest, the impact will depend on how much gossip gets about and how many alternatives parents have for childcare. If you're just about the only show in town it will matter less than if the local supply of childcare places outweighs demand.

    There is another side to this. If the part-time contract is going to make your business unsustainable, and you've very little prospect of getting enough other work to improve that, then it may be a harsh decision you have to make to save your livelihood. TBH if you're talking about your last available space, then that's unlikely, but I don't know your finances.

    There is a 'grey area' that you need to consider. If you keep the part-timer and turn down the full-timer, how will you feel about it? Can you overcome the possible resentment or feelings of a 'lost opportunity'?

    Remember a lot of things are out of our hands. You could take on the full-timer, only for mum to change her job or dad be made redundant and then they don't need you. Or another part-timer might be able to slot in nicely around your current mindee. I've always done part-timers only, and found I can fill a lot of spaces with a little creative thinking.

    You have to consider all these things and learn to live with the fact that we can never control the circumstances within which we work. Our work depends as much on parent's needs/jobs as on our own abilities.

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  24. #39
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    I think we have all 'amplified and branched off' from the OP but not really diverted....we are still well attached to the OP

    Difficult to keep on track all the time unless we wear blinkers and do not see the 'many aspects' any thread poses and branch off and this question is particularly interesting
    Other members may also pose additional questions during the discussion.
    Fussy and Mouse ...I did reply to your comments ...did anyone check the sticky thread I made reference to? I reread it and there I found the emails posted for all to see.
    Fussy...you in particular posed a very interesting question when you referred to this being an 'exceptional circumstance'
    There are cms in this forum who I know have increased their ratio and said so...where are they ? can they help ?

    Let's recap.....The OP is about S Stars who has a part time family starting in Sept for a baby and for two mornings a week ...this implies the cm has some hours of childcare left to fill according to how many hours SStars works every week and lets assume a full week is 50 hours (8am - 6pm)

    Along comes a second family...they want 27 hours per week but SStars is unable to do unless she gives up the first family who has really not started yet....hope I got that right?

    For a start neither family is actually 'full time'
    should S Stars give notice to the part timer to accommodate the full timer ...who in turn is actually another part timer?
    What I can see is a situation where there would be an 'overlap' in care ...S Stars can clarify this maybe.

    Many cms say No to ending the 1st contract and I think this is right as the family may not like being given notice when the care has not even started
    It would also reflect badly on the CM practice...the restaurant comparison was actually a very good one.

    One suggestion I made was to reflect on an increase in ratio....considering neither family 'appears' to be full time.
    Horror of horrors...I mentioned ratio!!! ...panic...what about Ofsted...is it allowed?

    I posted the statement from Ofsted Gill Jones again...but S Stars is not sure because that would take her to having 4 children under 5...is this allowed?
    is this continuity of care or new business?...well I think it is both but doable...this is my personal take after having put many scenarios to both DfE and Ofsted...so I said here I would definitely do it as I am confident of being able to both care and justify the decision

    the answer is to approach Ofsted itself and get it clarified or in fact clarify to them what the EYFS says ...consult the families involved...do a RA.

    Many many cms have been involved in the ratio saga not just myself and some in the forum...what about asking the parents who make the request to do a bit of work on this? could they contact Ofsted themselves and get this clarified?

    Avoiding the ratio conundrum will not help Cms...it has not helped since 2012 and will not help in future when families will be asking for 30 hours of childcare...while cms here were saying ' No No' to an increase I know of cms who had successfully done it and got top grades

    One advantage any cm who joins an agency will have is that the agency will decide for them on any ratio issue...so why should ICMs be disadvantaged by this never ending issue?

    S Stars...hopefully you will be able to make the decision that suits you and the families involved ....good luck!

    Last but not least I contacted 4 Children on Friday...and yes they would like to see DfE and Ofsted sing from the same hymn sheet on the ratio issue...now that is telling!
    Last edited by Simona; 09-08-2015 at 09:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    I think we have all 'amplified and branched off' from the OP but not really diverted....we are still well attached to the OP

    Difficult to keep on track all the time unless we wear blinkers and do not see the 'many aspects' any thread poses and branch off and this question is particularly interesting
    Other members may also pose additional questions during the discussion.
    Fussy and Mouse ...I did reply to your comments ...did anyone check the sticky thread I made reference to? I reread it and there I found the emails posted for all to see.
    Fussy...you in particular posed a very interesting question when you referred to this being an 'exceptional circumstance'
    There are cms in this forum who I know have increased their ratio and said so...where are they ? can they help ?

    Let's recap.....The OP is about S Stars who has a part time family starting in Sept for a baby and for two mornings a week ...this implies the cm has some hours of childcare left to fill according to how many hours SStars works every week and lets assume a full week is 50 hours (8am - 6pm)

    Along comes a second family...they want 27 hours per week but SStars is unable to do unless she gives up the first family who has really not started yet....hope I got that right?

    For a start neither family is actually 'full time'
    should S Stars give notice to the part timer to accommodate the full timer ...who in turn is actually another part timer?
    What I can see is a situation where there would be an 'overlap' in care ...S Stars can clarify this maybe.

    Many cms say No to ending the 1st contract and I think this is right as the family may not like being given notice when the care has not even started
    It would also reflect badly on the CM practice...the restaurant comparison was actually a very good one.

    One suggestion I made was to reflect on an increase in ratio....considering neither family 'appears' to be full time.
    Horror of horrors...I mentioned ratio!!! ...panic...what about Ofsted...is it allowed?

    I posted the statement from Ofsted Gill Jones again...but S Stars is not sure because that would take her to having 4 children under 5...is this allowed?
    is this continuity of care or new business?...well I think it is both but doable...this is my personal take after having put many scenarios to both DfE and Ofsted...so I said here I would definitely do it as I am confident of being able to both care and justify the decision

    the answer is to approach Ofsted itself and get it clarified or in fact clarify to them what the EYFS says ...consult the families involved...do a RA.

    Many many cms have been involved in the ratio saga not just myself and some in the forum...what about asking the parents who make the request to do a bit of work on this? could they contact Ofsted themselves and get this clarified?

    Avoiding the ratio conundrum will not help Cms...it has not helped since 2012 and will not help in future when families will be asking for 30 hours of childcare...while cms here were saying ' No No' to an increase I know of cms who had successfully done it and got top grades

    One advantage any cm who joins an agency will have is that the agency will decide for them on any ratio issue...so why should ICMs be disadvantaged by this never ending issue?

    S Stars...hopefully you will be able to make the decision that suits you and the families involved ....good luck!

    Last but not least I contacted 4 Children on Friday...and yes they would like to see DfE and Ofsted sing from the same hymn sheet on the ratio issue...now that is telling!
    I agree it was a useful tangent/diversion.

    The point about ratios/excptions is a good one. But there really is a lack of clarity from the powers-that-be. Your final point is well made: if 4Children are frustrated by mixed messages from DfE-Ofsted, then there's every reason for CMs to be confusticated.

    Perhaps we've overlooked the point that the OP might not actually want to go over ratio and have a 4th child to look out for. I can't speak for her, but it does bring a lot of extra considerations into the CMing day.

    I worry that the more children we have, the less we can meet individual needs. I was talking with the mum of an autistic DS recently. She was really frustrated and quite angry about the lack of childcare options. She'd been to a lot of CMs who had no problem with taking on an autistic boy per se, and some had specific training and/or experience that would help her son. But CMs were basically refusing her a place because the additional work and attention needed would mean they wouldn't be happy taking on their full ratio of children in total, which would in turn limit their earning potential. One had even asked her to pay double because he'd effectively "be taking up 2 places". Tbh I was very shocked and felt they were riding roughshod over the Equality Act, though part of me could see the CM's side of it if it really does mean extra work and taking on fewer paying customers to meet the boy's needs properly.

    And finally, what is a "sticky thread"? Sounds like doing cross-stitch with candy floss.

 

 
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