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  1. #41
    Simona Guest

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    Does anyone know why OFSTED Factesheet no 120117 'The number and ages of children EY providers may care for' has been taken off their publication list?

    I know it is out of date ...Dec 2012...but why has it not been replaced with an updated version?
    thank you if you can help with this.

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    Think lots of factsheets have been removed whether they were out of date or not - think Sarah Neville was going to take this to the next OB.

  3. #43
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by hectors house View Post
    Think lots of factsheets have been removed whether they were out of date or not - think Sarah Neville was going to take this to the next OB.
    Yes I do remember Sarah was doing this at her meeting in Manchester and I will do the same for the London OBC
    I need the info on why they have not been replaced and updated so those helping in this issue know the background ...that factsheet states clearly we can have 4 under 5 in one of their examples.

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    Isn't this crazy? There should be a definite number shouldn't there? Or a very clear and definite exception. Too much grey area

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post

    I am sorry about this but this forum is the only place where cms have 'worries' about the number of children Cms can look after...the only place I read we can only look after 3 under 5...I think it is not so

    .
    However you are not a member of fb and so are not part of any childminding groups. So you will not have ever seen the questions being asked on there. Nor will you have seen the the number of childminders being told they cant take children to make their number to 4 without it only being a sibling.

    Just because the forum advises caution doesn't make us wrong to do so
    When someone tells you nothing is impossible, tell them to go slam a revolving door

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    Yes I do remember Sarah was doing this at her meeting in Manchester and I will do the same for the London OBC
    I need the info on why they have not been replaced and updated so those helping in this issue know the background ...that factsheet states clearly we can have 4 under 5 in one of their examples.
    This is taken from the removed factsheet

    Exceptions to the numbers and ages of children
    Looking after more children in the early years age group3
    5. In some circumstances, childminders may care for more children in the early years age group, providing they do not exceed the maximum number of six children at any one time. These circumstances are exceptional and are not intended to be the norm. How to decide on when to apply such an exception is explained in paragraphs 6–9. Childminders do not have to inform or seek permission from Ofsted to change the number of children they care for. However, they must be able to demonstrate at all times that they meet the needs of all the children who attend. This includes their care needs and helping them to make progress in their learning and development.
    6. Paragraph 3.40 in the EYFS allows childminders to care for myears age group if the children are aged four and five and attend other provision for a normal school day4 and/or the school holidays.
    7. Paragraph 3.29 in the EYFS also allows childminders to care for more children, including babies, in the early years age group through an overarching ‘exceptional circumstances’ statement. In each case, before agreeing to take on a baby or older child as an exception, the childminder must make sure they can continue to meet the needs of all the children who attend, including making sure children are safe and that they receive an enjoyable and challenging learning experience. The childminder must make this decision in relation to each child they care for as an exception. Paragraph 3.29 does not give the permission to operate with more children in the early years age group at all times without an assessment as to whether an exception is appropriate.
    8. Ofsted may also restrict the number of children childminders may care for through conditions of registration. We will only do this in circumstances where we judge a childminder cannot care for the full range of children, for example because they have a medical condition that might prevent them from lifting children.
    9. In all cases, when deciding to care for additional children in the early years age group childminders should consider:
     the length of time they are providing care
     whether their furniture and equipment is sufficient
     how they will deliver the learning and development requirements of the EYFS to all the children they care for and help them make the best possible progress
     how they organise their day so that all children get enough of their time
     whether they have assessed and mitigated any risks in relation to taking on any additional children, for example through considering how they might have to rearrange play spaces to cope with an extra child or manage outings.



    however with this now not being updated and removed can we still refer to it?
    When someone tells you nothing is impossible, tell them to go slam a revolving door

  7. #47
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by FussyElmo View Post
    However you are not a member of fb and so are not part of any childminding groups. So you will not have ever seen the questions being asked on there. Nor will you have seen the the number of childminders being told they cant take children to make their number to 4 without it only being a sibling.

    Just because the forum advises caution doesn't make us wrong to do so
    it is not a secret I do not have FB...what info I have I gather from other sources, discussions and meetings and lots more....I wish I could have taped the DfE call this morning.

    If cms are being told they cannot take 4 under 5 unless it is a sibling that appears to be wrong
    I see that caution is being encouraged but we want to resolve this so instead of caution we can take on what is legally allowed?

    From my Ofsted email and DfE call today we do have a lot of contradictory information....it has to be clarified.
    I have fought this issue since the EYFS 2012 was reformed... it is not a new stance

  8. #48
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by FussyElmo View Post
    This is taken from the removed factsheet

    Exceptions to the numbers and ages of children
    Looking after more children in the early years age group3
    5. In some circumstances, childminders may care for more children in the early years age group, providing they do not exceed the maximum number of six children at any one time. These circumstances are exceptional and are not intended to be the norm. How to decide on when to apply such an exception is explained in paragraphs 6–9. Childminders do not have to inform or seek permission from Ofsted to change the number of children they care for. However, they must be able to demonstrate at all times that they meet the needs of all the children who attend. This includes their care needs and helping them to make progress in their learning and development.
    6. Paragraph 3.40 in the EYFS allows childminders to care for myears age group if the children are aged four and five and attend other provision for a normal school day4 and/or the school holidays.
    7. Paragraph 3.29 in the EYFS also allows childminders to care for more children, including babies, in the early years age group through an overarching ‘exceptional circumstances’ statement. In each case, before agreeing to take on a baby or older child as an exception, the childminder must make sure they can continue to meet the needs of all the children who attend, including making sure children are safe and that they receive an enjoyable and challenging learning experience. The childminder must make this decision in relation to each child they care for as an exception. Paragraph 3.29 does not give the permission to operate with more children in the early years age group at all times without an assessment as to whether an exception is appropriate.
    8. Ofsted may also restrict the number of children childminders may care for through conditions of registration. We will only do this in circumstances where we judge a childminder cannot care for the full range of children, for example because they have a medical condition that might prevent them from lifting children.
    9. In all cases, when deciding to care for additional children in the early years age group childminders should consider:
     the length of time they are providing care
     whether their furniture and equipment is sufficient
     how they will deliver the learning and development requirements of the EYFS to all the children they care for and help them make the best possible progress
     how they organise their day so that all children get enough of their time
     whether they have assessed and mitigated any risks in relation to taking on any additional children, for example through considering how they might have to rearrange play spaces to cope with an extra child or manage outings.



    however with this now not being updated and removed can we still refer to it?
    I got that factsheet out and went through it again today.

    I also tweeted to Ofsted if they are going to republish it and update it...if I get an answer I will share.

    That factsheet was Dec 2012...the EYFS was tweaked again in 2014 but the cms section has remained the same...so I do not know why Ofsted have removed it?

    If it was useful then we should try to get it republished or, at least know why it was removed?

  9. #49
    Simona Guest

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    My Tweet to Ofsted: please can you confirm if you will publish an updated Factsheet 120117?
    Reply just now : Please now refer to EYFS for number and ages
    Not sure if that is what we wanted or is any clearer?

    Also called Ofsted helpline just now...same advise to refer to EYFS that factsheet is no longer valid.
    If we want it republished the operator suggested 'making a complaint to Ofsted and ask for republication'

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    Thanks for your time on this Simona.

    My only comment is that the EYFS needs looking at. I was surprised there were no major alterations to the ratios section in particular when the EYFS was revised last September.

    I certainly don't feel the wording at present allows a cm to exceed 3 under 5's for new business. If it is the case then it needs clarifying; either in the EYFS or a supporting fact sheet.

  11. #51
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Thanks for your time on this Simona.

    My only comment is that the EYFS needs looking at. I was surprised there were no major alterations to the ratios section in particular when the EYFS was revised last September.

    I certainly don't feel the wording at present allows a cm to exceed 3 under 5's for new business. If it is the case then it needs clarifying; either in the EYFS or a supporting fact sheet.
    No problem Rick...I will give this a lot of time until we get an answer
    I did tweet to Nicky Morgan asking if she could see the EYFS is tweaked and clarified because it hinders flexibility and choice to parents....no reply as yet from Sam Gyimah but he was busy at a conference today....we will wait and see

    I also got some extra info reinforcing what the DfE guy said about the EYFS being 'misleading'...I have emailed him as requested so let's hope the reply is not a standard one...I told him please not to send one that was just a repetition of what we know

    Any cm worried about this...please please raise it too
    Last is my association who are looking into it and of course OBC ...we need to raise it at all the 7 OBC areas so each Ofsted director takes the same message away

    I am beginning to see where the problem lies in all this ...but we need a statement and DfE and Ofsted talking to each other before the EYFS is tweaked again as it is ...in many areas....totally out of date.

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    Ofsted set up an evening webinar to explain they had removed a number of factsheets after being told their website was too cluttered.

    We were led to understand that the webinar would consult us on which factsheets we need.

    however at no point during the webinar was the question asked of us - I did complain afterwards but apart from a 'thank you for your comments' message I have not heard anything further.

    I have raised it at the Ofsted Big Conversation NW meeting in Manchester and it has also been raised by a childminder representative on the OBC Leeds group.

    Sadly too many inspectors are getting it wrong and childminders are being downgraded for reasons we know to be wrong. As a result we are very cautious in our advice ... Rick has done a lot of work with Ofsted and DfE and we now have letters clarifying what we can and cannot do - but inspectors are ignoring these as well.

    We are in a totally impossible position at the moment

    I am keeping it on the agenda for OBC North West and it is still on the Leeds agenda ...

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  14. #53
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah707 View Post
    Ofsted set up an evening webinar to explain they had removed a number of factsheets after being told their website was too cluttered.

    We were led to understand that the webinar would consult us on which factsheets we need.

    however at no point during the webinar was the question asked of us - I did complain afterwards but apart from a 'thank you for your comments' message I have not heard anything further.

    I have raised it at the Ofsted Big Conversation NW meeting in Manchester and it has also been raised by a childminder representative on the OBC Leeds group.

    Sadly too many inspectors are getting it wrong and childminders are being downgraded for reasons we know to be wrong. As a result we are very cautious in our advice ... Rick has done a lot of work with Ofsted and DfE and we now have letters clarifying what we can and cannot do - but inspectors are ignoring these as well.

    We are in a totally impossible position at the moment

    I am keeping it on the agenda for OBC North West and it is still on the Leeds agenda ...
    Thank you for that Sarah and I agree on many points
    Rick has done a lot and we now have an impossible situation...but one I think can be resolved if we keep our nerve and keep holding DfE and Ofsted to account and keep asking the same thing of them

    The EYFS is 'in effect misleading'...not my words but the DfE... and that is the first disadvantage for CMs, many genuinely wanting to help parents by taking on more children
    Why should cms be at a disadvantage under a common framework that is enigmatic to translate and interpret?...I can't see nurseries and preschools putting up with it.


    You are right ...inspectors are getting it wrong and I said I am 'beginning to see' where it has all gone wrong...what has happened and why.

    Thanks for reminding us of the webinar...I did not participate but I gather you did not receive a response.
    I fail to understand why asking for a factsheet to be republished is considered a complaint as the Ofsted helpline woman suggested?...she was helpful but said the same thing over and over again: refer to the EYFS now!....as I was talking to her Ofsted tweeted the same reply...so we have a new clue now....follow the EYFS and yes we want that when it is re written in plain English...I think that is coming but when I don't know...in fact a lot is going to be republished due to the common inspection framework.

    I think we need to put pressure on the DfE to tweak the cms EYFS section and raise it over and over again at OBC.
    3 OBC areas are on the ball ..there are 4 to go

    The Ofsted helpline woman also told me their website was overloaded...but that is our problem not hers....we can navigate the info we need.

    The Dfe is aware of cms concerns on ratios but I was unable to give details except cms being anxious at inspectors' individual interpretation ...I won't repeat what he said on that score!

  15. #54
    Simona Guest

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    Zanacal...your OP has now branched off to something a bit bigger
    Sorry about that but hope this will help you ...and many more CMs...in the end.

    I will continue to look into the matter and when I have news I will post in a new thread

    PS: has any cm ever seen/read an actual inspection report where another cm has been downgraded for having too many children?

    does anyone know if any cm has ever complained after inspection about being downgraded for having too many children?
    Last edited by Simona; 12-02-2015 at 08:22 AM.

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  17. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post

    PS: has any cm ever seen/read an actual inspection report where another cm has been downgraded for having too many children?

    does anyone know if any cm has ever complained after inspection about being downgraded for having too many children?
    Yes. My cm friend was graded inadequate as she had 4 children one day a week. Her report was worded that she compromised the safety and welfare of children by having more than she was allowed and was breaching legal requirements.

    She did complain after her inspection as the inspector had told her there was no such thing as continuity of care (she had the 4th child as mum had changed work hours and there was an overlap of 1hr45 mins). In her complaint she referred to that factsheet, that was till available at the time. She was told that yes, her case did fall into the category of continuity of care and that the inspector was wrong to say it didn't exist, but the inspector had judged that she wasn't able to meet the individual needs of all the children,so the inadequate grading stayed. She had to give notice to one of the children.

    She had a good monitoring visit a couple of months later and another inspection a few months after that She was absolutely crucified at the inspection, again graded inadequate (for completely different reasons) and is now looking for work elsewhere.
    Last edited by Mouse; 12-02-2015 at 09:33 AM.

  18. #56
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    Yes. My cm friend was graded inadequate as she had 4 children one day a week. Her report was worded that she compromised the safety and welfare of children by having more than she was allowed and was breaching legal requirements.

    She did complain after her inspection as the inspector had told her there was no such thing as continuity of care (she had the 4th child as mum had changed work hours and there was an overlap of 1hr45 mins). In her complaint she referred to that factsheet, that was till available at the time. She was told that yes, her case did fall into the category of continuity of care and that the inspector was wrong to say it didn't exist, but the inspector had judged that she wasn't able to meet the individual needs of all the children,so the inadequate grading stayed. She had to give notice to one of the children.

    She had a good monitoring visit a couple of months later and another inspection a few months after that She was absolutely crucified at the inspection, again graded inadequate (for completely different reasons) and is now looking for work elsewhere.
    That is very useful Mouse

    Although the Factsheet 120117 is not available anymore...continuity of care is clearly stated on page 7 and applied to your friend at the time from what you say

    What you say also confirms what I 'gathered' from the various discussions yesterday.
    A lot seems to revolve around evidence that any cm has to provide as proof of her decision to increase numbers, why and that the provision will not change....it is beginning to make sense to me.

    On a good note ...this issue is now going to be raised with Ofsted....just got confirmation of that.

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  20. #57
    Simona Guest

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    Got a tweet last night from Ofsted....at least they are acknowledging the query!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    That is very useful Mouse

    Although the Factsheet 120117 is not available anymore...continuity of care is clearly stated on page 7 and applied to your friend at the time from what you say

    What you say also confirms what I 'gathered' from the various discussions yesterday.
    A lot seems to revolve around evidence that any cm has to provide as proof of her decision to increase numbers, why and that the provision will not change....it is beginning to make sense to me.

    On a good note ...this issue is now going to be raised with Ofsted....just got confirmation of that.
    One of the frustrating things for my friend was that the inspector didn't even see her with 4 children. On the day of her inspection she only had 2 there, but the inspector could see from the register that she sometimes had 4. She initially said that continuity of care didn't exist, but when challenged on that agreed that it was possible, but from what she'd seen she judged that the cm wouldn't have been able to manage 4 children. My friend felt it was just an excuse to cover up the fact the inspector had been wrong about continuity of care not applying.

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  24. #59
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    One of the frustrating things for my friend was that the inspector didn't even see her with 4 children. On the day of her inspection she only had 2 there, but the inspector could see from the register that she sometimes had 4. She initially said that continuity of care didn't exist, but when challenged on that agreed that it was possible, but from what she'd seen she judged that the cm wouldn't have been able to manage 4 children. My friend felt it was just an excuse to cover up the fact the inspector had been wrong about continuity of care not applying.
    AH...we are going back to inspectors' training and individual interpretations which is what DfE is talking about.
    We also must remember that any judgement by inspectors goes back to the Ofsted Quality Assurance team...so if an inspector makes the wrong judgement the QA should be able to spot it?...if they can interpret the EYFS themselves that is!!

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    It's so wrong that depending on which inspector you get depends on what they know and how they make decisions .
    As I said before, I had 4 EY's children when I was inspected in 2013, at no point was it mentioned by the inspector other than as she was typing in her laptop where she just said to me "you have 4 early years children". I was then and will always be ready to argue my case about it if neccs.

    xxx

 

 
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