What can I do about the 15 minutes?!

[zanacal]

I have four children of my very own so I'm fairly confident with that ;-) During that 15 minutes one would be arriving and her mum is never in much of a rush, always comes in and tells me the news about her child - and the other would be getting his shoes and coat on ready to go!

[Simona]

I spoke to Ofsted and they said, unsurprisingly, it is my decision! He said I would need to evaluate and risk assess to demonstrate to carers and inspectors that I'm meeting the needs of the children and the EYFS. He also suggested that I speak with my Family Information Service and/or Local Authority advisor for their opinion. Thoughts?

So now Ofsted want us to speak to FIS and our LA? this is just so incredible since the EYFS is written by the DfE and Ofsted interpret it their own way...imagine what 152 LAs would do.

JCrackers is right...a variation for 15 mins would be the best solution as many cms have 4 children all day long
I still think we need this clarified and not having to go cap in hand every time we are trying to please parents
What I want to know is if a short overlap is the same as a variation...if so when EYFS is rewritten in the near future it should be clearly stated.

[zanacal]

The child would leave at the beginning of the Summer holidays too as starting pre-school in September!

[natlou82]

This whole thing is so annoying surely we should be able to cover 15 mins by a variation and risk assessment. As Simona says, they want us to offer flexibility but then there's these ridiculous barriers in our way. Ultimately you need to protect yourself and your business. Do you feel you could argue your case with a full signed risk assessment in place if you had an emergency inspection? I think covering yourself with your assistant is probably the best option but it still seems ridiculous!

[SYLVIA]

I can't see a problem covering 15 mins, it's just that it's for new business. Personally I would be risk assessing it and if you feel the children you have are "manageable" ones I would be doing it

[Rubybubbles]

Reminds me why I didn't vote for ratios to stay at 1:3!! If 1;4 had come through everything would be much clearer

[Simona]

I am not sure if an 'overlap' fits into the self variation context, new business or continuity of care??...that is why I am trying as hard as I can to get clarification....now awaiting Ofsted's response

To be truthful no one knows and the fact CMs continue to ask questions on this subject shows we do not trust what Ofsted are telling us...it has been 3 years since the EYFS was reformed and DfE fails to address this matter.
I cannot find any section of the EYFS that would cause nurseries and preschools such confusion so wht should it not be the same for us?


I too would risk assess and inform parents... overlap is something that could happen to us any day 'accidentally'...especially for those cms who do sessional care....it needs sorting and reflecting on.

the main unfair part of this saga is that the EYFS should not be leaving cms to guess and worry...Ofsted should not tell us 'it is up to you' knowing fully well their inspectors have multiple interpretations, they should have an answer and not refer us to the FIS or LAs...that is almost a joke

[Simona]

Zanacal...I got the reply from Ofsted

Your overlap comes under the number of children CMs can care for ...6 under 8 maximum...you can RA and inform parents and, as long as you take care of all children's needs ...it is OK

I am also informed there is no such thing as 'variations' anymore as Ofsted do not add conditions to the number and ages we can look after as long as it is no more that 6 under 8.

I hope that clarifies it for you and for us all

[SYLVIA]

So on that basis when my grandson starts with me next january and for 3 hours one day a week I will have 4 under 5 and 2 schoolies it will be fine?

[Rick]

Herein lies the problem.....

If you allow 15 minutes overlap for new business taking you over 3 under 5's, then why not 30 minutes or 3 hours?

My link above confirms new business taking you over 3 under 5's is not permitted.

Up to you if you feel 15 minutes deserves an exception to the wording in the EYFS but strictly speaking it doesn't. You would have to be confident explaining your actions to an inspector.

[Simona]

Herein lies the problem.....

If you allow 15 minutes overlap for new business taking you over 3 under 5's, then why not 30 minutes or 3 hours?

My link above confirms new business taking you over 3 under 5's is not permitted.

Up to you if you feel 15 minutes deserves an exception to the wording in the EYFS but strictly speaking it doesn't. You would have to be confident explaining your actions to an inspector.

Yes Rick...that is exactly how the officer at Ofsted put it: up to the cms to decide and feel confident in caring for all children's needs....as long as the number in 6 under 8....and the Cm able to explain it to an inspector.
The email does not mention new business or continuity of care....just that we are not allowed more than 6 under 8....That is how I have always understood it.

I can see that this is not going to resolve the problem and many may ask more questions which is fine if they are unsure.
I am absolutely clear now and I hope others will be too.

Although happy with the response I will take it further and will flag it up...again...at OBC. I would suggest other Cms can do that too and I am sure Sarah will do at her next OBC meeting on 28 February
I have also sent a message to DfE to tweak the EYFS in the next review....another wishful thinking but tenacity works at times.

[Rick]

I suppose the crux of the matter is this:

1. The EYFS isn't clear on some matters. This is the main issue....too much interpretation allowed on some matters by cm's and possible downgrading if an inspector does not agree with a cm's decision.

2. On this specific matter, there is nothing in the EYFS which allows you to exceed numbers where there are no exceptional circumstances. It states a max of 3 under 5's. It does not state you can exceed this figure with a risk assessment. Should the EYFS be amended to state every permutation allowed? Probably not as it would make it even more complicated. Would a fact sheet, similar to the number and ages of children which has been withdrawn, help matters? Definitely.

3. Should a 15 minute overlap be allowed? Common sense says yes but it is contrary to the 3 under 5's ratio so is a risk even if risk assessed appropriately. Yes cm's can increase to 4 for continuity of care, so we can presume most would cope with 4 for 15 minutes when it is new business, so why not a 15 minute overlap? The reason continuity of care is permissible: it prevents settled children having to leave the setting. If you allow 15 minutes, where do you draw the line?

[zanacal]

Thanks everyone. The parent has arranged to pick her child up at 1pm after all.

What gets me is that as a relatively new childminder, if I didn't belong to this forum I wouldn't even have heard the phrase 'continuity of care'. I would refer to the EYFS and then call Ofted and/or my Early Years Advisor (who is actually a great support) and both would have told me it's up to me and that if I risk assess I can do it!

[JCrakers]

The variation and ratio numbers thing is so confusing zanacal that even childminders who have been doing this since it came in are still confused.

We are supposed to be offering a flexible service to parents and how can we when we don't really know what we can and can't do. The problem we face is making the wrong decision and being labelled as overminding. It's a really bad system which doesn't really give us any support when making decisions.

[Simona]

I suppose the crux of the matter is this:

1. The EYFS isn't clear on some matters. This is the main issue....too much interpretation allowed on some matters by cm's and possible downgrading if an inspector does not agree with a cm's decision.

2. On this specific matter, there is nothing in the EYFS which allows you to exceed numbers where there are no exceptional circumstances. It states a max of 3 under 5's. It does not state you can exceed this figure with a risk assessment. Should the EYFS be amended to state every permutation allowed? Probably not as it would make it even more complicated. Would a fact sheet, similar to the number and ages of children which has been withdrawn, help matters? Definitely.

3. Should a 15 minute overlap be allowed? Common sense says yes but it is contrary to the 3 under 5's ratio so is a risk even if risk assessed appropriately. Yes cm's can increase to 4 for continuity of care, so we can presume most would cope with 4 for 15 minutes when it is new business, so why not a 15 minute overlap? The reason continuity of care is permissible: it prevents settled children having to leave the setting. If you allow 15 minutes, where do you draw the line?

Yes Rick you are partially right there...obviously the response I have received is not good enough so let's see if we can find another solution.

The EYFS is very clear about what we can do and I am frustrated that cms find it a worry to do what they are now allowed to do. Since 2012 when the EYFS was reformed there has been lots written on this subject and yes cms are allowed to care for 4 under 5 ...even 5 under 5 in the right circumstances.

The person who emailed me is not a civil servant at the DfE who writes 'standard letters' ...nor the phone operator at Ofsted....but one of the top officer in Ofsted...she knows what she is talking about...however I respect the fact you wish to doubt her statement.
Maybe the forum admin could find out who is at the top of Ofsted and write to them....she is well known and has even trained cms at conferences

Obviously her message is not believed....so on we go being 'confused'
I will print her email and keep in in my EYFS WR for any inspector to challenge...in addition I am now going to ring DFE and see if I can get any further with this conundrum

I am sorry about this but this forum is the only place where cms have 'worries' about the number of children Cms can look after...the only place I read we can only look after 3 under 5...I think it is not so

the best way is to find someone in the powers that be who is prepared to publish a statement for clarification....give me a chance and I will try to do so and come back.

In reply to zanacal and JCrackers...my opinion is that this matter has been confusing for a very long time but only partially and mainly here not if you speak to other cms
we need thousands and thousands of cms to now demand a clearer EYFS, to call Ofsted and DfE...let both Ofsted and DfE be inundated with enquiries...that would work I think.
Another way is to write to Sam Gyimah or even Nicky Morgan...they write the EYFS.

[Mouse]

Yes Rick you are partially right there...obviously the response I have received is not good enough so let's see if we can find another solution.

The EYFS is very clear about what we can do and I am frustrated that cms find it a worry to do what they are now allowed to do. Since 2012 when the EYFS was reformed there has been lots written on this subject and yes cms are allowed to care for 4 under 5 ...even 5 under 5 in the right circumstances.

The person who emailed me is not a civil servant at the DfE who writes 'standard letters' ...nor the phone operator at Ofsted....but one of the top officer in Ofsted...she knows what she is talking about...however I respect the fact you wish to doubt her statement.
Maybe the forum admin could find out who is at the top of Ofsted and write to them....she is well known and has even trained cms at conferences

Obviously her message is not believed....so on we go being 'confused'
I will print her email and keep in in my EYFS WR for any inspector to challenge...in addition I am now going to ring DFE and see if I can get any further with this conundrum

I am sorry about this but this forum is the only place where cms have 'worries' about the number of children Cms can look after...the only place I read we can only look after 3 under 5...I think it is not so

the best way is to find someone in the powers that be who is prepared to publish a statement for clarification....give me a chance and I will try to do so and come back.

In reply to zanacal and JCrackers...my opinion is that this matter has been confusing for a very long time but only partially and mainly here not if you speak to other cms
we need thousands and thousands of cms to now demand a clearer EYFS, to call Ofsted and DfE...let both Ofsted and DfE be inundated with enquiries...that would work I think.
Another way is to write to Sam Gyimah or even Nicky Morgan...they write the EYFS.

Unfortunately cms are still regularly being told at inspections that there is no such thing as continuity of care and that the only circumstances under which they can have 4 EYs children is for a sibling baby, or a baby of their own. So there is still a huge amount of confusion.

I know Rick and others have worked very hard to get confirmation that we can exceed ratios when a parent needs different hours etc (continuity of care), but inspectors still won't accept this and downgrade childminders. I have 4 children 3 days a week, all existing children whose parents have changed work hours. I have a folder of signed permissions, risk assessments, copies of letters people have received from Ofsted and the DfE, yet I still fully expect to be pulled up on it at my next inspection.

I'm pretty confident in my ability to argue my case with an inspector, but if they point blank refuse to accept my justification for continuity of care, what can I do?

[AliceK]

I have almost always had 4 under 5's and in the old days had written variation for it, now I RA myself if I need to grant myself an exception. It is rare I have a whole day with less than 4. They are all children who's familys have been with me for years, had the now older sibling and now have the newer younger siblings. It doesn't help that all my families are shift workers and so although I know the days / times a month in advance sometimes everyones shifts seem to coincide and I have very busy days / half days. When Ofsted inspected me in 2013 I had 4 EY's and nothing was said. I am confident in my RA, I know I can provide for all of the children so I will argue my case if it ever comes to it. I have tried time and time again to get a definitive answer from Ofsted but they will not commit. So I will do as I am doing. .

Thanks Simona for your answer on this .

xxx

[Simona]

I have just come off the phone to the DfE...someone has just given me nearly an hour of their time and we went through EYFS p24-25 and all the sections.

I explained clearly that EYFS cannot be 'interpreted' because it is a statutory framework and guess work won't do, either by us or inspectors.

DfE are aware of Ofsted 'individual interpretation' on cms' numbers, they are aware EYFS is effectively misleading and not as clear as it should be.
They endorse continuity of care but never heard of new business being a problem
They expect inspectors to follow EYFS not guess and produce their own interpretation

Please bear with me ...I totally appreciate the work being done by the forum on this but we are still none the wiser and I know Cms are turning away business because they fear inspectors...DfE endorse flexibility and choice.
What I have asked for is a 'clarifying statement' ...so let's hope we get to that...eventually especially with the new inspection framework kicking in soon.

I now need to email the query....I am also talking to my association on this.

PS: DfE has also pointed to EYFS page 22...last paragraph in that section 'Exceptionally, and where the quality of care and safety and security of the children is maintained, changes to the ratios may be made.
So do not just concentrate on pp 24-25

[Mouse]

Thanks for all your work Simona.

I think the big problem comes from inspectors being trained incorrectly, or from them applying their own interpretation.

I have already decided that when an inspector eventually phones to arrange my inspection I will discuss it with them then and make sure it's not going to be an issue on the day.

[Simona]

Thanks for all your work Simona.

I think the big problem comes from inspectors being trained incorrectly, or from them applying their own interpretation.

I have already decided that when an inspector eventually phones to arrange my inspection I will discuss it with them then and make sure it's not going to be an issue on the day.

You are correct Mouse....and DfE are aware that inspectors need better training on this...they need to follow EYFS not interpret it
Mind you the email from the Ofsted officer makes it clear what inspectors should look at and what we are entitled to do

I get the feeling EYFS is to be tweaked again so I politely asked for 'plain English'
I have just emailed my association's editor and CEO...let's see if they can get a joint statement from DfE and Ofsted on this in their magazine
I have a string of meetings in the next 2 weeks and I will raise this at every opportunity.

I wonder how cms have been so patient for so long over this...it is totally unacceptable
I have also tweeted this issue ...thanked DfE for their time this morning but let's move on now...enough is enough.