Children and choking

[snortlet]

My last inspection (Oct 2012) said I was not outstanding because I did not do self service free range snack. I argued that it wasnt appropriate due to reasons stated here plus a mindee on a special diet where food intake was carefully monitored. Inspector still put it in report. I do a range if fruits etc on a platter and children can choose and serve what they want and pour own water but around the table with us all sitting together!

[Mouse]

My last inspection (Oct 2012) said I was not outstanding because I did not do self service free range snack. I argued that it wasn't appropriate due to reasons stated here plus a mindee on a special diet where food intake was carefully monitored. Inspector still put it in report. I do a range if fruits etc on a platter and children can choose and serve what they want and pour own water but around the table with us all sitting together!

That goes back to a point I made before about really knowing our minded children. Over the years I have looked after children who, for one reason or another, could not have free access to food or drink. One child went to nursery and despite mine & foster mum's repeated requests that he wasn't allowed free access to the snack table, they still let him This child also needed constant supervision around any sort of messy play, but again, they just didn't seem to acknowledge this and he'd often come out having eaten something he shouldn't.

[mum67]

Can someone tell me what a self service free range snack is please as I thought a platter of various fruits/biscuits etc would be classed as such.

I am in total shock to hear a child choked on Jelly, something I always gave my own children when they were small as it is so light and soft, I never gave it as cubes, only when we had made it together in a bowl and the older ones loved to feed it to the babies in their high chair.

I am going to revisit my RA as mentioned, so sad for the little girl and her family.

How come Ofsted have not made it compulsory now for nurseries to make sure all their staff have FA training after these last few incidents of choking children in nursery settings.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention Sarah 707

[Maza]

DD's nursery did self service snacks. When I stayed for her settling in session I saw several children go over for their snack at various times of day and - you know what kids are like - they picked up several pieces of carrot before deciding which one they actually wanted. I wouldn't want to help myself to a snack from that table after that. Also, Ofsted are so hot on kids washing their hands before snacks (not just lunch and tea). Some kids were going straight from the sand or playdough table (and probably the loo before that) to the snack table. In another nursery I looked at, the snacks had clearly been out all day because the apples were brown and the carrots were withering. My daughter never helped herself to the snack table because she was she was so timid and shadowed her teacher all morning. In a way I'm glad for the reasons mentioned above, but if they had done a set snack time and monitored it then I am sure she would have enjoyed a nice healthy snack every day. x

[moggy]

Can someone tell me what a self service free range snack is please as I thought a platter of various fruits/biscuits etc would be classed as such....

This is where the snack table is set out and is left there all morning/afternoon so children can come and go as they wish. There was a fashion for this- to do with children being able to decide when they wanted to eat themselves, rather than having to wait for a designated 'snack time'. But there are many drawbacks too- depends on the setting and how it is managed.

[Simona]

The reason is that there is no requirements in the EYFS for nurseries/preschools to have ALL staff First Aid trained

The EYFS clearly has no such requirement as I have posted below ...Ofsted cannot impose expectations...they can only follow the DfE statutory framework and judge on its requirements

They are... however... as the regulatory body...sadly duty bound to investigate accidents and even death....that should be enough for them to recommend ALL staff are trained in this field regardless on which setting they work in.
Nurseries/preschools operate on different criteria and they are by no means breaking the requirements by having 'designated' First Aiders rather than all staff trained in FA


Recent deaths and other accidents should really make it clear to owners/managers that having all staff trained in FA would be advisable and may possibly avoid tragic events taking place

The inquest at the nursery where the child choked on a jelly cube reported the supervision was poor ... it did not say there was no supervision at all...I think it says there were not enough staff to supervise

It is certainly an area for improvement in large settings....hope they take the hint and avoid such tragedies in future

[fran90]

The nursery where I used to work were very hot on first aid. All staff were first aid trained and we had St. John's come in annually to give all staff refreshers and to hold classes for parents to undertake first aid. I don't understand why more nurseries aren't the same you can't put a price on a child's safety.

[Simona]

The nursery where I used to work were very hot on first aid. All staff were first aid trained and we had St. John's come in annually to give all staff refreshers and to hold classes for parents to undertake first aid. I don't understand why more nurseries aren't the same you can't put a price on a child's safety.

There are nurseries that train all their staff...while others simply follow the requirements...it could be question of cost...not just the training but the supply cover they need to put in place when staff attend training?
but the investment would be worth the money I think.

Training parents is also a wonderful idea...why not?

[mum67]

This is where the snack table is set out and is left there all morning/afternoon so children can come and go as they wish. There was a fashion for this- to do with children being able to decide when they wanted to eat themselves, rather than having to wait for a designated 'snack time'. But there are many drawbacks too- depends on the setting and how it is managed.

Thanks for that Moggy I have never heard of it before. School nurseries don't have snacks out all day only water and milk is available so why have Ofsted picked up on it for a childminder even after she has explained her reasons for not having a self service. Do some of these inspectors make their own rules up as well as our DO's? and when they file their report does anyone actually look at it because surely they should be questioned on their reasoning of things.

[mum67]

There are nurseries that train all their staff...while others simply follow the requirements...it could be question of cost...not just the training but the supply cover they need to put in place when staff attend training?
but the investment would be worth the money I think.

Training parents is also a wonderful idea...why not?

At my daughters school they have medics come in once a year and teach all year 6 first aid and the children love it. You hear them all telling their parents about what they learned at home time, we had to be guinea pigs for weeks after it whilst our daughter shown us what she knew. I think it is the sad reason again of penny pinching for the wrong reasons, I also know a woman who is a nursery worker and she said they really struggle to make resources last as the budget for it is sparse.

I agree that you cannot put a price on a child's life or anyone's for that matter.

[moggy]

Thanks for that Moggy I have never heard of it before. School nurseries don't have snacks out all day only water and milk is available so why have Ofsted picked up on it for a childminder even after she has explained her reasons for not having a self service. Do some of these inspectors make their own rules up as well as our DO's? and when they file their report does anyone actually look at it because surely they should be questioned on their reasoning of things.

Yes, inspectors make up all kinds of recommendations on reports, not 'rules' as such but reasons why a setting is not yet 'good' or 'outstanding' in their opinion. Because to meet the EYFS Framework word for word itself is not enough to get 'outstanding', it is the extras, the feeling of a place/person, the atmosphere, the subtly different ways of doing things that make a difference and get you the 'good' or 'outstanding'- but they are not written down in any rule book.

But, it does not mean that by just doing that one or two recommendations the setting would therefore be 'outstanding'... The way I see it, the inspector makes a mental judgement when they visit a setting, a gut-instinct, and then they have to think of a few recommendations to fill the box in their report form to say how they could improve.

Do you read Ofsted reports? It is an interesting thing to do- see Ofsted website- Reports page, search by setting type/location/date- read all the comments in the section about how the setting could improve... laughable sometimes, the things they say- that is where the comments/jokes like 'have to have windmills in the garden' come from!

You don't get to see the recommendations on the day of inspection, usually. You read them later when the report is sent to you to read. Yes, you have a chance to complain about what is in the report, but that takes a lot of effort and self-confidence- to be able to argue back to Ofsted. I think a lot of people are just glad it is over, are satisfied with their grade and realise that many parents don't worry too much about grades anyway.

[Simona]

if I remember correctly the 'cafeteria style' snack was very popular with inspectors prior to EYFS 2012
While some preschools and nurseries managed it very well...and it can be very good for children in terms of independence, helping themselves and recognising their need for food and drink... the settings' main concerns were that Ofsted expected the cafeteria open throughout the session...does anyone remember?

It caused various problems: some children never got any food...others were eating a lot...spillage... and food being eaten while children returned to play munching on biscuits and fruit

In schools...nursery and reception.... that idea would never take hold.
I would like to see an inspector challenge a school on that...children sit still on the floor and are not allowed to move...all that is on offer is water or juice and a digestive...has anyone seen any different from this in any school?

Personally and, possibly because of my culture, I detest seeing children sitting on nylon carpets while eating ...I know many will disagree

Most settings have now returned to the sitting down and the more social interactive opportunity for snack/meals...children can still help themselves but at least it is teaching them manners at the table...

I also think the 'free flow' took hold prior to EYFS 2012...while it can be an excellent way to extend child initiated learning there are also many disadvantages if it never has a mixture of adult led activities as well where the inspector can judge on the teaching and share an activity where both practitioner and inspector make observations?

Mum67...I think it would be a great idea if nurses and health professionals visited all settings...teaching directly to the children, parents and practitioners...one clear message for all

Parents would benefit from learning basic FA and accident prevention and basic safety for their children...use the settings as a Children Centre...can't imagine why it would not work....

...or is it just a dream? maybe the new education/health working together may achieve this

[Maza]

if I remember correctly the 'cafeteria style' snack was very popular with inspectors prior to EYFS 2012
While some preschools and nurseries managed it very well...and it can be very good for children in terms of independence, helping themselves and recognising their need for food and drink... the settings' main concerns were that Ofsted expected the cafeteria open throughout the session...does anyone remember?

It caused various problems: some children never got any food...others were eating a lot...spillage... and food being eaten while children returned to play munching on biscuits and fruit

In schools...nursery and reception.... that idea would never take hold.
I would like to see an inspector challenge a school on that...children sit still on the floor and are not allowed to move...all that is on offer is water or juice and a digestive...has anyone seen any different from this in any school?

Personally and, possibly because of my culture, I detest seeing children sitting on nylon carpets while eating ...I know many will disagree

Most settings have now returned to the sitting down and the more social interactive opportunity for snack/meals...children can still help themselves but at least it is teaching them manners at the table...

I also think the 'free flow' took hold prior to EYFS 2012...while it can be an excellent way to extend child initiated learning there are also many disadvantages if it never has a mixture of adult led activities as well where the inspector can judge on the teaching and share an activity where both practitioner and inspector make observations?

Mum67...I think it would be a great idea if nurses and health professionals visited all settings...teaching directly to the children, parents and practitioners...one clear message for all

Parents would benefit from learning basic FA and accident prevention and basic safety for their children...use the settings as a Children Centre...can't imagine why it would not work....

...or is it just a dream? maybe the new education/health working together may achieve this

I can definitely see the advantages of the buffet style snacks, but also the disadvantages. Schools are given free fruit for the children these days and in my experience it was good quality - pears/apples/Satsuma/banana or carrot sticks. I think most classes sat at tables but some probably would have sat on the carpet (I also don't like sitting on a dusty old carpet for snacks). The last school I worked at the parents had apparently opted out of the free fruit and wanted to provide their own. At my daughter's school we provide our own and the children have it outside at playtime from Reception upwards. Not perfect either for various reasons.

Our Surestart used to offer a free first aid course for parents. My hubby did it. I don't know if they still offer it though due to...cuts of course.

[mum67]

Thank you for your comments Simona and Moggy.

I do read some Ofsted reports albeit when I have looked on the family information service website to get an idea of what they do actually look for and I was amazed by one that was for a childminder near me who told me she just leaves the kids to play and doesn't do any activities such as fathers/mothers day cards, easter egg/bonnet making etc "Why should I" was her comment. Not my idea of interacting with the lo's but then I enjoy seeing their little faces when they achieve something or show me their robots with laser eyes and legs that turn into wheels (in their eyes and imagination, in reality its a few boxes with red tissue paper for eyes and 'square' wheels) lol but I play along because its so nice to see and be part of. Anyway getting back to my point, she got a 'Good'-shows she understands the children and provides good resources for their needs; communicates well and encourages their imagination! What is this the same person I heard speak those words I thought and what on earth did she make up for the inspection day as it worked well.

I also printed off the Ofsted are you ready for your inspection booklet and another about Ofsted grading and what they look for. But thank you Moggy for your suggestions. I am dreading my first inspection as I never feel things are right,so much pressure. Back to lots of bedtime reading for me I think Moggy lol

Simona I agree totally about health professionals teaching everyone, just look at how many lives have been saved since the defibrillator was introduced into so many work places, sports halls etc.

In my daughters school, fruit, milk and water is offered in nursery and reception. The nursery eat it on the carpet and reception can help themselves from the table. Fruit is free for children upto year 2 and the other years have to pay at break time. The government did their usual of Free to all and then took it back announcing it costs too much for them to provide (claiming for toilet seats or healthy children, if you get my drift).

Also I came into childminding under the EYFS 2012 guidance but do I still follow some of the old ones, such as free serving fruit etc or just follow the 2012? We never learnt about a lot of the things brought up on the forum so any advice is more than welcome.

I must apologise for my long reply I do try to keep them short but it never works.

Again I Thank You both.