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    Hi all

    I have my pre reg visit next Friday. I've already got children lined up etc but had another pArent visit this morning.

    At the moment on a Thursday I will have 2 sets of siblings. One set is 8month old girl and 2yr old boy and the ones that came this morning. 1yr old boy and 3 yr old girl.

    The first set will come 7:30-4:30. The second are wanting 7-1 for the 1 yo and 7-8:45 for the 3 yo. I've said this should be fine.

    This will mean for just over an hour I will be over ratio. But would this class as continuity of care?! As j will be having them on the Wednesday 7-12:30. Do I ring ofsted to ok this once registered or how does it work?

    Can anyone help please.

    B x

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    I think that this would be classed as new business rather than continuity of care, do I don't think that you can do it.

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    You will be registered for 3 under 5's. So you will not be able to take this second family on even if it is for an hour.
    When someone tells you nothing is impossible, tell them to go slam a revolving door

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    Agree with fussy and gef. You will be registered for 3 children under 5 years (including any children of your own). You cannot take a child on knowing that they will take you over your numbers even for a very short space of time - you do not have a space available for that child.

    New business cannot be classed as continuity of care as you are not providing any care to continue IYSWIM.

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    Yeah I see what you mean. Would it usually be ofsted I would call and ask?

    Going to try anyway can only try. I know people have had exceptions before so worth a try! X

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    You can take them on then maybe that week the mum may change her hours and you have to provide continuity of care and take them for that hour? Say to the mum that you may need to change the contract the following week if she is happy to do that x

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    Quote Originally Posted by BR23 View Post
    Yeah I see what you mean. Would it usually be ofsted I would call and ask?

    Going to try anyway can only try. I know people have had exceptions before so worth a try! X
    Ofsted don't deal with variations anymore we have make our own judgement on the eyfs regulations.

    However on this there is no exceptional circumstances for you to take on these children.

    Is it worth risking a inadequate for you first grading and if the inspector deemed you were over minding they would wait with you while you decided which set of siblings you had to give notice too and their parents too come. if you already have one set of siblings then you only have one space.
    When someone tells you nothing is impossible, tell them to go slam a revolving door

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    Quote Originally Posted by BR23 View Post
    Yeah I see what you mean. Would it usually be ofsted I would call and ask?

    Going to try anyway can only try. I know people have had exceptions before so worth a try! X
    Ofsted's usual reply to this sort of question is, "refer to EYFS". Irritating as it seems, they have good reasons for saying this. They are no longer foolish enough to leave themselves open to liability if things going wrong, and they are treating us a bit like adults who might actually read the regulations and follow them, instead of treating the regs as 'suggestions' that we might just be able to find a way to wriggle around. And whatever the trained chickens who run the phone line tell you really isn't going to interest your inspector.

    I see quite a few CMs who decide things are "worth a try" ( = let's see what I can get away with.) It's your business and your choice. You "can only try." ????? It's a risk. If I were a parent and prospective client, I'm not sure I'd want to leave my children with a risk-taker whose approach looks like one of seeing what they can get away with.


    Yes, I'm being harsh: because I don't want to see someone crash and burn. I can only say, "don't say we didn't warn you."

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    You have had good advice - please do not do this - you will be working above your ratios which is not complying with your requirements x

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    Quote Originally Posted by BR23 View Post
    Hi all

    I have my pre reg visit next Friday. I've already got children lined up etc but had another pArent visit this morning.

    At the moment on a Thursday I will have 2 sets of siblings. One set is 8month old girl and 2yr old boy and the ones that came this morning. 1yr old boy and 3 yr old girl.

    The first set will come 7:30-4:30. The second are wanting 7-1 for the 1 yo and 7-8:45 for the 3 yo. I've said this should be fine.

    This will mean for just over an hour I will be over ratio. But would this class as continuity of care?! As j will be having them on the Wednesday 7-12:30. Do I ring ofsted to ok this once registered or how does it work?

    Can anyone help please.

    B x
    I agree with others, this is not allowed under the EYFS. But you don't have to take our word for it. Why don't you ask the pre-reg inspector?

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    Also consider that if you are not working under your Ofsted regs (EYFS) then are you insured? Is it really worth it
    Debbie

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    Good grief I hope this post is a joke! If serious I am shocked at your attitude of 'couldnt really care less'.
    As others have stated you cannot do this even if you do try and call ofsted. The exceptions are there for genuine reasons and for you to take on two sets of siblings straight away to maximise your income does not come into it!
    I do apologise if I come across as extremely harsh but you dont seem to be taking any advice seriously.

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    I can see how it is so easy to want to take on the 2 sets as a newstarters and you need the business.I am in the same position myself. I restarted this week (as a lot of you may know). I have taken on one set of siblings for 2 days a week and I had another parent wanting another set of 2 to start on the same days. Whilst this would suit my days and mean I would not have to work another day, I just had to say "NO". It would be so easy to say yes and just go with it but I would be going against the rule of continutiy of care. It is not continuity of care. I only have one place available and had to refuse the business.

    At the end of the day, it is your business and you run it how you want to, however I agree with everyone else that you should not go with it. Just because other Childminders do it or have 'got away with it' does Not make it right.

    We all work really hard to maintain a professional status and working within the guidelines and requirements of the EYFS is one of them.

    Good luck with your Pre-reg visit.
    Last edited by MAWI; 07-03-2014 at 11:24 PM.

  17. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BR23 View Post
    Hi all

    I have my pre reg visit next Friday. I've already got children lined up etc but had another pArent visit this morning.

    At the moment on a Thursday I will have 2 sets of siblings. One set is 8month old girl and 2yr old boy and the ones that came this morning. 1yr old boy and 3 yr old girl.

    The first set will come 7:30-4:30. The second are wanting 7-1 for the 1 yo and 7-8:45 for the 3 yo. I've said this should be fine.

    This will mean for just over an hour I will be over ratio. But would this class as continuity of care?! As j will be having them on the Wednesday 7-12:30. Do I ring ofsted to ok this once registered or how does it work?

    Can anyone help please.

    B x
    BR 23.....You say you will be over the ratio for just 1 hour?
    I am sure you could try to resolve this in another way?
    I also understand you are getting your registration visit today...please feedback after so we know what the inspector has said to you...if anything at all and we can take it from there

    it is hard to support or give advice on this matter because neither the EYFS nor the judgement from inspectors is reliable or consistent...nor is the way EACH one of us interpret variations as they are very badly written on page 21

    In another thread there is a question about variations and how long they can stay in place....so even on that score none are too sure and the EYFS has been out a long time now and there is plenty on the fact they have to be for a limited period only

    I know people who have variated and done so over a very long period of time...were they wrong or doing exactly what the EYFS says....or interpreted on what it does not?

    so before I get told off for saying something wrong let me explain....

    - Cms have now the biggest chance and opportunity to input and make sure this is sorted 'once and for all' as the EYFS 2012 is 'under revision' again...at this very moment and will be by the end of April ready for September....not long

    - will we write to Lorna Fitzjohn Ofsted Director for Childminding on this issue and present our concerns to her?

    - Will CM attend the Ofsted Big Conversation in the Midlands where Fitzjohn is the allocated Ofsted Director and due to meet the sector soon in the next wave of OBC meeting?

    - will cms bring this matter in the open ...not just in this forum...and discuss it so all can help us because I have a feeling the rest of the sector has no idea that cms can self variate and have more than 3 under 5s under 'exceptional circumstances'
    Lucky for them the EYFS is extremely clear.

    - what are the representing associations doing about the variation saga fro Cms?
    They are best placed to bring it to Ofsted and DfE attention as they do meet regularly....Pacey used to have resolutions every year at their conference that the Board would try to resolve for their members....is this still the case for pacey or anyone else?

    - Will any Cms who cannot attend OBC meetings send their questions to anyone who does?....truly we should be attending in droves as Cms face the biggest series of reforms ever produced by any govt

    so please rather than disagree over a matter that we always have a different opinion on...lets be proactive...very soon the variations will be gone and forgotten under the new reforms

    I feel it is time we as a large section of the sector tried to resolve this anomaly in the EYFS

    While the destructive Truss goes on bleating about the loss of CMs ....which she has engineered to perfection since her appointment as Under Secretary to Gove ....and the lack of available spaces in childcare...what are we doing?

    ...disagreeing over 1 hour overlap which Truss herself promised to resolve in her reforms...she has not done so...maybe we should flag this up because she said it was outrageous...I agree with her there!

    I personally would like this matter resolved once and for all and so far I have seen very little action on it
    Can we put the same strength of feeling in this as we did the ratio? or some are putting in agencies while more vital matters slip away under our very nose

    I hope we can find a solution....my view of course

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    I am presuming that you are going to be required to take the 3 yr old to pre school. Have you thought about how you will manage this with 2 presumably none walkers and 2 young children? It's not easy, especially in the rain. I personally think you would be better off not taking the second set on but if you really want to and you think that you can manage then it's worth contacting ofsted or do you have a support childminder to talk to? Another thought - if you have a partner who is around at that time in the morning and could help, could you register them as an assistant?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sing-low View Post
    I agree with others, this is not allowed under the EYFS. But you don't have to take our word for it. Why don't you ask the pre-reg inspector?
    Sing-low, I think you've hit upon an excellent solution if the OP will but push your suggestion just a wee bit further.

    One of the bog-standard questions we can all pretty much rely on a pre-reg inspector to ask is, "Do you understand how many children you can look after?" Then we all roll out the answer about 6 under-8's, of which no more than 3 under-5's, of which no more than 1 under-1, and then the exceptions about baby twins, 'rising 5s' blah-di-blah-di-blah.

    How very simple. When Mrs O pops that particular question, all our OP need do is reply, "yes, I know the numbers but I intend to discount them and overmind from the start, especially if I can find a forum member to agree with me." Then all s/he has to do is see if Mrs O will register him/her on that basis, and find out whether the last few months of CYPOP 5, PFA training, and goD knows how much spent on resources has been a complete waste of time and effort. Sorted!

    Simona: I fully understand your campaigning approach to this matter, and have every sympathy, sharing your frustration over the fuzziness of issues surrounding ratios. But I think it behooves us on the forum to exercise extreme caution when responding to posts about specific cases. We all know that many aspects of the regs are illogical, but unless/until they are changed, we have to live with a "rules is rules" situation, and advise members accordingly. Hope you understand my uber-cautious approach: I don't want any CM to get into trouble and think, "but those lovely forum people led me to believe I had a case for getting away with this."

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    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    Sing-low, I think you've hit upon an excellent solution if the OP will but push your suggestion just a wee bit further.

    One of the bog-standard questions we can all pretty much rely on a pre-reg inspector to ask is, "Do you understand how many children you can look after?" Then we all roll out the answer about 6 under-8's, of which no more than 3 under-5's, of which no more than 1 under-1, and then the exceptions about baby twins, 'rising 5s' blah-di-blah-di-blah.

    How very simple. When Mrs O pops that particular question, all our OP need do is reply, "yes, I know the numbers but I intend to discount them and overmind from the start, especially if I can find a forum member to agree with me." Then all s/he has to do is see if Mrs O will register him/her on that basis, and find out whether the last few months of CYPOP 5, PFA training, and goD knows how much spent on resources has been a complete waste of time and effort. Sorted!
    Bunyip, that is not what I meant (but I think you know that )

  21. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    Sing-low, I think you've hit upon an excellent solution if the OP will but push your suggestion just a wee bit further.

    One of the bog-standard questions we can all pretty much rely on a pre-reg inspector to ask is, "Do you understand how many children you can look after?" Then we all roll out the answer about 6 under-8's, of which no more than 3 under-5's, of which no more than 1 under-1, and then the exceptions about baby twins, 'rising 5s' blah-di-blah-di-blah.

    How very simple. When Mrs O pops that particular question, all our OP need do is reply, "yes, I know the numbers but I intend to discount them and overmind from the start, especially if I can find a forum member to agree with me." Then all s/he has to do is see if Mrs O will register him/her on that basis, and find out whether the last few months of CYPOP 5, PFA training, and goD knows how much spent on resources has been a complete waste of time and effort. Sorted!

    Simona: I fully understand your campaigning approach to this matter, and have every sympathy, sharing your frustration over the fuzziness of issues surrounding ratios. But I think it behooves us on the forum to exercise extreme caution when responding to posts about specific cases. We all know that many aspects of the regs are illogical, but unless/until they are changed, we have to live with a "rules is rules" situation, and advise members accordingly. Hope you understand my uber-cautious approach: I don't want any CM to get into trouble and think, "but those lovely forum people led me to believe I had a case for getting away with this."
    I take on board what sing-low says and what you say too Bunyip but....
    The EYFS is not clear on this and if we ring Ofsted on this matter they will tell us ...'it is up to you to judge according to p21 of the blessed EYFS' ...so there are no rules just individual interpretations

    If I drove at over 70 miles on the motorway I would have no excuse if stopped by the police because the law is clear on speed...70 it is and no variation

    So why is the EYFS which is a statutory and legal framework so fuzzy?
    what is the reason for it to be so unclear?

    any member who asks questions on variations in this forum has to take our cautionary replies...I agree with that

    I know my frustration on this matter is very evident now...all I ask is: what is the solution?
    what can we do to bring it to the attention of the DfE who write the EYFS and get them to sort it out with Ofsted who have a mind of their own...in fact many minds because each inspector is different

    It is very useful to read all this as I intend to flag it up...I just hope we are united in wanting this issue solved once and for all...in addition to the notice for scheduled inspections which Ofsted have replied with the usual broad explanation that is not satisfactory...either we get a call or we don't...in which case the guidance has to be 'clearer' on that too and not allow inspectors to do as they please

    I think I will do what Sarah has done and write down the issues for CMs and present them at the OBC meeting in London
    I will also ensure my association is aware of them as I have an interest in speaking up for CMs

    The input here is very useful...thank you everyone
    Last edited by Simona; 08-03-2014 at 10:14 AM.

  22. #19
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    There is a very simple answer/solution, but it's not going to be a popular one.

    DofE/Ofsted could remove all the uncertainty at a stroke by removing the 'exceptional circumstances' provision.

    I'm not saying that would be beneficial or desirable, but if we push too hard, it could well be the unintended consequence we end up with.

  23. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    There is a very simple answer/solution, but it's not going to be a popular one.

    DofE/Ofsted could remove all the uncertainty at a stroke by removing the 'exceptional circumstances' provision.

    I'm not saying that would be beneficial or desirable, but if we push too hard, it could well be the unintended consequence we end up with.
    I slightly disagree...they could start by trying to make it less a guess for us and write the p21 EYFS section more clearly...in fact in 'plain English' not 'edu speak'.

    Yes it would be undesirable if the 'exceptional circumstances' were removed but who would it hurt if not the parents who the govt says 'need flexibility' and continuity of care and less red tape when looking for childcare?
    the result 'could' be that more parents choose schools over CMs where these problems will not arise....will schools offer care from 7am to 7pm?

    what we need to push for is clarity and someone to listen to us but the latter will be impossible...worth a try though in my view.

 

 
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