Shocking!!.....
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickysmiths View Post
    I do feel for you but when I started with my own two as a baby and toddler I had one child every afternoon and all I expected to make was enough money to buy all the birthday and Christmas presents and pay for the rent for two weeks on a cottage in Cornwall and I just about managed to do that.

    I must say my expenses are usually 30% or less and I keep an eye as I go through the year not to exceed this. If they were always a lot more than this it would not be worth me working. I lost 3 full timers within 3 months 3 years ago and it was devastating. I have only now three years on, built back up to that with one full timer who started in Sept, a 3 day a week who started in Jan and a 2 day starting in Feb with two after school. My income halved but interestingly even with the fixed costs my expenses still stayed at the 28 to 30% level. It would never be worth my while working if my expenses when over this because I wouldn't be left with any disposable income.

    Unlike your job I couldn't always leave it behind when I walked out at the end of the day, I often brought work home with me.
    How on earth do you keep your expenses below 30%? All the childminders I speak to say theirs are about 50%.

    xxxx

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickysmiths View Post
    Not really, they are most often here illegally, not paying tax or NI and not mean to be working here. They are lucky they get paid anything to be honest.
    Migrant workers are far more likely to be paying tax/NI and far less likely to be claiming benefit (fraudulent or otherwise) that UK-born people. Those who don't pay tax/NI are frequently unaware this is the case. They are paid cash-in-hand, a supposedly 'net' figure by farmers, gang-masters, agencies, etc. who claim to have made legitimate tax deductions, but who have in reality kept that sum for themselves and kept the whole thing off the books.

    There's quite a bit of evidence suggesting the largest group of illegal workers in the UK is still "old commonwealth" young, mainly white people from Australia/New Zealand/South Africa. But if they put a stop to that, you'd never get served in a bar in most of London.

  4. #23
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    I can see that many here are very up to date to what parents can or cannot get as help from the state but we are going round the same issue...that of parents benefits...how does that help our business?

    I do not look at parent extra help from the state when I look at my sustainability...what I work out is what fees I need to charge to cover my costs and make a decent living taking into account my setting and the service I offer

    As AliceK rightly says we cannot cut on our expenses...whether we have 1 child or 5 some expenses remain far to high...we may be able to cut on food but our insurance does not give us a discount because we have less children...M'ship stays the same...heating goes on whether we have 1 or 5 children

    We are looking at this from the wrong angle in my view...parents benefits have nothing to do with us or the fees we charge nor whether immigrants pay tax or otherwise...that's for the state to sort out.
    Last edited by Simona; 29-01-2014 at 11:25 AM.

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    I've suggested the overthrown of Late Capitalism in the past, but none of you guys were interested.

    Tbh, the Uk isn't yet ready for revolution.


    .............and anyway, it's raining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AliceK View Post
    How on earth do you keep your expenses below 30%? All the childminders I speak to say theirs are about 50%.

    xxxx
    If you charge a higher hourly rate it can mean the % on expenses is lower,
    Eg hourly rate of £3.50 with expenses that work to be £1.50 p/h means your expenses are 42% of income but with the same expenses but a higher hourly rate of £5 it means your expenses are 30%
    I aim to keep my expenses to 30% and if I really struggled to do that I would consider putting my fees up, no other buisness in this country would let the cost of expenses rise without passing that on to their customers

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    Quote Originally Posted by dawn100 View Post
    If you charge a higher hourly rate it can mean the % on expenses is lower,
    Eg hourly rate of £3.50 with expenses that work to be £1.50 p/h means your expenses are 42% of income but with the same expenses but a higher hourly rate of £5 it means your expenses are 30%
    I aim to keep my expenses to 30% and if I really struggled to do that I would consider putting my fees up, no other buisness in this country would let the cost of expenses rise without passing that on to their customers


    That's a good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FussyElmo View Post
    I don't think many families with 2 parents working will get 70% of their childcare paid.

    Also they wont get help with their rent if they are both working. Yes they may get tax credits but that doesn't dramatically increase the income.

    Single parents get more help with childcare tax credits then working couples do.

    I was so much better off being a working single mother than I am being part of a working married couple.
    That may be true but then they have two incomes.

  10. #28
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    If anyone files their accounts to HMRC in an Excel format...which you need to keep copies for the last 6 years...there is no way we can say expenses can be kept at 30%
    Just a quick comparison to ...say....2010 will show how much everything has gone up while we continue to charge the same fees and the Free offer has stayed roughly the same since it first was introduced
    Expenses cannot be calculated against the hourly rate but by adding your annual income and looking at what the expenses are

    Petrol, food and utilities have gone up by more than 30%...so have subscriptions, stationery, mobile charges, water, outings are very expensive

    Illegal immigrants have been mentioned below...the reason why some do not pay tax and NI is because they are used for work on a 'cash in hand' basis...therefore those employers failed to pay their share of tax and NI...it goes on everywhere

    This was very obvious last night in the BBC news report where we could clearly see the employer handing out £40 to the workers...no PAYE...just cash in hand so we have potentially double fraud from the employee and the employer

    I would like to see Ian Duncan Smiths chasing those employers instead of inflicting misery on the genuine needy in our country by slashing real welfare.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickysmiths View Post
    But those parents get help to pay their childcare don't they? They get up to 70% paid for by the government so it is not a realistic statement. So for every £100 of childcare the parent will likely only pay £30 out of their own pocket. My daughter is on min wage in a full time job and she could pay that % without much difficulty. I suspect that someone on min wage is unlikely to have a mortgage and will pay rent for which again they will prob have help?

    I have had many single mums on my books and do at the moment and not all of them have been high earners and in fact most far from it but they have managed to pay my fees with help from tax credits. I charge more than £5 per hour as well.
    I don't think many people get the 70% like they used to when first introduced - although when I returned to work after having my first child I only earnt £2.50 paid tax and NI (as the tax allowance was alot lower then), paid the childminder £1 an hour and took home about the same myself, as there wasn't any government help or tax incentives. In my area most childminders charge between £3.50 - £4.00 an hour, so 4 times what I used to pay my childminder 28 years ago, but not many office workers here earn £10 an hour - so wages haven't gone up by 4 times.

    I completely agree with what you say though about people who have only got space for one child because their own children are taking up the spaces need to see the whole picture which like you say - free childcare and no commuting costs. The only other alternative is working evenings and weekends in the supermarket while the dad or other family look after the children, meaning you don't get any family time - which I have also done.

    I am full, I earn £11.25 an hour and pay very little tax because of expenses - it wouldn't pay me to work say in a nursery on minimum wage, pay tax and NI and have to spend all my spare time doing housework and shopping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    Migrant workers are far more likely to be paying tax/NI and far less likely to be claiming benefit (fraudulent or otherwise) that UK-born people. Those who don't pay tax/NI are frequently unaware this is the case. They are paid cash-in-hand, a supposedly 'net' figure by farmers, gang-masters, agencies, etc. who claim to have made legitimate tax deductions, but who have in reality kept that sum for themselves and kept the whole thing off the books.

    There's quite a bit of evidence suggesting the largest group of illegal workers in the UK is still "old commonwealth" young, mainly white people from Australia/New Zealand/South Africa. But if they put a stop to that, you'd never get served in a bar in most of London.
    I know and I have provided childcare for many who have an excellent work ethic and a fab attitude to education. The ones highlighted on TV as 'only being paid min wage' were not like this though and were working illegally. The old Commonwealth rule may have been true 20-30 years ago but it isn't now. The majority of bar and restaurant workers are now Eastern European and not Australian.

  13. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickysmiths View Post
    I know and I have provided childcare for many who have an excellent work ethic and a fab attitude to education. The ones highlighted on TV as 'only being paid min wage' were not like this though and were working illegally. The old Commonwealth rule may have been true 20-30 years ago but it isn't now. The majority of bar and restaurant workers are now Eastern European and not Australian.
    Those people in the News were being paid £40 for 7 hrs of work which came to £5.71...below the minimum wage
    They were working so in my view justifying the reason why they came to this country: to seek work...what was illegal was the fact they had no contract ...just cash in hand from shifting heavy mattresses that no one else was offered to do who were seeking work from the Job Centre

    I hope I got that right from the tv report?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickysmiths View Post
    That may be true but then they have two incomes.
    yes that's true but that's why people think childcare is so expensive.

    2 parents earning minimum wage. They have 1 child but the childcare is the same price as minimum wage (suggested above) so they now only have 1 wage. Yes they are entitled to tax credits but that doesn't cover the wage they have paid out. So then starts the thinking that childcare is expensive. Heaven forbid they have more than 1 child needing childcare.

    So figure are 2 parents earning min wage working 40 hours earns £2019 a month. If they pay £4.50 an hour for childcare is £720 so then take away rent rough estimate £500 a month. Leaving then £799 a month for everything else. This is why people consider childcare expensive yes they may get some benefits to help top up their wages.

    Its not always about childcare being expensive its how its perceived
    When someone tells you nothing is impossible, tell them to go slam a revolving door

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    Quote Originally Posted by AliceK View Post
    How on earth do you keep your expenses below 30%? All the childminders I speak to say theirs are about 50%.

    xxxx
    Very easily I don't keep that much of a check on it it seems to be the natural level. Your fixed costs are not that high Insurance, IOC, Ofsted Registration, First Aid Training and Child Protection Training are the only Compulsory things I can think you have to have irrespective of the number of children you have or don't have in your care.

    £44 + (or £21 + Pacey membership £60), £35, £35 FA say £100 by 3 £33pa CP £30 so £10pa

    so annual fixed costs would be approx £157 to £194 even if you had no children on the role for a time these are the costs you would have to incur to keep your Registration 'live'. Approx £3.27 to £4.04 per week allowing for 4 weeks annual holiday a year. Now please tell me that unless you are unlucky enough to have no children or very few hours you cannot afford this as an expense?

    Even if you had the equivalent of one child for 40 hours a week this works out at between 8p and 10p per hour.

    You are then allowed if you are working 40 hours to off set some of your heat and light costs in your expenses (if you are not working at all these would be your own costs anyway). My 33% is currently approx £51.15 per month

    Food I calculate per meal currently 25p per snack, £75p per breakfast and £75p for lunch and £1.50 for dinner so if a child is with me 3 meals a day approx £3.25 per day so £16.25 per week.

    If I have a child 40 hours a week say on £3.00 per hour that is £120 so £40 in expenses as a max. With the above I have used £20.25 which leaves £19.75 for paperwork, crafts, petrol any outing costs which is a lot.

    Any toy replacement is covered under wear and tear and I don't usually spend more than £150 to 200 on any new ones in a year so less than £5 pw I then spend approx £100pa on sand, compost, seeds etc so another £2.50pw. So I still haven't spent the £40 pw and that is only for one child and a lot of the resources don't double if you have two but even if they do then I am still well within my 30%. If you charge more than £3ph then you have more income but your expenses don't always cost more.

    I find it really hard to see how people manage to spend more than approx 30%. It is a is a myth that the more you spend the less tax you pay because if you do that you only gain 20% and your income is a lot less. To be honest I would rather pay a bit more Tax and then have more clear income than buy loads of stuff I don't need.
    Last edited by rickysmiths; 29-01-2014 at 01:57 PM.

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  17. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickysmiths View Post
    Very easily I don't keep that much of a check on it it seems to be the natural level. Your fixed costs are not that high Insurance, IOC, Ofsted Registration, First Aid Training and Child Protection Training are the only Compulsory things I can think you have to have irrespective of the number of children you have or don't have in your care.

    £44 + (or £21 + Pacey membership £60), £35, £35 FA say £100 by 3 £33pa CP £30 so £10pa

    so annual fixed costs would be approx £157 to £194 even if you had no children on the role for a time these are the costs you would have to incur to keep your Registration 'live'. Approx £3.27 to £4.04 per week allowing for 4 weeks annual holiday a year. Now please tell me that unless you are unlucky enough to have no children or very few hours you cannot afford this as an expense?

    Even if you had the equivalent of one child for 40 hours a week this works out at between 8p and 10p per hour.

    You are then allowed if you are working 40 hours to off set some of your heat and light costs in your expenses (if you are not working at all these would be your own costs anyway). My 33% is currently approx £51.15 per month

    Food I calculate per meal currently 25p per snack, £75p per breakfast and £75p for lunch and £1.50 for dinner so if a child is with me 3 meals a day approx £3.25 per day so £16.25 per week.

    If I have a child 40 hours a week say on £3.00 per hour that is £120 so £40 in expenses as a max. With the above I have used £20.25 which leaves £19.75 for paperwork, crafts, petrol any outing costs which is a lot.

    Any toy replacement is covered under wear and tear and I don't usually spend more than £150 to 200 on any new ones in a year so less than £5 pw I then spend approx £100pa on sand, compost, seeds etc so another £2.50pw. So I still haven't spent the £40 pw and that is only for one child and a lot of the resources don't double if you have two but even if they do then I am still well within my 30%. If you charge more than £3ph then you have more income but your expenses don't always cost more.

    I find it really hard to see how people manage to spend more than approx 30%. It is a is a myth that the more you spend the less tax you pay because if you do that you only gain 20% and your income is a lot less. To be honest I would rather pay a bit more Tax and then have more clear income than buy loads of stuff I don't need.
    Who pays for your cots, bedding, bibs, high chairs, children's furniture, pushchairs, car seats, internet, printer, ink, computer, journals, diaries, disinfectant, sterilizing equipment, training (CPD), display boards, continual cultural and festival activities, birthday and christmas pressies etc.... etc..... etc.... there are so many other expenses - don't get me wrong I do heavily invest in my setting but I can definitely say 30% would not touch my expenses - it may cover my consumable items on a daily basis(I include everything) i.e. food, toiletries, cleaning products, arts and crafts and maybe amenities.

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    I agree with Rickys on the expenses. I think people think the more children you have the more you expenses will be. Whereas its usually the other way round. Other than food most other expenses are the same if you have 1 full time child or 3.

    So for example of you have one full time child and you need a new pushchair that's a sizable part of your income gone for the week its not if you have 3 children.

    Expenses are what they are if you can justify them is investigated
    When someone tells you nothing is impossible, tell them to go slam a revolving door

  20. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    If anyone files their accounts to HMRC in an Excel format...which you need to keep copies for the last 6 years...there is no way we can say expenses can be kept at 30%
    Just a quick comparison to ...say....2010 will show how much everything has gone up while we continue to charge the same fees and the Free offer has stayed roughly the same since it first was introduced
    Expenses cannot be calculated against the hourly rate but by adding your annual income and looking at what the expenses are

    Petrol, food and utilities have gone up by more than 30%...so have subscriptions, stationery, mobile charges, water, outings are very expensive

    Illegal immigrants have been mentioned below...the reason why some do not pay tax and NI is because they are used for work on a 'cash in hand' basis...therefore those employers failed to pay their share of tax and NI...it goes on everywhere

    This was very obvious last night in the BBC news report where we could clearly see the employer handing out £40 to the workers...no PAYE...just cash in hand so we have potentially double fraud from the employee and the employer

    I would like to see Ian Duncan Smiths chasing those employers instead of inflicting misery on the genuine needy in our country by slashing real welfare.....
    When I done the example showing expenses against an hourly rate I was trying to show how when you charge a higher hourly rate the % that is on expenses is lower I wasn't saying that's how you calculate expenses.
    I have not been running years so can't compare how costs have gone up but I make the most of groups that are free or cost very little, I go to the park, woods etc try drive as little as possible, get resources from scrap stores, people are always donating toys, I make my own story bags and music bags, I pay for annual membership to places and all this to try to keep my expenses around 30% mark, but I come from having previously managed in the retail trade so have been quite business minded from the start. How many cm have a budget each month? I do but i have yet to come across another cm who does. But even though I am careful with what I spend the kids dont miss out on anything, i have more resources than fit in my house, half are stired in the attic, i go to groups twice a week, in winter i also go to soft play at least once a month and sometimes once a week if the weather is really bad and we go to the woods or park every day, craft at least twice a week and then sensory play on the other days.
    When tesco's puts the price of food and fuel up do they think how will people afford it- no they put their prices up so they are still making a profit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koala View Post
    Who pays for your cots, bedding, bibs, high chairs, children's furniture, pushchairs, car seats, internet, printer, ink, computer, journals, diaries, disinfectant, sterilizing equipment, training (CPD), display boards, continual cultural and festival activities, birthday and christmas pressies etc.... etc..... etc.... there are so many other expenses - don't get me wrong I do heavily invest in my setting but I can definitely say 30% would not touch my expenses - it may cover my consumable items on a daily basis(I include everything) i.e. food, toiletries, cleaning products, arts and crafts and maybe amenities.
    Other than pushchairs and car seats all other equipment I have either had from my own or been donated by others. In my council all training I had attended had been free or heavily subsidised. I keep printing to a minimum and email as much as possible.

  23. #38
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    it is not really to do with what is investigated...it is to do with your business and what you put through as legitimate expenses:
    Direct costs
    Indirect costs
    Motor running
    Telecomms
    utilities
    depreciation

    New Resources should not all be part of your Wear and Tear but purchase of equipment needed for the business...again we do things differently...
    maybe someone would like to add the expenses incurred ..they will be more than 30%

    in addition what we get back for gas, electricity, water, council tax and wear and tear has not changed for the last 30 years...it is not adequate to cover the cost of running a business from home

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    I agree I don't see how peoples expenses are that high!
    I do same above when it comes to food etc
    Cuts etc how many times do you really buy them it isn't like your buying every year

    I look for bargains for my settings and I certainly don't go over board on the equipment

    I'm a single mum and I'm making a living out of childminding quite well

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    My expenses are much much higher. im in an area where rates are very low , but my expenses are just as high.
    My meal costs alone are around £5 per child per day , 3 meals , snacks , formula etc....
    Nappies , wipes and baby items are included here , I spend a lot on resources , outings , groups etc.
    I could cut some costs if Im honest , but feel it would affect the level of service I offer and so would be detrimental overall.
    My expenses last year were around 60% , so double what Rickysmiths were. But wholly justifiable and 'accounted for' should the need arise. Ive made a business decision to offer a service where rates are inclusive of food , nappies , outings etc - all within a daily rate of £35 for up to 11 hours 7am to 630pm. Its working well for me at the moment .
    yes I could probably earn more outside the home ...but then Id have to pay childcare for ds so would be worse off overall.
    I don't care whether joe blogs thinks im earning a fortune. my parents are happy to pay for a quality service , and im happy with what Im earning overall. Whether the woman down the street thinks Im loaded is of no interest to me. If the people who voice these opinions are pushed they usually admit they couldn't do our job for any amount of money!

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