Sorry tiresome ratio question

[jadavi]

Next feb a mum of a mindee I already have wants me to have her new baby. On one of the days - this will push me into having 7 kids (with an assistant )
Is there no way this is legal due to extra sibling rule? I can also have two assistants that day. Trying to see a way to help her as its the 4th kid and I have had while family and don't want to turn her down. I know we can easily cope.

[FussyElmo]

Next feb a mum of a mindee I already have wants me to have her new baby. On one of the days - this will push me into having 7 kids (with an assistant )
Is there no way this is legal due to extra sibling rule? I can also have two assistants that day. Trying to see a way to help her as its the 4th kid and I have had while family and don't want to turn her down. I know we can easily cope.

How many children do you have between you and your assistant? If its taking you to 7 between you then I would say thats ok as long as you have the space and you have checked with your planning department :-D

[jadavi]

Yrs it will be 7 under 5s all day

[jadavi]

I thought I read 6 was the absolute cut off rule and the flexibility with sibling and continuity care only referred to things like - could have two under one or four under three as long as it never exceeded 6

[sarah707]

6 is the absolute limit for 1 childminder working on their own.

You can have 7 if you have an assistant BUT...

You need to check you have enough space - Space Requirements - EYFS 2012

AND you might need planning permission for having more than 6 on the premises at a time - so you need to check with your council - you won't be insured if you need it and don't have it.

Hope this helps

[jadavi]

Thanks Sarah xx

[jadavi]

I thought six for a single child minder was total under 8? I thought it was three under five?
Sorry I know we've been over and over this.....

[Mouse]

I thought six for a single child minder was total under 8? I thought it was three under five?
Sorry I know we've been over and over this.....

That's something I've never been clear on.

A single cm could have 6 under 8, 3 of those being EYs children. With an exception they could have 4 EYs children, but never more that 6 under 8 in total.

With an assistant they could have 12 under 8s, 6 of those being EYs children. Can an exception still apply, so they could have 7 EYs children as long as they don't go over the total number or 12 under 8? Or is the absolute maximum 6 EYs children unless there is another assistant?

[jadavi]

Ah thanks - I'm with you. Yes with variations 7 under 5s with an assistant makes sense x
Cheers

[birch24]

That's something I've never been clear on. A single cm could have 6 under 8, 3 of those being EYs children. With an exception they could have 4 EYs children, but never more that 6 under 8 in total. With an assistant they could have 12 under 8s, 6 of those being EYs children. Can an exception still apply, so they could have 7 EYs children as long as they don't go over the total number or 12 under 8? Or is the absolute maximum 6 EYs children unless there is another assistant?

Yes that's how I understood it too. Maximum 6 under 8. A friend asked if she could have 7 under 5's with an assistant and was told that she couldnt even for a sibling. Sorry xx

[Simona]

Ah thanks - I'm with you. Yes with variations 7 under 5s with an assistant makes sense x
Cheers

Yes it is always 6 under 8 max but the over 8's do not count so you can have the six plus any older children as long as you have enough provision for them!!

[jadavi]

I thought Ofsted would not give an answer now telling you instead to work it out.
This is really important. In feb
I'll regularly have 7 due to a sibling . Will this be over numbers?

[jadavi]

Sorry that sent too early.

Could ask my Ey team.....

[birch24]

Sorry that sent too early. Could ask my Ey team.....

http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/filedownloa...or.doc&refer=0


I have found this publication as I work with an assistant an needed to know as well. Hopefully it we'll help in clarifying things:-) xx

[jadavi]

Thanks Birch

It won't open on my phone
Can you tell me the gist of it?
Cheers x

[birch24]

Thanks Birch It won't open on my phone Can you tell me the gist of it? Cheers x

The numbers and ages of children that providers on the Early Years and Childcare Registers may care for
A childcare factsheet


Age group: 0–5
Published: December 2012

1. The EYFS sets out the ages and maximum numbers of children up to the age of eight that childminders can look after in paragraphs 3.39 – 3.41. Childminders must take account of the following factors that may limit the numbers and ages they can care for:
 whether there are any other children under eight years of age who they regularly care for, including their own children, any foster children, children of relatives, or any other child they look after regularly without payment – childminders must include these children in the overall number that they may care for in this age range
 any children aged eight and over who they regularly care for, and whether these children affect the space available to younger children or the time the childminder can spend with them – childminders may have to reduce the number of children they look after if they care for older children; we will check if they meet the younger children’s needs at inspection
 whether any children or adults regularly present, including those they provide a childminding service for, have additional needs that require extra care – childminders may have to reduce the number they childmind if children have particular needs
 the space available for childminding: space requirements are set out in paragraph 3.56 of the EYFS – childminders must reduce the number of children they care for if they do not have enough space for the maximum number
 any health or other difficulties they might have that prevent them from caring for some children (such as difficulties in lifting) – if the childminder has such difficulties, we will normally restrict the number of children that they can care for in a condition of registration
 when looking after children overnight, whether they need to reduce the maximum number of children they can care for in order to meet any overnight needs, including sleeping arrangements and being within the hearing of the childminder.
Exceptions to the numbers and ages of children

Looking after more children in the early years age group

2. In some circumstances, childminders may care for more children in the early years age group, providing they do not exceed the maximum number of six children at any one time. These circumstances are exceptional and are not intended to be the norm. How to decide on when to apply such an exception is explained in paragraphs 6–9. Childminders do not have to inform or seek permission from Ofsted to change the number of children they care for. However, they must be able to demonstrate at all times that they meet the needs of all the children who attend. This includes their care needs and helping them to make progress in their learning and development.
3. Paragraph 3.40 in the EYFS allows childminders to care for more than one baby in certain circumstances. Childminders may also care for more children in the early years age group if the children are aged four and five and attend other provision for a normal school day and/or the school holidays.
4. Paragraph 3.29 in the EYFS also allows childminders to care for more children, including babies, in the early years age group through an overarching ‘exceptional circumstances’ statement. In each case, before agreeing to take on a baby or older child as an exception, the childminder must make sure they can continue to meet the needs of all the children who attend, including making sure children are safe and that they receive an enjoyable and challenging learning experience. The childminder must make this decision in relation to each child they care for as an exception. Paragraph 3.29 does not give the permission to operate with more children in the early years age group at all times without an assessment as to whether an exception is appropriate.
5. Ofsted may also restrict the number of children childminders may care for through conditions of registration. We will only do this in circumstances where we judge a childminder cannot care for the full range of children, for example because they have a medical condition that might prevent them from lifting children.
6. In all cases, when deciding to care for additional children in the early years age group childminders should consider:
 the length of time they are providing care
 whether their furniture and equipment is sufficient
 how they will deliver the learning and development requirements of the EYFS to all the children they care for and help them make the best possible progress
 how they organise their day so that all children get enough of their time
 whether they have assessed and mitigated any risks in relation to taking on any additional children, for example through considering how they might have to rearrange play spaces to cope with an extra child or manage outings.
Working with assistants or other childminders

7. If a childminder works with one or more assistants or in partnership with other childminders, they may be able to increase the number of children they care for to a maximum of six aged under eight for each adult caring for the children. However, some of the factors listed above, such as the space available and any restrictions we impose,, may limit the total number. There are also other factors that might prevent a childminder from doing this, which are not part of their registration as a childminder: for example the local authority’s rules for planning permission to run a business, and any tenancy or leasehold arrangement childminders might hold that prevent them from running a business from home. Childminders may wish to check these and also that their public liability insurance allows them to have extra children before deciding to do so.
8. If a childminder is working with assistants or other childminders, each person must meet the ratios at all times. The EYFS allows childminders to leave a childminding assistant unsupervised with children for up to two hours in a single day with parental permission. This permission must be in writing if the childminder is on the voluntary part of the Childcare Register. If childminders choose to leave children alone with an assistant they cannot leave an assistant with more than six children under eight and only three of these children can be in the early years age group and only one of these may be under one.
9. Although childminders may decide to increase the number of children they can care for when working with an assistant or another childminder, they must always tell us if they intend to work with an assistant, or if the people they work with change. This is because the law requires childminders to tell us about all people who are living or working on the premises where childminding is provided so that we can check to see if they are suitable to be in contact with children.
Examples

Example 1

10. A registered childminder is asked to take baby twins two days a week in addition to caring for a child of two full time. Her own children are aged six and seven and she has to take them to and from school. She decides that she can do so as she has made arrangements with the parents to use the twins’ own equipment, and she will use her bedroom as a sleeping area in addition to the areas of her house she already uses. She plans to use the school run as part of the arrangements for outdoor play, as she passes the local park on her way to and from school. She can spend time with the two-year-old while the twins are sleeping on the days they are with her, and plan additional outings to the local children’s centre on the days they are not. She consults the parent of the two-year-old before agreeing to take the twins.
11. We would judge at inspection whether the childminder’s arrangements for outdoor play and for the development of the twins and the two-year-old sufficiently met their needs, which is likely given the arrangements she has put in place.
Example 2

8. An individual has applied to become a childminder. As part of the registration process we undertook a check with her GP. The GP confirmed the childminder’s declaration of her long-standing back condition. This will cause her some difficulty in sitting on the floor and constantly lifting small children. The applicant talked to the inspector at the registration visit and explained she wished to be registered to look after children who need little lifting. She explained how she managers her condition with her own children who are now nine and thirteen years old. Her condition is controlled with regular exercise and pain relief. The applicant is not undertaking any treatment at the hospital and does not need to see a specialist. The applicant has a good understanding about her responsibilities and the requirements childminders must meet.
9. We judge that the applicant is suitable for registration but place a condition on her certificate that only allows her to care for children aged three and over. The applicant is reminded that should her health problem deteriorate to a level that may affect her suitability she should notify us.
Example 3

12. A childminder cares for three children in the early years age group. The parent of one of the children, a two-year-old who is with the childminder from 8am until 2pm, asks if she can extend the hours until 6pm. Her work pattern has changed and she must work full time for the next three months. This would mean that for three days a week the childminder would have four children under the age of five, as she currently looks after a three-year-old for three days between 3pm and 5pm. The parents of both children are keen to maintain continuity of care for their children who are very settled with the childminder. The childminder realises that she needs extra equipment and must change her daily routine so that most of her outings take place when she does not have four children. She borrows extra resources from the childminder resource centre.
13. We would judge at inspection whether the arrangements meet the needs of the children ad they are likely to do so.
Childcare on non-domestic and domestic premises: numbers and ages of children

14. When deciding on the maximum numbers of children they may take, group providers must take into account:
 the adult to child ratios set out in the EYFS paragraphs 3.27 – 3.38
 the children’s needs, including any identified additional needs that may require higher ratios
 the space they have available and how they organise it – the space requirements are set out in paragraph 3.56 and the accompanying footnote of the EYFS
 the ages of the children they take and how these are grouped
 staff qualifications and experience and how they are deployed
 the activities provided and whether these need additional adult support or specific qualifications. This especially applies to those providers on the Childcare Register who may offer, for example, specialist sports provision
 how they notify parents of the arrangements they have in place.
15. The EYFS sets out the minimum adult to child ratios. These ratios apply to all types of group care, including group care provided on domestic premises where four or more people work together. The ratios apply to the total number of staff available to work directly with children across the provision and not within individual spaces or rooms.
16. Many providers do not organise their provision in the age range groups set out in the adult to child ratios in the EYFS and must make decisions about numbers of children and staff in each area or for each group of children based on the needs of the children. When considering staff deployment, providers should take into account:
 the available space and how it is organised
 staff experience
 staff qualifications
 whether children at all times are within the sight or hearing of suitably checked adults who form part of the staff ratio
 the individual needs of children, including:
 what children are doing
 their personal and emotional needs
 the support they need to participate in activities, including any identified additional support
 the way that children are grouped
 times they may need additional support, such as on separating from their parents.
Examples

Example 1

17. A registered provider takes up to 40 children aged three to five years divided into three separate areas. The provider wants to extend its service to allow parents to take advantage of the Government’s offer of free early education for two-year-olds. In order to accommodate two-year-olds, the provider has allocated one of the three areas for children of this age. Its space allows for 16 children aged three to five but only 15 two-year-olds. The provider has two staff working in this area but this number of staff would only support eight two-year-olds. The provider decides to take on one additional staff member so that they may offer places to 12 two-year-olds in total. This is a reduction in overall numbers of four children and the provider intends to adjust information to parents to reduce the maximum number of children to 36 and change the age range. The provider has also bought new equipment more suited to the needs of two-year-olds and has plans to recruit a new staff member with specific expertise with this age group.
18. The provider intends to reduce numbers over time and has plans to offer more places for two-year-olds if take-up is good. The provider does not need to notify Ofsted of these arrangements. We will judge at inspection if the arrangements meet the needs of children. They are likely to do so because the provider has paid attention to the space available, staffing arrangements and the needs of two-year-olds.
Example 2

19. A registered provider looks after eight children with special educational needs in her own home where she employs three other staff to work with her. She wants to extend her house to create a larger space with disabled facilities to allow her to take disabled children. She has notified Ofsted of the additional room as this will affect the space available to children. The provider intends to take two additional children with disabilities and use one additional carer if she finds she cannot support the additional needs.
20. We have noted this information to check at the next inspection, and have brought forward the date of that inspection as we want to make sure that the needs of the children are met.
Example 3

15. An individual has applied to open a day nursery in a large converted house. The downstairs has four large rooms, two bathrooms, a utility area (that will be converted into a nappy changing area), a kitchen and a garden. The applicant intends to use two of the rooms (room A and B – 34.5 m² each) for 3–5-year-olds; one room (room C – 42 m²) for babies and those in nappies; and one room (room D – 60 m²) for toddlers out of nappies up to the age of three. The applicant has indicated on her application form that she intends to care for no more than 60 children at any one time in the four rooms, although the space for each room would indicate that she could take a maximum of 66. She explains to the inspector at the registration visit how she has arrived at this figure and shows the inspector her calculations based on the room sizes deducting space needed for furniture and equipment, including a fixed cupboard for storage.

[jadavi]

Thank you!

Clear then that each adult can have six each - space and LA permitting and risk assessed carefully.

Do we can have 7 or more.

Did I read it right?

Anyone disagree !?

[FussyElmo]

Thank you!

Clear then that each adult can have six each - space and LA permitting and risk assessed carefully.

Do we can have 7 or more.

Did I read it right?

Anyone disagree !?

No that's what it says each adult can have 6 under 8

[jadavi]

Yes but I am

Looking for 7 under three with a variation to I Clyde am assistant.

[FussyElmo]

Yes but I am

Looking for 7 under three with a variation to I Clyde am assistant.

Yes but exceeding your ratios will be classed as continuity of care