Ratios and the Eyfs 2014

[loocyloo]

I would just be useful to be told in black and white what all the scenarios for "exceptional circumstances" are as other than sibling baby everything else is open to interpretation by the Ofsted inspector on the day. I showed my inspector my letters to parents informing them about variations (continuity of care - parents needing to change or increase days) and she was fine with that, but we keep hearing about people downgraded for making variation decisions. We know the ratios for children under 8 - it's the ratios for under 5's that sorting out.

And if you have 3 mindees and one parent gets pregnant, then you are allowed 4 children due to sibling baby but what happens if 2 parents get pregnant, are you allowed 5 children due to 2 sibling babies? Or 5 children if 2 parents need to increase days, swap days etc.

Yes ... 'exceptional circumstances' needs further explanation! What is exceptional to me, might not be exceptional to someone else ( ie inspector! )

Currently I have 2 mums whose work days might change ... both might need a day I currently already have 3 children... actually, I wouldn't do it and have said I can't as it wouldn't work currently with the ages; but that's not to say that in a years time it wouldn't work.
I also currently have 4 children one day ... mum of one has had baby... if she asks me to take babe that day ... It's a sibling so do I have 5?

[Rick]

I would just be useful to be told in black and white what all the scenarios for "exceptional circumstances" are as other than sibling baby everything else is open to interpretation by the Ofsted inspector on the day. I showed my inspector my letters to parents informing them about variations (continuity of care - parents needing to change or increase days) and she was fine with that, but we keep hearing about people downgraded for making variation decisions. We know the ratios for children under 8 - it's the ratios for under 5's that sorting out.

And if you have 3 mindees and one parent gets pregnant, then you are allowed 4 children due to sibling baby but what happens if 2 parents get pregnant, are you allowed 5 children due to 2 sibling babies? Or 5 children if 2 parents need to increase days, swap days etc.

I think the point is there's a difference between what is technically possible and what's practically possible. Technically you can have 6 under 5. It will depend on the specific situation and how the inspector interprets it. We have always urged caution going over 4 under 5's for continuity of care. The more children you have, the harder it is to prove to an inspector that you are providing high levels of care and learning.

[Simona]

Very interesting responses...I feel you are shooting the messenger...and I have not even posted the DfE response....food for thought.

Rick...the replies I have received...15 pages of emails not counting the Ofsted's ones and the initial hour discussion with the first DfE person ...are not the same as the few I have seen before, including the reply from Hudson to the cm whose letter you posted in another thread.
By different I mean that the terminology is different now and the info has branched off in other directions

Cms can look after 4 under 5 or even 5 under 5...proven and tested even by Ofsted who have graded such CMs Good and Outstanding with those numbers.
Hint....if cms want to search the reports on these they can easily trace them back a couple of years.

The Forum urges caution.on the basis that Cms have reported being downgraded by the inspector? why did they get downgraded? that should be in their report.

The responsibility... according to Ofsted, DfE and 'inspectors' I have spoken to for advice on this ...is that the CM has to decide for herself, no 2 cases are the same.
No one can urge anything apart from taking a serious approach to RA and evidence ...agency Cms have to prove to their agency they can care for the increased number

what matters is that 'the needs of all children are met' when the cm uses a 'flexible approach' (quote) but they must prove so as long as it is not more that 6 under 8!



HH...you say you had 4 under 5 and I believe you were recently graded O?
Your inspector was OK with your numbers...but you keep 'hearing' about downgrading those who increased their numbers and it is the inspector's interpretation?...it is what she sees and hears on the day.
I have not heard anything like that...would those cms come and explain?

I would urge you contact DfE yourself and ask questions.

Loocyloo...you say you have 4 children one day?...how did you get to that being an 'exceptional circumstance'?
the inspector cannot decide what is exceptional...it is up to us to prove .
Maybe you too could email the DfE...see what reply you get

I personally believe we are handing Ofsted and DfE another stick to beat cms with...our inability to understand the ratio and the fact that we keep referring to variations when they do not exist anymore
This can be added to the inability to run a business as Truss used to say and the waffle Gyimah is using to flog agencies.

One thing I feel fairly confident is that the DfE woman must have contacted Ofsted before I received the reply because I have been told the reason Ofsted withdrew the factsheet 120117...which Ofsted did not address in my email.

Will the EYFS be tweaked to be a bit clearer?...it looks like it will be 'considered' according to the answer received ...on the basis of that I am off to ask more questions.

The DfE is also consulting with Ofsted and 4 Children on the 'possibility' of putting answers to the most FAQs...so we are making progress and there is hope!

[natlou82]

I really appreciate how much work and effort you are putting into this Simona. I personally felt reassured by yourself on a previous thread. I do have a continuity of care situation where it could be helpful to the parents if I went to 4 under 5's but at this present time I have risk assessed and thought about my abilities and decided against it. As you have said some CMs may handle 4 under 5's with ease but due to my experience level and the fact that 2 of my LO's are under 2 it's not right for me at the moment.

[julie w]

I posted on here a while ago as a parent needs to swap a day due to her uni changing her days which will take me to 4 on a Wednesday.However theres nowhere (that I can find in EYFS) that says 'continuity of care'
3.42. If a childminder can demonstrate to parents and/or carers and Ofsted inspectors or their childminder agency that the individual needs of all the children are being met, exceptions to the usual ratios can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby. If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children. But in all circumstances, the total number of children under the age of eight being cared for must not exceed six.

[Rick]

I posted on here a while ago as a parent needs to swap a day due to her uni changing her days which will take me to 4 on a Wednesday.However theres nowhere (that I can find in EYFS) that says 'continuity of care'
3.42. If a childminder can demonstrate to parents and/or carers and Ofsted inspectors or their childminder agency that the individual needs of all the children are being met, exceptions to the usual ratios can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby. If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children. But in all circumstances, the total number of children under the age of eight being cared for must not exceed six.

I replied to your other thread but 3.30 states "Exceptionally, and where the quality of care and safety and security of children is maintained, changes to the ratios may be made."

The letter from Nick Hudson confirms continuity of care is one of those times you can change ratios whilst staying within 6 under 8 ratio.

[Simona]

I really appreciate how much work and effort you are putting into this Simona. I personally felt reassured by yourself on a previous thread. I do have a continuity of care situation where it could be helpful to the parents if I went to 4 under 5's but at this present time I have risk assessed and thought about my abilities and decided against it. As you have said some CMs may handle 4 under 5's with ease but due to my experience level and the fact that 2 of my LO's are under 2 it's not right for me at the moment.

Thanks for that...absolutely your choice what you are ready to take on!
I received the DfE's reply on Friday around 6 pm...I was not around yesterday but looked at the chain of emails today and have highlighted the important bits

Tomorrow I will post a couple of useful extracts which I hope will be helpful to other Cms as they have been to me

[Simona]

These are extracts from several emails to the DfE

My query:
Following our discussion please can you look into the matter of the numbers Cms can look after in the EYFS.
We are allowed to increase our numbers with Risk Assessment, parents' awareness and consideration for all children's needs....as long as we do not care for more than 6 under 8.

The EYFS is not clear on this and there are conflicting messages on continuity of care and new business....the latter you seem not to have heard of but you are clear on continuity of care.

DfE's response quotes from paragraph 3.42 of the EYFS but adds the following:

However, this list is not exhaustive and the Department’s view on the issue of continuity of care and changing the ratio and/or the ages of the children being cared for is that the needs of all children must be met and their safety ensured.

Having said this, we are aware that some childminders would appreciate further clarity on the ratios and when changes to the ratios can be made (i.e. continuity of care).
We are therefore working with Ofsted and our strategic partner 4Children on the possibility of putting up answers to some of the most frequently asked questions (FAQs) on this topic based on advice from the Department.

My additional query:
If this is of any help would you be able to clarify this point as well?
As an example: a cm has 3 children under 5
One child leaves at 1pm
The cm receives a request from a new parent to start at 12pm...this means 1 hour overlap
The children are not related...would this be a reason to consider 'flexibility' in addition to the usual Risk Assessment, all children's needs taken account of etc etc?

This particular kind of request is often due to parents working flexible shift/hours but the confusion arises as cms refer to 'new business'.

Reply from DfE on 6 March 2015:
The EYFS Statutory Framework does not provide details of the circumstances in which exceptions to childminder ratios can be used within the overall 1:6 cap.
The EYFS states that any changes to the make-up of ratios (for whatever reason, whether it be to accommodate continuity of care needs or other business needs), must be decided by the childminder and the onus is on the childminder to demonstrate to parents/carers and Ofsted inspectors or their childminder agency, that the needs of all the children will continue to be met, within the context of the exceptional circumstance in question.


The EYFS has statutory status that is underpinned by relevant legislation that was last updated in September 2014. There are no current plans to undertake a full scale review of the EYFS but we will consider at the next opportunity whether any updates to the paragraphs that make reference to the childminder ratios are necessary

I hope this is of some help to you all.

[natlou82]

Thanks again Simona, so what I interpret these responses to mean is that CMs themselves decide what is an exceptional circumstance within their business, all risk assessments have to be done to ensure needs of all children are met and all parents need to be happy with this. As long as you stay within 6 under 8 it's fine. Do you draw the se conclusions?

[Rick]

These are extracts from several emails to the DfE

My query:
Following our discussion please can you look into the matter of the numbers Cms can look after in the EYFS.
We are allowed to increase our numbers with Risk Assessment, parents' awareness and consideration for all children's needs....as long as we do not care for more than 6 under 8.

The EYFS is not clear on this and there are conflicting messages on continuity of care and new business....the latter you seem not to have heard of but you are clear on continuity of care.

DfE's response quotes from paragraph 3.42 of the EYFS but adds the following:

However, this list is not exhaustive and the Department’s view on the issue of continuity of care and changing the ratio and/or the ages of the children being cared for is that the needs of all children must be met and their safety ensured.

Having said this, we are aware that some childminders would appreciate further clarity on the ratios and when changes to the ratios can be made (i.e. continuity of care).
We are therefore working with Ofsted and our strategic partner 4Children on the possibility of putting up answers to some of the most frequently asked questions (FAQs) on this topic based on advice from the Department.

My additional query:
If this is of any help would you be able to clarify this point as well?
As an example: a cm has 3 children under 5
One child leaves at 1pm
The cm receives a request from a new parent to start at 12pm...this means 1 hour overlap
The children are not related...would this be a reason to consider 'flexibility' in addition to the usual Risk Assessment, all children's needs taken account of etc etc?

This particular kind of request is often due to parents working flexible shift/hours but the confusion arises as cms refer to 'new business'.

Reply from DfE on 6 March 2015:
The EYFS Statutory Framework does not provide details of the circumstances in which exceptions to childminder ratios can be used within the overall 1:6 cap.
The EYFS states that any changes to the make-up of ratios (for whatever reason, whether it be to accommodate continuity of care needs or other business needs), must be decided by the childminder and the onus is on the childminder to demonstrate to parents/carers and Ofsted inspectors or their childminder agency, that the needs of all the children will continue to be met, within the context of the exceptional circumstance in question.


The EYFS has statutory status that is underpinned by relevant legislation that was last updated in September 2014. There are no current plans to undertake a full scale review of the EYFS but we will consider at the next opportunity whether any updates to the paragraphs that make reference to the childminder ratios are necessary

I hope this is of some help to you all.

Thanks for this. Thankfully, this information from DfE is comparable to the information I received and shared recently.

It does state that 'other business needs' must be decided by the childminder which is probably the most specific DfE are prepared to be. Although, in correspondence with myself they stated that "We do not envisage other situations outside of this (or for continuity of care or exceptional circumstances) where a childminder should take on new business that means s/he cannot meet the ratios." My question referred to 3 under 5 ratio rather than 6 under 8.

Others may feel differently but I personally would decide that exceeding 3 under 5's for new business (you know what I mean by that) is not viable in the current wording of the EYFS. It is neither continuity of care nor exceptional in my eyes. Exceeding 3 under 5 should be only done to prevent a detrimental effect on a child eg removing a settled child due to parent's change in hours. Taking on a new child taking you over 3 EY children does not eliminate a detrimental effect on a child and it may be seen by an inspector as trying to maximise income, whether or not you can prove you are still providing high levels of care and learning.

[Simona]

Thanks for this. Thankfully, this information from DfE is comparable to the information I received and shared recently.

It does state that 'other business needs' must be decided by the childminder which is probably the most specific DfE are prepared to be. Although, in correspondence with myself they stated that "We do not envisage other situations outside of this (or for continuity of care or exceptional circumstances) where a childminder should take on new business that means s/he cannot meet the ratios." My question referred to 3 under 5 ratio rather than 6 under 8.

Others may feel differently but I personally would decide that exceeding 3 under 5's for new business (you know what I mean by that) is not viable in the current wording of the EYFS. It is neither continuity of care nor exceptional in my eyes. Exceeding 3 under 5 should be only done to prevent a detrimental effect on a child eg removing a settled child due to parent's change in hours. Taking on a new child taking you over 3 EY children does not eliminate a detrimental effect on a child and it may be seen by an inspector as trying to maximise income, whether or not you can prove you are still providing high levels of care and learning.

I differ in opinion Rick and I still believe that any CM must make her decision based on her judgement.
I did not expect an endorsement but I will continue to listen and will continue to raise this matter for as long as it takes.
I have seen some replies and only once read 1:6 from Hudson but no reference to business or I would not have made new enquiries.
I found his reply to the cm rather snotty actually and disrespectful and would be happy to tell him to his face
I have checked the replies you received and I feel they are different...we are not competing just getting this matter sorted once and for all.

What the inspector sees on the day is what matters...if the cm gets it wrong an action would be given...if the cm gets downgraded a clear reason will be given too according to inspectors I have spoken to.

No 2 CMs will be the same when they consider their option and no one should advice them...it is their decision...we can support only
This unfortunately is a disadvantage for ICMs who do not have any support compared to an agency CM who gets plenty to arrive at her decision and is accountable to her agency not an inspector

I would challenge any inspector who considers 'maximising income' against the reason for changing the ratio....that would be a subjective opinion and not relevant when looking at evidence that the cm is meeting all children's needs

I believe many CMs bend over backwards to meet parents' requirements and because of this I have responded to the DfE on 'exceptional circumstances' as I want it clarified further....an hour of overlap is not...in my opinion....exceptional but a way to meet flexible working patterns and apply a flexible approach as is a cm starting work at 6 am to accommodate early shifts or finishing at 9 pm for the same reason.

I was clear before and I am even clearer now on this issue regardless of the EYFS wording....I would encourage any cm concerned about this to write in....in the thousands...that may get the message across for the DFE to act

Natiou82....I share your interpretaion of the business needs
Is it not strange the govt has made childcare a market but insists on keeping the basics of a business wrapped around dubious terminology?
It beggars belief considering our new childcare minister is an ex banker with Goldman I believe?

[Rick]

I differ in opinion Rick and I still believe that any CM must make her decision based on her judgement.
I did not expect an endorsement but I will continue to listen and will continue to raise this matter for as long as it takes.
I have seen some replies and only once read 1:6 from Hudson but no reference to business or I would not have made new enquiries.
I found his reply to the cm rather snotty actually and disrespectful and would be happy to tell him to his face

What the inspector sees on the day is what matters...if the cm gets it wrong an action would be given...if the cm gets downgraded a clear reason will be given too according to inspectors I have spoken to.

No 2 CMs will be the same when they consider their option and no one should advice them...it is their decision...we can support only
This unfortunately is a disadvantage for ICMs who do not have any support compared to an agency CM who gets plenty to arrive at her decision and is accountable to her agency not an inspector

I would challenge any inspector who considers 'maximising income' against the reason for changing the ratio....that would be a subjective opinion and not relevant when looking at evidence that the cm is meeting all children's needs

I believe many CMs bend over backwards to meet parents' requirements and because of this I have responded to the DfE on 'exceptional circumstances' as I want it clarified further....an hour of overlap is not...in my opinion....exceptional but a way to meet flexible working patterns and apply a flexible approach as is a cm starting work at 6 am to accommodate early shifts or finishing at 9 pm for the same reason.

I was clear before and I am even clearer now on this issue regardless of the EYFS wording....I would encourage any cm concerned about this to write in....in the thousands...that may get the message across for the DFE to act

Natiou82....I share your interpretaion of the business needs
Is it not strange the govt has made childcare a market but insists on keeping the basics of a business wrapped around dubious terminology?
It beggars belief considering our new childcare minister is an ex banker with Goldman I believe?

I definitely welcome further clarification on this. Sarah, I and Claire Brunner are seeking similar clarification from Nick Hudson.

The trouble with an hour overlap which exceeds your EY ratio is you don't have to take them on, the parents can find someone else. Once you start saying an hour is acceptable, then you open the floodgates. The only possible reason I can think of, and I'm not even certain of this, of exceeding EY ratio for new business is if you are the only person with a particular training for that child in the vicinity.

[Simona]

I definitely welcome further clarification on this. Sarah, I and Claire Brunner are seeking similar clarification from Nick Hudson.

The trouble with an hour overlap which exceeds your EY ratio is you don't have to take them on, the parents can find someone else. Once you start saying an hour is acceptable, then you open the floodgates. The only possible reason I can think of, and I'm not even certain of this, of exceeding EY ratio for new business is if you are the only person with a particular training for that child in the vicinity.

The ratio for CMs is 1:6 or 6 under 8
What particular floodgates would one open for an overlap? I would judge an overlap acceptable...even Truss believed CMs not being able to do so was senseless
You keep repeating the word 'exceeding' ....that applies only if you go over 6 children and would be a breach of the EYFS
I am lost on what particulat training for that child in the vicinity means?

Please go ahead with getting further clarification or similar ....but remember the DFE decides the ratio and Ofsted check
we are complying and CMs have achieved Good or Outstanding with 5 under 5 if you want to check further.

[Simona]

It appears that the Forum admin do not agree or accept the reply from the DfE....that is obviously something they need to sort out and approach whoever they believe will offer a better response.

Rick and I agree to disagree on this.

I wish them good luck in their approach to Hudson while I go for the DfE


I am sure this matter will be debated on your FB page...for that reason I have not printed the name of those who have replied to me from the DfE and Ofsted itself.
I am sure cms will understand the reason behind it.

Finally...the explanations given by the DfE are 'acceptable and clear' to me and I feel happier but not entirely satisfied!

I repeat what I have said before though....it is up to Every CM to decide...each cm is different...each inspection is different and what the inspector sees on the day is also of paramount importance regardless of the calibre of RA you may have done!

What I have done is post the feedback but I have not told any CM to increase their numbers or otherwise...that is not my role.

I am continuing dialogue with the DfE on this and have received further emails....I will not be happy until CMs get a proper reply

Thank you all for reading and keep informed!

[Caterpillarscm]

Hi, I have a quick question that I was hoping for some help and suggestions. I received my registration documents on Friday and have someone who is interested in childcare but not until November/December. I have two children under 5 of my own and I am trying to work out how the ratios will work. I understand that I can only have three children under 5 and I really need to start bringing in money now but would like to offer the propestive parent some sort of solution. Before I became a childminder, I looked for a childminder for one of my children and she said that if I started my Son for one day a week , by the time I went back to work she could apply for an additional child as continuity of care. Is this something that is possible? The parent enquiring would like 3 very short days a week. I understand that I would have to risk assess and ensure that Ofsted and the other parents are happy but would this be feasible for a new childminder? Or are there any other solutions that other could offer? Many thanks for your help.

[sarah707]

Hi, I have a quick question that I was hoping for some help and suggestions. I received my registration documents on Friday and have someone who is interested in childcare but not until November/December. I have two children under 5 of my own and I am trying to work out how the ratios will work. I understand that I can only have three children under 5 and I really need to start bringing in money now but would like to offer the propestive parent some sort of solution. Before I became a childminder, I looked for a childminder for one of my children and she said that if I started my Son for one day a week , by the time I went back to work she could apply for an additional child as continuity of care. Is this something that is possible? The parent enquiring would like 3 very short days a week. I understand that I would have to risk assess and ensure that Ofsted and the other parents are happy but would this be feasible for a new childminder? Or are there any other solutions that other could offer? Many thanks for your help.

There might be 'ways round' the ratios but Ofsted will see through them if you try and bend the rules.

You can only have 1 under 5 while your children are at home. Once your oldest is in full time school you can take another child under 5.

I hope that clarifies