Nursery or CMinders fault?

[Helen79]

I'm quite shocked that people think this isn't the nurseries fault. When we go to the local park, I risk assess and check around for broken glass because teenagers drink there on an evening. I would never think to go into a nursery and have to risk assess it myself unless we were staying for a playgroup, I certainly wouldn't expect to find panes of broken glass left lying around in a nursery play area
I agree that cm'ers need to take responsibility and make sure the children are safe but I'm assuming that the op was standing close to mindee watching her play in what she assumed should have been a safe area with no glass.

Our nursery is happy for children to play on the park equipment when they leave so I'm wouldn't have thought that the op was doing anything wrong by letting mindee play. All nurseries have their own rules though.

[nikki thomson]

Is it me?!!!!, who would leave broken glass lying around when they were made aware of it, it should of been cleared away straight away.
When my dd was at play school the lo I looked after use to play with the toys in the garden while we were waiting, I was watching her but if she'd gone behind a playhouse it isn't reasonable to know there was broken glass there, yes we have to risk assess but come on now let's have abit of common sense here. X

[jackie 7]

Duty of care. We all have responsibility to protect children. The nursery was aware of the glass and did nothing to prevent anyone from accessing the Wendy house. If it was in a public area I would be checking it but it was on private property. Talk to manager of nursery.

[CM59]

I can see both sides to this

It is fault with the cm has the child is in her care and as the teacher said she wasn't their when it happened so using her name is pointless??
But at same time school should of cleaned his up as soon as reported BUT you have stated the glass was on a table and the playhouse put infront of it?

The table is always behind the Wendy house, so there was nothing different at all. At the very least there should have been a notice put up to state about the glass. At the end of the day I cannot see through a plastic partition to notice glass. I only asked if I needed the name of the teacher to whom I needed to give the form too and had notified me of the schools position, nothing else!.

[kellib]

You can't risk assess every little thing every place you go, you'd do nothing else! Think some people are getting a bit carried away here!

It's a nursery, not a crack den, I'd expect a nursery to be child proof!

[Hatchlings]

I hope the childs cuts were not to deep & it didnt scare of playing there. I had a simular my own child was with me on a collection from school one day
( she was only 3 yrs & when she was at nursery just mornings anyway) When she tripped on a step near a class room were an experanment had just been done she landed on a peice of gazes from a bunson burner & it cut her arm anyway the school said it was her fault for not looking & mine for letting her trip they refused a accident form as well, I asked if i had done it would i have been able file 1 they said would depend on the injurys basically what i am saying is seems unless you are a student in school hours or staff working its your fault so sorry hun.

But i hope she is ok.

[CM59]

I hope the childs cuts were not to deep & it didnt scare of playing there. I had a simular my own child was with me on a collection from school one day
( she was only 3 yrs & when she was at nursery just mornings anyway) When she tripped on a step near a class room were an experanment had just been done she landed on a peice of gazes from a bunson burner & it cut her arm anyway the school said it was her fault for not looking & mine for letting her trip they refused a accident form as well, I asked if i had done it would i have been able file 1 they said would depend on the injurys basically what i am saying is seems unless you are a student in school hours or staff working its your fault so sorry hun.

But i hope she is ok.

Thank you H. Yes luckily the cuts weren't too deep. We are going to keep an eye on them and hopefully it will just be a plaster job.

[MiniKins]

The underlying duty of care lies with the nursery for several reasons:

The Occupiers' Liability Act requires:

'The occupier will owe a duty of care to these people if he is aware, or has reasonable grounds to know, of a danger on the premises and that a person may be in the vicinity of the danger and the risk is a real one against which he may reasonably be expected to offer some protection'.

Furthermore, there was no warning sign and the injured party was a child:

…occupiers must 'be prepared for children to be less careful than adults' ~ a warning notice, for example, would normally be good enough to alert adults to a potential danger, but not to alert children.

And (crazily at a nursery knowing there would in all probability be child visitors) the fact that it was near a wendy house which all reasonable persons would see as an enticement to the child (an 'allurement').

This responsibility even extends somewhat to trespassers on a premises.

The test would be to see if the nursery took 'such care as in all the circumstances of the case is reasonable to see that the visitor will be reasonably safe in using the premises for the purposes for which he is invited or permitted by the occupier to be there'. ~ from what I read I don't think they did.

So I would suggest the responsibilities of the childminder are (although extremely important) secondary.

[george]

I think I would write them a letter signed from both yourself & the childs parents saying something like:
Following the accident on your properly at approx time yesterday date, I (your name-role) cleaned up ....... cuts fortuntely with my first aid kit with me at that time whilst also immediately informing a member of your staff of the accident. I (name -rolę) are very disapointed that the staff member I spoke to did not show any care or concern for the injured child and was more defensive in speaking to myself in an unprofessional way to quickly make me aware this accident was infact my fault then any responsibility of the the nursery and stated they would not complete an accident form as they stated it was not the nurserys fault. I certainly was not interested at that time who was to blame as my main concern was for ..... and also ensuring your nursery where immediately aware of this accident so appropriate measures could be put in place to prevent anyone else been hurt. I was saddened to learn the nursery where aware broken glass was on the table out of view behind the wendy house and had not immediately cleaned this up or put a notice up informing people. Yes as a registered childminder it is my responsibilty to ensure i visually risk assess areas i and the children attend, i did this upon arrival & I so nothing out of place. I have never been made aware children cannot sit in the wendy house. Following reflection of this accident after completing my accident form and informing ..... Parents we are now consisering taking advice from both ofsted and my insurance company as we want to ensure my actions where the correct ones to take and have clarification on the role of your staff within such a situation. We are very saddended that your staff member seemed more concerned that this was what I was going to do then show any concern for .... Immediately following her accident and no first aid was offered to help her. However as I stated above we are more interested in ensuring the safety of all rather than looking for a claim so we would first appreciate a written response from yourselfs before we decide if we do need to obtain this further advice,
Sincerely yours

[Tazmin68]

I thing that letter is brill and covers all areas well done.

[winstonian]

I let my little charges play in a playhouse outside my daughters class. They are often 10 or 15 minutes late, I stand right by the house and make sure the shutters stay open so that I can see, they certainly do not run amok!
I'm afraid that I also feel the nursery are at fault in this and I think the staff member was rude! I like the above letter.

[FussyElmo]

Our school constantly tell us that the only children who should use the play equipment is the age appropriate schook children so no younger siblings etc. It gets ignored though.

Whose fault is it would it be wrong just to say it was an accident but if you want to point the finger then it was both the nursey and the cm. The nursery for leaving the glass for whatever reason. The childminder for not noticing the child was picking up glass. Again it was unfortunate that the cm thought the area would be safe.

I wouldn't be making an complaint I would be asking that in future they would make sure any warning signs would be put up.

[george]

Regardless of fault i think its more upsetting that a member of nursery staff responded in this way showing no concern for the child at all.
I def would send the letter i posted previously to make this clear and show i had done all i could under the circumstances i maybe would also add following evaluation of this accident i will ensure future children in my care will not access this playhouse. I would def still ring ofsted and my insurance company regardless of the nurserys response keeping a record of the date/time who i spoke to and what was said and make records of verbal responses from the nursery and also their written response. I would keeo all these records to.show i did everything i could during and after the accident to safeguard the child in my care, and other people incase a case is ever brought in the future

[FussyElmo]

Regardless of fault i think its more upsetting that a member of nursery staff responded in this way showing no concern for the child at all.
I def would send the letter i posted previously to make this clear and show i had done all i could under the circumstances i maybe would also add following evaluation of this accident i will ensure future children in my care will not access this playhouse. I would def still ring ofsted and my insurance company regardless of the nurserys response keeping a record of the date/time who i spoke to and what was said and make records of verbal responses from the nursery and also their written response. I would keeo all these records to.show i did everything i could during and after the accident to safeguard the child in my care, and other people incase a case is ever brought in the future

Thats the problem the cm stated the table was behind the wendy house and she couldnt see through plastic to see the glass. So not everything was done to safeguard the child in the care of the cm. The area was assumed to be safe it wasnt exactly checked.

I would not be making a complaint that I could end up coming out of looking bad regardless of how grotty the staffs attitude was

[MiniKins]

The underlying duty of care lies with the nursery for several reasons:

The Occupiers' Liability Act requires:

'The occupier will owe a duty of care to these people if he is aware, or has reasonable grounds to know, of a danger on the premises and that a person may be in the vicinity of the danger and the risk is a real one against which he may reasonably be expected to offer some protection'.

Furthermore, there was no warning sign and the injured party was a child:

…occupiers must 'be prepared for children to be less careful than adults' ~ a warning notice, for example, would normally be good enough to alert adults to a potential danger, but not to alert children.

And (crazily at a nursery knowing there would in all probability be child visitors) the fact that it was near a wendy house which all reasonable persons would see as an enticement to the child (an 'allurement').

This responsibility even extends somewhat to trespassers on a premises.

The test would be to see if the nursery took 'such care as in all the circumstances of the case is reasonable to see that the visitor will be reasonably safe in using the premises for the purposes for which he is invited or permitted by the occupier to be there'. ~ from what I read I don't think they did.

So I would suggest the responsibilities of the childminder are (although extremely important) secondary.

The point is the nursery (not the childminder) were aware of the specific danger and did not take the correct and appropriate steps to minimise it.

But, regardless of who is responsible, I'm sure the nursery owner (for his/her own protection) would thank you for bringing the matter (perhaps discreetly) to his/her attention.

If I were the nursery owner, for the future safety (and legal protection) of all concerned would definitely want call a meeting with my manager and other staff to review their responsibilities and discuss the correct action that should have been taken here ~ maybe they are lax in other areas too ~ or at the very least to question the behaviour of the member of staff you spoke to.

This is an example of a failed procedure.

How would we all feel if the accident had been far more serious?…or no action taken and a second child injured subsequently?

[ziggy]

I think the childminder is responsible for keeping the child safe BUT the nursery must be at fault here.

Surely they should have put up a sign or made adults aware of broken glass

[Ripeberry]

But the biggest thing in all of this is WHY leave broken glass lying around? Don't they know how to dispose of it? Were they more concerned about their staff being hurt than the children?

[Helen79]

if I did some diy at the weekend I left some broken glass in my front garden hidden behind the playhouse and a sibling of a mindee cut themselves while playing, even though I'd asked them not to because the toys are for the younger children and they weren't insured etc, then it would absolutely be my fault for not keeping the area safe for everyone who is on the property and I would expect ofsted to turn up any time after a complaint made about safeguard

[rickysmiths]

Thank you for your reply. There were no children running around. The little girl was on her own playing quietly opening the windows playing peep po. The fact remains that they had placed the house in front of the table with the glass on it and it was well hidden. I am not denying any responsibility at all, Im just stating that the nursery was aware of this and didn't clear it away or notify any of us. There are no signs to say that non school children shouldn't play on the toys etc either. she plays with this Wendy house frame every time we have to go there.

Just because they toys are not labelled that they should not be played with doesn't mean they shouldn't be. Nor does the fact that this child does it time make it right.

Lets put it a different way. A parent collects their child from me. The door my parents come to is at the side of the house and in the area where my sand table is and all my rockers and ride ons. She brings older sibling with her and said sibling starts to climb into the coupe car which she is too big for and the parent ignores the child and lets them carry on. As far as I am concerned that is wrong, the child should stay with the parent quietly while their sibling is being collected and while I pass on any information to the parent. If the older child hurts themselves then that is entirely down to the parent who should have RA for their own child who has not ever been in my care. If the parent doesn't then they are taking the risk, not me. It is not up to me to keep this child in check. However I do make it clear to all new parents what the score is with regard to any children they may bring with them at delivery or collection times and I manage it without loads of warning signs up as well.

[rickysmiths]

I try to consider the school run from the perspective of my mindees and look for opportunities to support and extend their learning. I feel if I made them stand by me, they are going to learn that the school run is very boring but not a lot else. Yes I let my mindees explore in the enclosed area, but that doesn't mean I am not watching them, they may pick up play equipment that is lying around, but once they have looked at it they are encouraged to put it back. They learn that they can explore, but have to do so within the boundaries I set (not going to far / not going by the windows to disrupt the children etc)

If the wendy house was in an area where it can be accessed by children, there should have at least been a sign up to warn parents or the area fenced off. I feel it is a pretty poor show for a nursery to only protect the children that are in their care at that time. I can just image parents responses if I left broken glass lying around in my front garden and turned round to them and said, sorry on the way in and out they are your responsiblity!
Cathy

I disagree. The school run does not have to be boring because you teach the children in your care not to play with things that it is not appropriate for them to play with. To my mind it is not appropriate to allow children in your care to play with school, Nursery or Pre School equipment while you are waiting to collect a child. What happened to having a conversation with them? Mine all stay by my side, the younger ones hold onto my hand or the buggy and or have reins on. They are taught not to play with things. There is a time and a place for everything and even young children have to learn boundries and there is no harm in that at all. I wish a few more were taught them!