Unemployed to be trained as Childminders by PACEY

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Many cms in my area seem unaware or unconcerned about all these possible changes, how can I arouse their interest and spur them into action? I need bunyip, sarah n or simona to come talk to them

You are in my area. NPF representation is close to you too.

What do you need help with? the changes are widely publicized but some people bury their heads and think it won't affect them.

There is a SW Forum in Bristol on 11th May, all this will be debated again I have no doubt so why not get these childminders to come along. I can send you the booking form if you pm me and there is some fun training too..

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Why childminders? They could as easily get them to work for old people in their own homes. Lots of parents have to give up work to look after elderly relatives. Get the unemployed helping the high proportion of older people in our society. Where will all this madness end?

Because there will be a demand with the 2 year old funding growing to its full extent Sept 15

[Simona]

Apart from the pilots going on now the first wave of 2 year olds, 130,000, come in September 2013
The next wave of 130,000 comes in Sept 2014 not 2015
This will explain the need to recruit more cms...as long as they are recruited where there is a need and not in areas there are enough cms

You can always find out more by looking at the consultancy company the DfE has employed to help LAs with placing 2 year olds...
the consultant is called James Hampsell and his company Dermott MacDonald (NWorld did a big article on them recently) I will go and make sure I got the company name correct
I heard him talk about his work at the Daycare Trust conference in Dec 2012 with Truss and the DfE

Chatterbox...once again your reply gives me the impression you as NPF know more than you are allowed to say??
I cannot believe ncma would have embarked on this initiative without the NPF approval?

[bunyip]

You are in my area. NPF representation is close to you too.

What do you need help with? the changes are widely publicized but some people bury their heads and think it won't affect them.

There is a SW Forum in Bristol on 11th May, all this will be debated again I have no doubt so why not get these childminders to come along. I can send you the booking form if you pm me and there is some fun training too..

I too have a regional forum invitation for May. I'm undecided as to whether I attend. I am deeply concerned that regional forum is becoming a Trojan horse for decisions made somewhere within pacey HQ. At forum we are, allegedly, "consulted". Then pacey does what pacey wants and assures us that we all had our say in it, whilst completely ignoring the concerns raised at forum.

I really don't know that I have a day to waste on making the executive feel good about themselves.

[Simona]

As committee member for the Greater London members were consulted and we told the NPF in no uncertain terms we did not want widening or rebranding...both went ahead despite overwhelming opposition

Can the NPF reps tell us why the democratic process of consultation was ignored and why the Vice chair told us 'whatever you think it will happen anyway'
It looks to me that the all structure in ncma needs to be addressed and the democratic process used
Why keep asking the reason the govt is not listening to us when ncma does exactly the same?
...still some of us continue to be loyal to ncma???

[watgem]

I would just like to say that I, m sure most have of us have nothing against the unemployed becoming cms, but its the way its been announced and carried out that is insulting, when for the last 2 or 3 years there has been no money for training, extra equipment or resources , or support that we might need or our minded children might benefit from, many of our do, s are or have been made redundant, cm groups closed down or reduced. In my area to become funded you have to go through so many hoops, I.ve done a nig one by getting my degree, but unable to jump through the others due to lack of funds and no funds from the la to be able to help me, many cms are trying to be funded but the process varies accordingbto where you live. Yet they have managed to find funds for this scenario, I just feel that it could have been handled better and perhaps better timing and financial and other support to existing cms may have been fairer and more courteous

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Gosh I have missed a lot whilst our shopping so I will address this in one post

1. As npf we take a topic to forums and report back. Information is acted on but as with any process it takes time. I assure you Simona I do not know more than I am saying but what I do know comes from listening to the tv/Internet. I know that the 2 year old funding is here because I am in a pilot area and I have close links to my la. Please also note that this is a Nick Clegg imitative and not Truss as you mentioned in our pm discussion.

2. Everyone's opinions are listened too but not every area says the same. On the matter on name change, how many people actually gave their views at forums, voted online and in paper form? How many read their who minds and auctioned anything they agreed or disagreed with?

3. Simona you say that your area was against the name change but again that was not the same in every area.

Rather than slam Pacey please be assured that not everything the board recommends the board gets. Just ask npf's how many weekends we went to Bromley in October/November last year?

I note how many people are contributing to this discussion and it is indicative of members being interested enough to participate.

A comment was made about the new plans. I do not know anymore than anyone else and am waiting eagerly for Pacey to announce their plans but I do not expect them to do it until everything is in place and finalised.

As to us being consulted on the new proposed scheme, why is it needed? It is another branch of funding and training and we are not consulted on running development officers as it isn't needed.

I am unsure why a development officer is imaking untrue and inappropriate comments but as you have brought it to the attention of management I see no need to being it to them again, unless you are still not satisfied and in which car you need to speak to your npf.

Lastly please can I ask that you do attend you regional meetings and let your voice be heard because if people demonstrate with their feet instead of constructive action then who will represent childminders at government level with effect?

Note all this is my option only and information acquired through various means

[AgentTink]

I am actually really offended by both Rickysmiths and Bunyips comments on this thread.

I am glad to know that my comments are seen as "bellyaching" and "being prejudiced" - i take great offense to both of these sweeping comments.

This whole issue is not about the fact that people on job seekers allowance may wish to become CM's, it is the fact that this government believes that our job is so easy and does not take dedication or a actual passion to be in it.

I am going to stop discussing this topic now with this forum as I am personally very upset by this proposal however feel that anything I say on this topic will be classed as me being a prejudiced/bellyaching.

[Simona]

I stand corrected as I obviously thought NPF had more power I gave them credit for

It maybe Clegg's initiative (I don't see that it matters whose idea it is but in truth it was started by the Labour party when in power) but hotly pursued by the DfE and the several emails in my inbox from them tell me they are keen for the scheme to work. I also questioned Truss herself and the DfE on the topic at the conference on 4th December as well as other meetings I had with them

I am not pleased with ncma...to put it mildly... so I am asking for answers alongside many others cms...why should we? because we are the paying members, that is not slamming to me it is accountability
I agree with the statement made below by watgem...all of a sudden all this money is found when we have struggled recently with less and less support

I am not clear on your statement on training and development officer and who is making what remarks...but no need to discuss here
As for attending meetings, being pro active, doing surveys etc etc...I think my actions and commitment to the cminding workforce speak louder than words

It may just be that ncma got this wrong judging by the discussions and concerns...no one is perfect, lets see how they address this matter...everyone's opinion and feelings here matter very much
I am happy to wait for the clarification next week...then I will act accordingly

[rickysmiths]

Many points in your reply Rickysmiths which highlight the variety on offer by LAs and the many unanswered questions we have

I have a Foundation Degree and an outstanding grade...have I registered interest in funding 2 year olds?
yes but I have to re join the network (and all paperwork involved which is nothing but duplication of what I evidence to Ofsted) and become Accredited (which I was when I left the network years ago) and do quality assurance which doubles what I have already

the rate for 2 year olds is £6.10 rather good... but drops to £3.50 (same rate as 6 years ago when I left the network) when the child is 3...so many cms have to think about sustainability

That may be in your area but we are paid a lot more than that for 3-4yr olds nearly £2ph more


Will I ever look after 2 year olds? ...not really because they are allocated to network cms at present but later on it may be different when 130,000 need a space and then another 130,000 in 2014
My LA also allow satisfactory cms to deliver the funding to 2 year olds...so have reshuffled the DfE criteria and basket of measures...if they want to ignore good/outstanding cms in favour of the satisfactory then let them get on with it

This again is not always the case, there are no Networks in my County, they were disbanded as expensive and selective. Yes our County has reduced the inspection requirement to Satisfactory but it has always been that for all other settings anyway so they have put cms on the same level. However we do have to have a min of a level 3 qualification. Our County had to do something because out of 1600 cm they only had 35 accredited ones last year.


In my view if ncma get involved in this training of unemployed mothers the LAs will lose out...my LA and many others have qualified and experienced consultants with a mixture of training on offer...new cms still need LA training in Safeguarding and LAs also have local knowledge of cms

Again it depends where you live and all our NCMA staff left over a year ago and the LA staff have been cut to the bone. In reality as a new cm to the County 9 years ago when the County was flush with Early Years people I never saw one of them never mind was offered any support as a new minder in the County. I had to find out everything for myself. Safeguarding Training will always be available because LAs have many staff who need it it may just cost more that is all. All our Training used to be free including First Aid but we have had to pay varying amounts for it for the last 4 years and First Aid is now £70 to £100.


Only one day nursery chain is now 'considering' whether to raise ratios after consulting with parents if the higher ratio is passed
Both Busybees and Kidsunlimited who backed Truss have now withdrawn
Preschools are not raising ratios hence their petition

I will wait and see I suspect all the Day Nurseries will raise their numbers and lower their staff once they are allowed because they will make more profits. This is the one thing we need to happen because then Childminders with lower numbers of children my become a more attractive choice for many parents even if it is a bit more expensive.


There is no one agency model...as we know from replies from the DfE many models are being developed and suggested by those sitting with the DfE...community and social enterprises as well as commercial ones (Truss' model) versus Sue Gregory (cms hubs in CCentres)

what ncma's initiative has in common is that they can recruit and train new cms to fulfil govt policy??...we will of course find out next week what it is all about...especially as they are doing it with Barnardo's and we can then decide if it is good or otherwise for cms

I must say if new cms are to be trained then I feel happier that someone like Pacey who have experience of childminding and how it works be involved. At least those who decide to do it and stick with it will start with a firm solid background and have good support and might stand a chance at doing a good job.


Read what the new associations can do even if they are not agencies and you will find the answer in the small print and some similarities
When these cms are up and running who will support them...ncma or the LA? will they be in an agency? employed or self employed?

Who knows anymore than any of us know what we will be doing.

I feel cms are not scared but frustrated at the drip drip of info and if the vast majority wish to remain independent, as it appears, we are being sidelined by all talk of agencies

I know that other cms will have their own system in place with their LA...and that is where all this has started from...lack of a standardised system to equally support all cms across England instead of a two tier of cms (network and non network)
now we can look forward to agency cms and unemployed mothers joining in as well as Ofsted registered independent cms and those non Ofsted registered independent and, last but not least, employed cms and self employed cms

I find this frankly and offensive statement. I was an unemployed mum when I registered as a childminder solely as a way to stay at home with my own children and to earn enough to pay for one holiday in Cornwall every year and to buy all the Birthday and Christmas Presents. I had no experience in Childcare other than having my own children and I certainly had no Childcare qualifications. Frankly so what if they have the get up and go to become a Childminder and they can make the grade good luck to them. They will be starting better qualified and supported than I ever was and I reckon I haven't done badly in 20 years.


So I would not apply 'scared' to our feelings at the moment but rather utter confusion until all is clarified...the waiting game will be over soon.

I think it will be a long time before we find out all the detail of what is planned for us.

The thing about Pacey training new childminders is a tiny thing. In fact I know several new childminders who are doing their CYPOP5 and First Aid and Child Protection Training with them now so why is this plan so different? It is just that the Government are releasing funds to pay for it? So what my Level 3 Diploma Children and Young People's Workforce was funded to the tune of £1500 by the Government just last year along with 13 other cm in our County.

[rickysmiths]

I have to say this thread leaves me feeling quite cold and very saddened by the trends going on at pacey and by the attitude of some of my fellow-CMs. (I'll address the pacey issue later.)

Their seems to be a rather unpleasant streak of prejudice here, suggesting that "The Unemployed" are somehow not fit to become CMs. I fully understand regime tactics in wanting a lot more childcarers in order to relieve the unemployment statistics and meet their targets for 2yo provision. But that does not give us the right to make slurs against a whole swathe of individuals with very real and varied talents. However much they are statistically doctored, unemployment figures remain a measurement of the failure of capitalist regimes; they are not a measure of the moral fibre of its individual victims.

Am I to take it that any current CM who took up CMing to get out of the dole queue is, therefore, not fit to do the job? I suspect many of us went into CMing to fit around our home/family circumstances, rather than as the end goal in a lengthy career path. And what of those people who progress from their school studies with the single intention of pursuing childcare as a career: well lo and behold, aren't they just the very people who are repeatedly sneered at by CMs as "teenage nursery staff"? Shame on us.

So is it true or false that "anyone can become a CM" ? Well, no - not strictly true. We have a system of regulation that decides: suitable people, suitable premises, minimum standards, requirements, training. We are all subject to these regulations - and so is anyone else who wants to gain registration. In fact: anyone entering CMing today may well have to achieve more than some of our longer-established colleagues. Or perhaps we should demand the government 'raises the bar' when it comes to regulation? But then how many existing CMs might fail to make the grade? Let's face it, the basic entry level training requirements are currently pretty minimal.

So are we to say we are somehow better than these people who are currently having their potential wasted by the plague of unemployment? Despite what you're reading in the Sun and the Daily Mail, most of these people want to find work. (if anything, it's the profit-hungry businesses and so-called "wealth-creators" that actually need a pool of unemployed in order to suppress demands for decent wages.)

Do so many CMs really see "The Unemployed" as some undeserving underclass of sub-humans or are they just not middle-class enough to look after children - even if they can prove themselves by meeting the very same regulatory standards that many of us have achieved. And before we sneer at people who are "living on benefits", we might actually take a look at ourselves. Up to 90% of the UK working population are living on some form of benefit or government support. A lot of CMs rely on Tax Credits, never mind the number of us who would lose vital clients if they had no TCs or childcare vouchers to help with our fees - our income.

Shame on us.

Well said. Indeed as I have said in another reply. I was a mum of two and found myself unemployed. My SIL became a cm to stay at home with her two and I thought 'what a good idea' on top of being asked by a friend if I could look after her daughter. So I registered as a cm. Unemployed, no childcare qualifications, (though professional qualifications at a much higher level than the present Level ). I did complete the Level 3 last year though so I could offer the 3-4 year funded places to my parents. I also don't like all this angst towards the unemployed,

it is frankly nasty and not what I would have expected from so called 'professional ' and all excepting childminders. I am ashamed that fellow cms can be so judgmental.

[rickysmiths]

I hear what you are saying Bunyip about people's perception of "the unemployed" but I feel that if these unemployed women who attend Children's Centres wanted to be childminders, why haven't they done it before - is it because of start up costs and spending money that they don't have on medical checks, first aid courses, childminding courses, equipment etc - if so why can't the government go back to giving a grant as they used to 8 years ago, when I re-registered - £300 paid for all of the above, plus a years membership to NCMA & stationery - but I re-registered because I wanted to do it, when I self reflected I realised that it was the only job I had done that gave me job satisfaction - you could say I had a calling to return.

Will forcing people into childminding give us the high standards we are all striving to achieve - I agree that a great many unemployed people are educated and find themselves unemployed because of the recession, but you have to "want" to do it to do it not be made to.

I know Truss has got her childcare ideas from Europe which we don't all agree with, but I think it is time that the Employment Ministers looked to Europe in particular Denmark (my uncle lives there) - my uncle had to give up work due to disability (caused by the repetitive nature of his work), however after just 6 months on disability benefit he was found work in an Old People's Care Home (which are fantastic places - not like our "waiting to die" institutions!) as a handyman/gardener - he worked 20 hours a week but was paid a full time wage.

In Denmark the churchyards are immaculate, the streets clean, State Care homes (not private BUPA ones) like top hotels with restaurants so good that they open to non-residents, they have libraries and gyms etc. People shouldn't be paid benefits to sit at home and do nothing, they should be paid volunteers making a difference to the community. This wouldn't take jobs away from people because no-one does these jobs, these people would need childcare and we all would be happy.

Anyway - that's me sorted out unemployment and childcare for the morning - better get off my soapbox before someone shoots me down.

Has anyone said people will be forced to become childminders?

[Simona]

Thank you for highlighting the differences between LAs which I was already aware of...152 each with its own set of rules, what I am in favour of is 'standardised' service to serve cms equally and inclusively

I am glad you are paid more for your FE...that shows the madness of leaving the LAs to do the funding formula which the DfE is now going to put a stop to...I don't think that is fair and it is the very reason may cms have stayed out of networks

The statement about 'unemployed' mother was not meant to be offensive. I have stated clearly I have nothing against mothers returning to work as long as they want to, can choose which job to do and use their skills and not forced into childcare or being cms.....
I was trying to highlight the various tiers of cms that we could become in addition to what is already available

Nursery/preschools already have the power to increase their ratio 1:13 if a graduate is available...even the DfE in its consultation is asking why they do not do it now????

ncma offers no more challenging training than LAs do, I agree they know their stuff so do LAs but e-training is not my cup of tea and that is why I attend self funded challenging sessions which I enjoy....total cost last year= well over £1000 and greatly beneficial
My degree too was funded by the govt...more precisely the Graduate Leader Fund

I know what the new initiative is about ...or at least I think I have a good idea and let me assure you I am well aware of what the future holds for cms...I am ready for the challenge ...are you??

Lets also be clear about one thing: things stated in a forum can be misinterpreted and misjudged... I am more than sure no one here is trying to offend anyone or be unprofessional...I also believe you said we were 'belly aching'?
Let me assure you again the last thing that hurts at the moment is my 'belly'!

[rickysmiths]

Thanks for that thought Bunyip

I think that this requires clarification
I am not against unemployed mothers finding jobs or becoming cms

I am against the way this is being done now obviously in line with govt policy to get women back to work and off benefits?
what of those mothers who wish to stay at home and raise their children? will they be forced to enter a profession they could have done so independently by themselves by approaching their LA and start the registration process?

Unemployed mothers have been attending CCentres for years...why have they not been encouraged to find jobs or become cms before?
In some areas there is a huge need to have more cms because there are not enough providers
In some LAs the number of 2 year olds requiring childcare from 2013 and from 2014 is very large and those LAs will not be able to place all these children so there the need for new cms is totally justified...where I worried is in the areas where there are too many cms and not enough children to care for

The question is then why all of a sudden is this initiative coming out and funded by the govt when we are constantly told there is no money...where is this £120 m coming from??

Most CCentres have some link to their LA...why have the LAs not encouraged these unemployed mothers into finding a job before and recruited them to become cms?
In my LA cms actually work in CC while parents go to training sessions...they are called Stay and Play Plus cms, earn good money and are constantly being recruited by our childminding association

ncma is working on this project with Barnados'...this is a renowned charity that works for poor children and families...so it is obvious who is being targeted and no one is against these families finding jobs
ncma is also working with NCB to use EYPs to engage with 'disadvantaged families' to improve the HLE (much mentioned by Truss when she refers to the EPPE project in her speeches) by using Early Years Professionals into supporting these families

So I doubt many are against women finding jobs and using their skills as you describe ...it is the way it has come out and if ncma feel this is a good scheme why keep it quiet and not explain the benefit that will result from this initiative... at first the reaction is that it will disadvantage our businesses

Once again I feel many have ignored the small print recently...it has been obvious this was happening, what we did not know is that ncma is involved

Do you know if this has been extended to other professions? I know about this one because I am a member of pacey.

[Simona]

So am I a member of ncma and eagerly awaiting their clarification...has it been extended to other professions? ask ncma, many of us have!

[SammySplodger]

ncma offers no more challenging training than LAs do, I agree they know their stuff so do LAs but e-training is not my cup of tea

I have concerns about e-training - especially for first aid - I don't actually see how you can do it properly 'virtually'. In 2008/9 I did all face-to-face training. On re-registering, most has been e-training and I have to admit I have really struggled with it. I know I'm not the only one - my CYPOP5 course assessor told me there were lots of people taking many months to complete it.

[rickysmiths]

Thank you for highlighting the differences between LAs which I was already aware of...152 each with its own set of rules, what I am in favour of is 'standardised' service to serve cms equally and inclusively

I am glad you are paid more for your FE...that shows the madness of leaving the LAs to do the funding formula which the DfE is now going to put a stop to...I don't think that is fair and it is the very reason may cms have stayed out of networks

You are assuming that all childminders ahd the choice to join one in the first place and that was most definitely not the case in our County. There were very few very exclusive ones and that is why they were eventually stopped.

The statement about 'unemployed' mother was not meant to be offensive. I have stated clearly I have nothing against mothers returning to work as long as they want to, can choose which job to do and use their skills and not forced into childcare or being cms.....
I was trying to highlight the various tiers of cms that we could become in addition to what is already available

But who has said these women will be forced to be childminders? This I would think will be scheme for those who want to take it.

Nursery/preschools already have the power to increase their ratio 1:13 if a graduate is available...even the DfE in its consultation is asking why they do not do it now????

I must confess that I did not know this but maybe there are not enough Graduates in Nurseries or maybe the Nursery chains would not pay them enough?


ncma offers no more challenging training than LAs do, I agree they know their stuff so do LAs but e-training is not my cup of tea and that is why I attend self funded challenging sessions which I enjoy....total cost last year= well over £1000 and greatly beneficial
My degree too was funded by the govt...more precisely the Graduate Leader Fund

Here you go again. You assume that all LA's offer the training and some like ours do not any longer that is why they are recommending the courses offered by pacey.

I know what the new initiative is about ...or at least I think I have a good idea and let me assure you I am well aware of what the future holds for cms...I am ready for the challenge ...are you??

Well you must be one of the few, because I don't see how any of us can be fully aware of what is in store for us yet. We can hazard intelligent guesses but no one knows for sure.

Lets also be clear about one thing: things stated in a forum can be misinterpreted and misjudged... I am more than sure no one here is trying to offend anyone or be unprofessional...I also believe you said we were 'belly aching'?
Let me assure you again the last thing that hurts at the moment is my 'belly'!

I think there are issues to address but I don't think I see any thing threatening about the thought of pacey training new childminders or that the new childminders may be unemployed or that they may be getting government funding to become cms. There have been many rafts of funding over the years and some of us have been able to take advantage of them and some not. Remember all the Capital Funding a few years ago? Some cms got thousands to make improvements on their settings some of us got zero. Thats life. I think if this gives a few people a chance to improve their lot, good luck to them.

[rickysmiths]

So am I a member of ncma and eagerly awaiting their clarification...has it been extended to other professions? ask ncma, many of us have!

Sorry who are ncma?

[rickysmiths]

I have concerns about e-training - especially for first aid - I don't actually see how you can do it properly 'virtually'. In 2008/9 I did all face-to-face training. On re-registering, most has been e-training and I have to admit I have really struggled with it. I know I'm not the only one - my CYPOP5 course assessor told me there were lots of people taking many months to complete it.

If people are struggling to complete the courses then maybe that is a signal that cm is not for them.

I must confess I did CYPOP 5 as part of my Diploma last year. It took me approx 8 hours as a cm who is already working and has all their paperwork in place, I was working 50 hours a week at the time and had two children at home. I might add I do not find working on a computer that easy either.

I think they say it can take up to 6 months to complete CYPOP 5 which sounds fair to me for someone just starting out who has no working knowledge of cm.

I hate the idea that training is done online, I think meeting with other like minded people and a teacher is an unbeatable way to learn. This is why I chose to do my Diploma by attending a full Saturday Study Day once a month. However I see with my children that more and more of their academic work is done and submitted online and that is at school, doing an adult access course and at University. It is what many people are growing up with and accept as normal.

[Simona]

CPD is lots of things and training one of them...what I mean is challenging sessions, other then the more or less standard training on offer by LAs, such as conferences, seminars, workshops etc etc...training varies but not the kind I am referring to ...so not assuming anything

I believe there are 10,000 EYPs not enough for all settings but those who have one have opted for the lower ratio...I doubt legislation will change their minds
I know the situation with networks so I am not assuming anything...again 152 variations according to LAs 'themes'!!

get yourself a meeting with Truss and then you will be as clear as I am of her intentions

ncma is the association I fought to retain and until I can I will refer to it by that name