Another Ratio's Question!!!

[JMcG]

After a long and frustrating phone call with Ofsted today I am still unsure of whether I can vary my numbers.

I currently have:

19 month old (full time) - my own daughter
12 month (full time)
3, nearly 4 year old - usually attends 1 afternoon, 12 - 6pm a week, I collect him from pre-school. Sometimes he might come 2 afternoons, but hardly ever!

Ok so the issue I have is this, the family of the 3 year old need random days each week as both do shift work by rota. I was supposed to get these days a month in advance, but in reality I only get them on a Sunday late evening for the following week as this is when one of the parents gets his rota now. A little frustrating as no chance of filling the gaps with ad-hoc care.

I have now been asked to take on 12month old full time in Jan. I need to dot his for income/business reasons. So I need to decide. Do I terminate the contract with the 3 year old which would be awful as love having him and think parents might struggle finding someone with the random hours. Or do I self-vary my numbers with the following reasoning.

- He is already settled here
- I have completed a risk assessment and I'm sure I could manage
- He is very calm, sensible and mature for his age
- all the parents are ok with it
- he is going to school from Sept 2013

It would be easier to let him go .... but I'm not sure it would be in his best interests as he is very settled here and certainly the family wouldn't want this.

Ofsted simply said I had to decide for myself! Helpful. If I do it anyway, would would happen if I was inspected and they deemed it wrong. Do I get a warning, insatisfactory grading or lose my reg?! Anyone know. Somehow dont feel its worth the gamble!

[loocyloo]

tricky one, i don't know!

you've given all the reasons why you can do it, and although it is for new business, only for one, or maybe 2 afternoons a week you would be over your ratio. and it would only be until september, as older child will then start school and be classed in your 5-8 ratio.

could the new fulltimer come part time/ad hoc for december? and then move to fulltime in jan?

good luck x

[jillplum]

can you get together with another childminder for the short time you are over your numbers. I do that with my sister who is also a childminder.

[bunyip]

After a long and frustrating phone call with Ofsted today I am still unsure of whether I can vary my numbers.

I currently have:

19 month old (full time) - my own daughter
12 month (full time)
3, nearly 4 year old - usually attends 1 afternoon, 12 - 6pm a week, I collect him from pre-school. Sometimes he might come 2 afternoons, but hardly ever!

Ok so the issue I have is this, the family of the 3 year old need random days each week as both do shift work by rota. I was supposed to get these days a month in advance, but in reality I only get them on a Sunday late evening for the following week as this is when one of the parents gets his rota now. A little frustrating as no chance of filling the gaps with ad-hoc care.

I have now been asked to take on 12month old full time in Jan. I need to dot his for income/business reasons. So I need to decide. Do I terminate the contract with the 3 year old which would be awful as love having him and think parents might struggle finding someone with the random hours. Or do I self-vary my numbers with the following reasoning.

- He is already settled here
- I have completed a risk assessment and I'm sure I could manage
- He is very calm, sensible and mature for his age
- all the parents are ok with it
- he is going to school from Sept 2013

It would be easier to let him go .... but I'm not sure it would be in his best interests as he is very settled here and certainly the family wouldn't want this.

Ofsted simply said I had to decide for myself! Helpful. If I do it anyway, would would happen if I was inspected and they deemed it wrong. Do I get a warning, insatisfactory grading or lose my reg?! Anyone know. Somehow dont feel its worth the gamble!

Personally, I'd be very cautious, especially if it's for anything but a very short space of time. We've yet to see how inspectors are interpreting the regs, or what sanctions they'll impose if unhappy. I can only speculate that they'd downgrade the grading and issue an action to get the numbers back to 'normal', but that is purely my speculation.

I think it may count against you that you're doing it for what they'd define as "new business".The examples in their guidance document seem to demand a "continuity of care"; plus some other need to justify calling it "exceptional circumstances"; plus an understanding that it's only for a very short period of time.

I hope you won't be offended, but I'm going to pick your argument apart, but only in an attempt to help you. Whilst you've made a very good case for keeping the settled 3yo, Ofsted aren't interested in that, and will say that isn't the issue. You need to make a case which will justify starting the new 12mo and why there are "exceptional circumstances" to do so.

Hope this helps in some way.

[Mouse]

I hope you won't be offended, but I'm going to pick your argument apart, but only in an attempt to help you. Whilst you've made a very good case for keeping the settled 3yo, Ofsted aren't interested in that, and will say that isn't the issue. You need to make a case which will justify starting the new 12mo and why there are "exceptional circumstances" to do so.

Hope this helps in some way.

I have heard this mentioned a few times lately. CMs seem to be justifying continuity of care for an existing child, not considering the variation is actually for the new child.
At our group yesterday one minder was talking about a new child she is taking on. She already has 2 full time children & 1 part timer. She is taking on a new full timer & granting herself an exception for the existing part-timer, citing continuity of care. She was adamant she could do it and by the end of the meeting, most of the other cms could see the 'logic' in it

I've decided to keep my nose out of their business now. I've explained what I think, they don't listen, so I'll leave them to it

Going back to the OP's question, I don't think you can grant yourself an exception as you are applying it to take on new business.

[FussyElmo]

I have heard this mentioned a few times lately. CMs seem to be justifying continuity of care for an existing child, not considering the variation is actually for the new child.
At our group yesterday one minder was talking about a new child she is taking on. She already has 2 full time children & 1 part timer. She is taking on a new full timer & granting herself an exception for the existing part-timer, citing continuity of care. She was adamant she could do it and by the end of the meeting, most of the other cms could see the 'logic' in it

I've decided to keep my nose out of their business now. I've explained what I think, they don't listen, so I'll leave them to it

Going back to the OP's question, I don't think you can grant yourself an exception as you are applying it to take on new business.

was just about to say you are justifying your variation for an existing child not your new child..........

[JCrakers]

I find these self variations more trouble than they are worth. I would say this is a valid reason for a variation. You have thought it through. I would rather have a full timer than someone who swaps and changes especially if the wages I earn pay the bills.

Personally I would do this because its in the interest of the child....

A. If you are having to give notice to the other family it would be better for the child to stay with you
B. it saves the child from having to settle into another childminder for a matter of months before he starts school

This is one of those times where everyone will have differences of opinions because the new eyfs doesn't give any help at all. There is no helpline. There are no examples to follow and if there were examples then everyone's situation would be slightly different.
I had a different situation, ofsted were not interested, my DO just said read the paperwork, most people on here said they wouldn't do it. In the end I emailed someone for help and advice and they said they personally would.

If you were taking a new child on for the sake of the money only then that wouldn't be a valid reason but as you have thought about the child having to go somewhere else then in the interest of the child then I would keep him on. But this is me personally so it would be on my head. I would document showing everything including how unsettled the child would be if moved.

[Rubybubbles]

Agree with bunyip

No! You can not start a new child and offer COC to current child as the.the new child would be erm NEW!!

Maybe get hold of your delevlopment officer for advise, at least that way you can fall back on them!!

[Mouse]

I find these self variations more trouble than they are worth. I would say this is a valid reason for a variation. You have thought it through. I would rather have a full timer than someone who swaps and changes especially if the wages I earn pay the bills.

Personally I would do this because its in the interest of the child....

A. If you are having to give notice to the other family it would be better for the child to stay with you
B. it saves the child from having to settle into another childminder for a matter of months before he starts school

This is one of those times where everyone will have differences of opinions because the new eyfs doesn't give any help at all. There is no helpline. There are no examples to follow and if there were examples then everyone's situation would be slightly different.
I had a different situation, ofsted were not interested, my DO just said read the paperwork, most people on here said they wouldn't do it. In the end I emailed someone for help and advice and they said they personally would.

If you were taking a new child on for the sake of the money only then that wouldn't be a valid reason but as you have thought about the child having to go somewhere else then in the interest of the child then I would keep him on. But this is me personally so it would be on my head. I would document showing everything including how unsettled the child would be if moved.

I find an easy way of looking at it is:

Do I have the space to take on this new child?

Answer YES - great, sign them up!

Answer NO - is this new child coming to me for continuity of care, or because of a sibling already being in my care?

Answer YES - OK to grant an exception if all other conditions are met

Answer NO - then you can't take on the new child. You don't have space for them and they are not coming to you for continuity of care, or because of a sibling.

But I agree with you completely. The help & guidance is rubbish and it is up to each childminder to make their own decision based on their understanding of the rules.

[JCrakers]

But...look at it this way

I need to pay the bills, my mortgage is very important. So I have been asked to have a child full time. This will help me immensely financially. I already have little money for extras like Xmas etc.

I would take on a full timer over someone who comes once a week so I would have to say to the 3yr old (as mean as it sounds) I don't have the space anymore for the swapping and changing days contract. It may seem horrible but my business head is on when my mortgage comes into the equation.

So i would have to give notice and the parents would now have to find someone else for their 3yr old from January until school starts. This 3yr old knows me, is settled here and he feels safe and secure. Now I'm going to rip him from my setting and he's going to have to settle somewhere else. This is where the variations come apart because nowhere in the eyfs does it mention this. This is the flaw.

These are the reasons I would give if my inspector asked me. If they can't see this then they don't have any interest of the child at all and it's all about the bleedin paperwork.

But I'm not telling anyone to do this...this is my choice I would probably end the contract with the 3yr old, take on the new child and offer the existing family a new contract. Wrong as it sounds, I wouldn't be keeping the 3yr old on for money reasons I would be keeping him on for his security and well being.

[Mouse]

But...look at it this way

I need to pay the bills, my mortgage is very important. So I have been asked to have a child full time. This will help me immensely financially. I already have little money for extras like Xmas etc.

I would take on a full timer over someone who comes once a week so I would have to say to the 3yr old (as mean as it sounds) I don't have the space anymore for the swapping and changing days contract. It may seem horrible but my business head is on when my mortgage comes into the equation.

So i would have to give notice and the parents would now have to find someone else for their 3yr old from January until school starts. This 3yr old knows me, is settled here and he feels safe and secure. Now I'm going to rip him from my setting and he's going to have to settle somewhere else. This is where the variations come apart because nowhere in the eyfs does it mention this. This is the flaw.

These are the reasons I would give if my inspector asked me. If they can't see this then they don't have any interest of the child at all and it's all about the bleedin paperwork.

But I'm not telling anyone to do this...this is my choice I would probably end the contract with the 3yr old, take on the new child and offer the existing family a new contract. Wrong as it sounds, I wouldn't be keeping the 3yr old on for money reasons I would be keeping him on for his security and well being.

But that decision has nothing to do with Ofsted. They are not saying you would have to give notice to this child. They would be saying you do not have the space to take on a new child. I'm afraid it would see it as your bad planning on taking on a child you couldn't afford to keep, not Ofsted's fault for enforcing the regulations in the Statutory Framework.
If a full time child was needed for financial reasons, parents of the part timer should have been told that they may be given notice at some point in the future if one came along.

If you think what the old variation request forms were like, they asked who was the new child you wanted to take on and why. I don't think "because I want the extra money" would swing it

[FussyElmo]

The problem is the unknown - we dont know what sanctions will be taken against cms for granting a variation that ofsted deem wrong.

IF there is an accident and ofsted deem you granted your variation for profit (a harsh way of looking at it) are you then covered by your insurance. Yes this is the worse case scenario. If not are you possibly setting yourself to be sued by your parents. Alot of us will remember the cm who ended up not being covered when she let the child use the trampoline

Only you can make the decision

[bunyip]

Agree with bunyip

No! You can not start a new child and offer COC to current child as the.the new child would be erm NEW!!

Maybe get hold of your delevlopment officer for advise, at least that way you can fall back on them!!

...unless the DO is one of the ones who is giving out duff information. Some of them are more confused than anyone.

OP and JC: you cannot build the case for 'continuity of care' and 'exceptional circumstances' around the existing 3yo. Put simply, the 3 yo will receive continuity of care by you not taking on the new business. It would be the fact of taking on the new 12mo that would create the need to drop the 3yo, thereby jeapardising the continuity of care.

[jillplum]

The way I look at is to ask myself would ofsted have agreed to this variation under the old system? Yes then fine I can give myself a variation. No then no I can't do it.

[JMcG]

Thanks for all the feedback ladies. I do feel that this new way of childminders deciding for themselves is going to be open to so many issues. So anyway I've made a decision!

When taking on said 3 year old I had only just registered. This is why being a newby I was not sure at that point if I could manage 3 full timers and so was happy to agree to the random days contract. Rookie error! Anyway a year on I am more confident and ready to take on more.

So here goes I've decided that I will keep the 3 year old and also take on the new full time baby. I will be able to do this because the days that I have the 3 year old I will be taking my own daughter to another childminder or a friend to be looked after. This means I can do what I need to business wise (we're saving for a bigger house and I need to look at the bigger picture) and I also don't have to give notice on the 3 year old which I would have just felt so bad about. I know it's silly as I'm running a business and they have quite drastically changed their terms but to have to say I couldn't have him anymore because of me needing to earn more money would have been really really hard.

I think I'm happy with my decision, let's hope it works out!!!

[miffy]

It really is such a grey area. I can see all the arguments that you don't have space for the new child so shouldn't take it on BUT if you did start the child on the days you had space and then when the child had been with you a few weeks apply a variation for the other days that would be considered continuity of care because the child is already with you.

What hasn't been tested yet is Ofsted's response if we get it wrong or they disagree with our decision and, wher does that leave us insurance wise if something goes wrong (like a serious accident) and Ofsted then say we were in breach of our registration, ie uninsured too?

Miffy xx

[christine e]

Thanks for all the feedback ladies. I do feel that this new way of childminders deciding for themselves is going to be open to so many issues. So anyway I've made a decision!

When taking on said 3 year old I had only just registered. This is why being a newby I was not sure at that point if I could manage 3 full timers and so was happy to agree to the random days contract. Rookie error! Anyway a year on I am more confident and ready to take on more.

So here goes I've decided that I will keep the 3 year old and also take on the new full time baby. I will be able to do this because the days that I have the 3 year old I will be taking my own daughter to another childminder or a friend to be looked after. This means I can do what I need to business wise (we're saving for a bigger house and I need to look at the bigger picture) and I also don't have to give notice on the 3 year old which I would have just felt so bad about. I know it's silly as I'm running a business and they have quite drastically changed their terms but to have to say I couldn't have him anymore because of me needing to earn more money would have been really really hard.

I think I'm happy with my decision, let's hope it works out!!!

Sorry to have to say this but I don't think you can get round it that way your own children have to be included in your numbers whether they are with you or not

[Mouse]

Sorry to have to say this but I don't think you can get round it that way your own children have to be included in your numbers whether they are with you or not

With the new EYFS there is something about if you can guarantee your own children won't be present, then you can use their space for another child.

Yet another grey area though.

[mama2three]

With the new EYFS there is something about if you can guarantee your own children won't be present, then you can use their space for another child.

Yet another grey area though.

I know I read this when I first went through the new eyfs , but having looked again cant find it! Do you know where its stated?

[Bear23]

With the new EYFS there is something about if you can guarantee your own children won't be present, then you can use their space for another child.

Yet another grey area though.

really? i didn't know that x