What happens uf a child doesnt attend all 15hrs funding claimed for?

**MrsP2C** · 29-02-2016, 08:01 PM

Further to my previous message, I've been advised that if a child doesn't claim eyfs funding at any other setting, I can claim for the full allowance & as long as she's doing 15hrs during headcount week it doesn't matter if she doesn't attend the full 15 hours each week.

Mum is pregnant and when baby comes in May wants flexibility over times for drop-off & collection on the 2 days child attends. I'm fine with this as long as it fits around school/other pick-ups but some days mindee may only come 4 or 5 hours so well under the full 15 hrs I've claimed. I've been told this is fine & no need to notify anyone or refund but it seems odd that I can be paid for a child I'm not caring for.
Anyone heard of this?

**Mouse** · 29-02-2016, 08:17 PM

Is it your LA who have told you it's OK to do that? They all work differently, but with our LA we have to track attendance over those 15 hours and try to minimise the hours that are funded but not used. At headcount we could claim the full 15 hours if they were contracted for that long, but if the child regularly attended less than that we would have to inform the LA who may claim the money back. It would be picked up anyway when we were audited. Quite whether they would actually claim it back or not, I don't know

Will the child be contracted for 15 hours and do you expect them to use that many hours at least some of the time? If you know for definite they will rarely be with you for 15 hours and if they're contracted for less than that then I don't think you'd be able to claim it, but if they are contracted for the full 15 hours and usually attend that long then I wouldn't see a problem with it.

**bunyip** · 29-02-2016, 08:42 PM

I'm thinking along the same lines as Mouse. Whenever I hear/read "I've been told", my immediate response is "who told you and do they have any authority in the matter?"

Remember the funding is public money being paid out by a local authority that is almost certainly watching where every single penny goes. The four local authorities round here are very careful about childcare funding and I know several CMs who've been audited locally, including having to prove their attendance records match the hours claimed.

The idea of "money for nothing" from an LA sounds a bit too good to be true. IIWY, I'd be wanting to check it at source with the LA funding team.

**Kiddleywinks** · 29-02-2016, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by bunyip

I'm thinking along the same lines as Mouse. Whenever I hear/read "I've been told", my immediate response is "who told you and do they have any authority in the matter?" .

Absolutely!

Our LA only allows us to claim the hours the child attends. So if child uses 10 hours per week funded, then that's what we claim for.
We also have to alert the LA if a child fails to use all the claimed hours per week regularly eg if parent collects early for more than say 3 weeks.

Seriously, you need to check your funded contract or your LA for clarification about what is or isn't acceptable

**MrsP2C** · 29-02-2016, 09:48 PM

Believe it or was my LA who told me this although they have referred me to another agency who handle cm funding issues).

Mindee currently does 3 x 10 hr days and will do until mum goes on mat leave in May (so the first month of summer term inc headcount week hence claiming all 15 hrs) then dropping to 2 x 7.5 hr days so in theory she should do 15 hrs. However, mum is concerned about getting up & out for a specific time or trying in with feeding etc so some days dad will drop off (a bit later) and some days she might collect before school run etc.

**Mouse** · 29-02-2016, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by MrsP2C

Believe it or was my LA who told me this although they have referred me to another agency who handle cm funding issues).

Mindee currently does 3 x 10 hr days and will do until mum goes on mat leave in May (so the first month of summer term inc headcount week hence claiming all 15 hrs) then dropping to 2 x 7.5 hr days so in theory she should do 15 hrs. However, mum is concerned about getting up & out for a specific time or trying in with feeding etc so some days dad will drop off (a bit later) and some days she might collect before school run etc.

I wouldn't see any problem at all with that then. You'll be contracted for 15 hours, so that fine. I think the issue with missing hours is more about parents who sign their children up with a childminder, nursery etc, but never attend at all or who only attend now and again. I think the LA is more concerned about children missing for full days or weeks rather than arriving a bit late and leaving a bit early.

Simona · 29-02-2016, 10:05 PM

Apart from funding issues which arise from non attendance but vary from LA to LA ....it may be worth checking about safeguarding too if non attendance is regular ...it needs monitoring.

All should be clear in your LA contract and what they expect in these circumstances

**bunyip** · 01-03-2016, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by MrsP2C

Believe it or was my LA who told me this although they have referred me to another agency who handle cm funding issues).

Mindee currently does 3 x 10 hr days and will do until mum goes on mat leave in May (so the first month of summer term inc headcount week hence claiming all 15 hrs) then dropping to 2 x 7.5 hr days so in theory she should do 15 hrs. However, mum is concerned about getting up & out for a specific time or trying in with feeding etc so some days dad will drop off (a bit later) and some days she might collect before school run etc.

Excellent, but get it in writing. When it comes to an audit, a verbal agreement will only be worth the paper it isn't printed on.

**MrsP2C** · 01-03-2016, 10:37 PM

Thanks all. When does an audit happen (& what do they want to see?)

Simona · 02-03-2016, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by MrsP2C

Thanks all. When does an audit happen (& what do they want to see?)

The audit happens when your LA informs you they need to visit you and this should be in writing...they should not just turn up at your door.

The audit is only for the purpose of looking at your invoices and making sure you are 'not charging' for the 15 free hours....what and how you run your business is not in their remit to check .....LAs are not allowed to audit your accounts or anything else.

Please check the DfE guidance for more details.....and your LA's EYPP guidance for absence

Good luck!

**Mouse** · 02-03-2016, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by MrsP2C

Thanks all. When does an audit happen (& what do they want to see?)

Our LA plans to audit all settings once every 3 years. Last time I was audited they sent a list of the info they needed. It included things like attendance register for funded children, parental contracts for funding ( not our personal cm ones), examples of invoices, examples of any info we give to parents regarding funding, bank statement to show the money was going into my bank account (I went online and just printed off a page showing the LA payments), evidence of PLI and the level of cover. They also made a note of dates when we'd last done first aid and safeguarding training.

We had the choice off attending a drop in session where we could get everything checked over, sending everything to the EYs team, or arranging for them to visit us at home.

Simona · 02-03-2016, 08:43 AM

Mouse...it shows that each LA will do things differently
If you are happy to be audited in that way ...then it is your choice...I certainly would not take my records out anywhere to them.

I personally would also prefer to follow DfE guidance as my business is nothing to do with LAs...apart from showing them I do not charge for the free hours.

Check the concerns being raised at this very moment as govt is giving providers advice on their business....for some is a NO NO....whatever next?

When provider sign a contract to get the funding all these details must be checked and questioned if necessary....that is the aim of a contract!

LAs are not qualified to check our accounts...up to us if we let them

**Mouse** · 02-03-2016, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Simona

Mouse...it shows that each LA will do things differently
If you are happy to be audited in that way ...then it is your choice...I certainly would not take my records out anywhere to them.

I personally would also prefer to follow DfE guidance as my business is nothing to do with LAs...apart from showing them I do not charge for the free hours.

Check the concerns being raised at this very moment as govt is giving providers advice on their business....for some is a NO NO....whatever next.

When provider sign a contract to get the funding all these details must be checked and questioned if necessary....that is the aim of a contract!

LAs are not qualified to check our accounts...up to us if we let them

I have no problem at all with taking my records to them. For me, that was much easier than having them visit here when I'd have had to deal with children as well as the person from the LA. I put all the info I needed in a folder, took it along, they checked what I had, ticked their forms and that was it. It took no more than half an hour.

All they were asking for was related to funding. There was certainly no interest in the rest of my business. At no time did they want to see any accounts or anything unrelated to funding. The things they asked for were perfectly reasonable and were detailed in the contract we sign with them.

Simona · 02-03-2016, 08:56 AM

Good to hear you are happy...I have also heard cms being confused about what the LAs are checking....because they may misunderstand the use of 'audit'

Thanks for the clarification...would it not be good to have all 152 LAs sing from the same hymn sheet like we do from the EYFS?
Hope never dies