Anyone offer Shift worker contracts

[Elkie Mawdsley]

Hello

I am newly registered and looking for my first set of parents. I have received contact from a lady who works shifts. All I know at present is that they are not static, but she does know what they are for the next year.

Does anyone offer shift worker contracts - I'm assuming it makes it very difficult to get other contracts to fit around that one child - do you charge the usual fees or a higher one to accommodate your flexibility?

Thanks for your help x

[karen2010]

Hard to answer without knowing her shifts ....but when I first started I took someone on who did shift work - was evenings and Saturdays and I charged £5 each per child (2 siblings)
Was a great earner and I was happy to do it.
It can be very hard when you first start out to get your first client, if you are happy with the shift times I would go for it, the "ideal" of 3 LOs Mon - fri is actually very hard to get !!!
Xxxx

[tulip0803]

I had a shift worker and negotiated a £10 retainer per day not used fee as I had to keep the space free everyday, normal fees for a day used. I explained to them that as I only had 3 spaces for children under 5 I needed to ensure that I was earning enough to keep me running which was why I needed a retainer - they were grateful to find someone willing to do shift work.

I was able to take on ad-hoc children on some of the days not worked to make up the fees. They always paid on time (if not a few days before sometimes before I had the invoice done and was always correct).

[Kiddleywinks]

My shift worker was same hours each day but only 3 days out of 5.
I charged full fees for the 3 days needed and half fees for the 3 days I had to hold, and that was fine.

If it had been different hours each week I would have worked a set fee that I was prepared to lose out on financially in favour of having regular work

How I would work an arrangement like that out:
Space available 0800 - 1800 = 10 hours @ £4 ph = £40 per day = £200 per week
Parent needs 20hrs wk1, 40hrs wk2, 27hrs wk 3, 10hrs wk 4
= 97 hrs over 4 weeks = 24.25hrs per week (I don't do part hours so would round up to 25 @ £4 ph)
= avg £100 per week

Difference of £100 per week down for holding a space that can't be used by someone else.

That would make it £150 per week flat rate, plus top up fees for anything over 30 hours


It all depends on how much you want the work, as Karen said, the ideal of 3 LO's using a full time space is very hard to get
I would also point out that it's not the length of notice I have for shift workers hours, it's the space constraints it puts on me, and how busy I am, that influences how I charge.

[Simona]

Reading this thread with great interest
It looks like shift workers are paying twice...once for the space and again for retaining the place? and I can see why but...
Why not put them under 'continuity of care' and under variations?

Shift workers may not be able to use other providers and Cms are the most flexible option...

someone ought to ring the DfE and Ofsted and point this out to them just in case they decide to reword the 'ratio' section of the EYFS 2014 to include this issue which is likely to come up a lot...I cannot see why either of them would not look at this properly?

[Rachel23]

I have two sets of parents who work shifts. One is a police officer the other a care assistant. I have these families on Adhoc contracts and have the agreement in place that I can only offer care when a place is available, if I don't have a space on the day they require I can't offer childcare.

I have the police officers hours for the year as he has given me his rota and the other parent gives me the shifts a month in advance.

A month in advance I check my numbers, I have all my minders who attend set days written down on a monthly calendar I then look at the dates shift parents require. If I can accommodate I will if I can't I speak to another local minder and see if she has a space and tell the parents when I can and can't offer care and if the other minder has space. This works well for me And parents as it gives them enough time to sort alternative childcare.

My parents days never seem to be the same shifts month to month so holding a place a few days a week doesn't work for me as I can still offer a set place to other children of it comes along.

[Simona]

I have two sets of parents who work shifts. One is a police officer the other a care assistant. I have these families on Adhoc contracts and have the agreement in place that I can only offer care when a place is available, if I don't have a space on the day they require I can't offer childcare.

I have the police officers hours for the year as he has given me his rota and the other parent gives me the shifts a month in advance.

A month in advance I check my numbers, I have all my minders who attend set days written down on a monthly calendar I then look at the dates shift parents require. If I can accommodate I will if I can't I speak to another local minder and see if she has a space and tell the parents when I can and can't offer care and if the other minder has space. This works well for me And parents as it gives them enough time to sort alternative childcare.

My parents days never seem to be the same shifts month to month so holding a place a few days a week doesn't work for me as I can still offer a set place to other children of it comes along.

Sorry to ask you ...have you enquired if these children can be under a variation? Would you contact DfE or Ofsted and ask if this would be allowed?

Just thinking aloud really but shift workers need childcare and if it is offered ad hoc that means the children would end up going all sorts of places rather than have continuity with one cm?

I would say that those parents who are on 'zero hours' contract could be 'ad hoc'...as and when needed and if the space was not available they may lose the work altogether if they have no childcare but.... what of those who have 'guaranteed' work but on a shift pattern?

I am sure there must be a way these parents can be accommodated ? although it does not look like the DfE has considered this in their wisdom despite the fact the govt is pushing parents back into work without providing the opportunity for providers to offer real flexible childcare

[Rachel23]

Sorry to ask you ...have you enquired if these children can be under a variation? Would you contact DfE or Ofsted and ask if this would be allowed? Just thinking aloud really but shift workers need childcare and if it is offered ad hoc that means the children would end up going all sorts of places rather than have continuity with one cm? I would say that those parents who are on 'zero hours' contract could be 'ad hoc'...as and when needed and if the space was not available they may lose the work altogether if they have no childcare but.... what of those who have 'guaranteed' work but on a shift pattern? I am sure there must be a way these parents can be accommodated ? although it does not look like the DfE has considered this in their wisdom despite the fact the govt is pushing parents back into work without providing the opportunity for providers to offer real flexible childcare

That's a very good point and I'm sure they would and should be classed as a variation but I haven't contacted anyone about it personally.

From experience of Ofsted and variations they won't tell you anything other than tell you to refer back to the eyfs!

In my area we have no development officer or any real support so not sure who I could ask! X

[Kiddleywinks]

Reading this thread with great interest
It looks like shift workers are paying twice...once for the space and again for retaining the place? and I can see why but...
Why not put them under 'continuity of care' and under variations?

Because it's not continuity of care, it's new business

I wasn't in need of an ofsted approved variation prior to the eyfs changing, so don't really have any experience of what was allowed and what wasn't.
I do know that since eyfs12 came out there appears to be a lot of confusion within ofsted inspectors themselves as to what is and isn't allowed
- a childminder being downgraded for being over numbers as the inspector claimed a rising 5 was still counted in their eyfs spaces (?!!)
- an older sibling of a younger minded child being taken on under continuity of care, only for an inspector to say it's not continuity of care, but would have been if it was the other way round (?!!)


I don't look at it as paying twice, maybe I should, but a parent approaches asking for certain criteria. I look at my available spaces and see if I am able to fulfil that criteria.
Parent wants 10 hours a day, they pay for 10 hours a day the space is theirs
Parent wants 5 hours a day, they pay for 5 hours a day, the space is theirs for their contracted times, and if I can get someone else after their 5 hours the space is split between 2 parents, if not, I lose out but that's the nature of the job.
Parent wants 10 hours a day on a set 3 day week, they pay for 10 hours a day on a set 3 day week, the other 2 days I might be able to accommodate someone else
Parent wants erratic hours on erratic days, they pay for the space to be held to accommodate their needs, but it is their space, so I wouldn't look at trying to share it with anyone else (not even ad hoc)
The alternative is to not take them on in the first place, and how it is that fair?

I have 6 spaces, each parent pays for their space, and knows that I don't juggle with variations to earn more
I have 2 TTO children. I also have 2 Holiday only children. The 4 children take up 2 spaces.
If the TTO children needed holiday care as a one off, I would have to have the available spaces free on the day required, or the answer is no, sorry.
Yes I could probably grant a self variation, but to be honest, things are so airy fairy at the moment I wouldn't want to take the risk that a. I was wrong, or b. someone could be reporting me for being over my numbers because they don't understand the rules either!

That is the way I do things, it works for me, but it doesn't necessarily works for everyone, and that's fine too

[Elkie Mawdsley]

Thank you all for the very informative answers

[Kittycat]

Hello

I am newly registered and looking for my first set of parents. I have received contact from a lady who works shifts. All I know at present is that they are not static, but she does know what they are for the next year.

Does anyone offer shift worker contracts - I'm assuming it makes it very difficult to get other contracts to fit around that one child - do you charge the usual fees or a higher one to accommodate your flexibility?

Thanks for your help x

I would answer yes to shift work
However I would be charging the full month
So if she required only two weeks out of that month, I would still be billing for four weeks
It's very hard to get another parent that would require the same & it would obviously limit that space and you would not be able to use that space to its full potential.

[Simona]

Because it's not continuity of care, it's new business

I wasn't in need of an ofsted approved variation prior to the eyfs changing, so don't really have any experience of what was allowed and what wasn't.
I do know that since eyfs12 came out there appears to be a lot of confusion within ofsted inspectors themselves as to what is and isn't allowed
- a childminder being downgraded for being over numbers as the inspector claimed a rising 5 was still counted in their eyfs spaces (?!!)
- an older sibling of a younger minded child being taken on under continuity of care, only for an inspector to say it's not continuity of care, but would have been if it was the other way round (?!!)


I don't look at it as paying twice, maybe I should, but a parent approaches asking for certain criteria. I look at my available spaces and see if I am able to fulfil that criteria.
Parent wants 10 hours a day, they pay for 10 hours a day the space is theirs
Parent wants 5 hours a day, they pay for 5 hours a day, the space is theirs for their contracted times, and if I can get someone else after their 5 hours the space is split between 2 parents, if not, I lose out but that's the nature of the job.
Parent wants 10 hours a day on a set 3 day week, they pay for 10 hours a day on a set 3 day week, the other 2 days I might be able to accommodate someone else
Parent wants erratic hours on erratic days, they pay for the space to be held to accommodate their needs, but it is their space, so I wouldn't look at trying to share it with anyone else (not even ad hoc)
The alternative is to not take them on in the first place, and how it is that fair?

I have 6 spaces, each parent pays for their space, and knows that I don't juggle with variations to earn more
I have 2 TTO children. I also have 2 Holiday only children. The 4 children take up 2 spaces.
If the TTO children needed holiday care as a one off, I would have to have the available spaces free on the day required, or the answer is no, sorry.
Yes I could probably grant a self variation, but to be honest, things are so airy fairy at the moment I wouldn't want to take the risk that a. I was wrong, or b. someone could be reporting me for being over my numbers because they don't understand the rules either!

That is the way I do things, it works for me, but it doesn't necessarily works for everyone, and that's fine too

Thank you for the clarification Kiddleywinks.....I made a general suggestion and , of course we all do things differently and, as you say, what works for you may not work for another....what you interpret one way another cm will interpret another
It is interesting that variations still cause a problem.

With regards to inspectors 'interpreting' the variations in an individual way, downgrading cms for variations and the whole situation being very confusing you are correct ....we all know that it has become a mess and we need to get it sorted ASAP as it has gone on for 2 years and unless addressed EYFS 2014 will prove just as confusing.

In my view unless we report these cases/confusion/wrong judgements/downgrading/and so on and on there is no chance of getting to a solution....

If you look at the feedback I provided after the London OBC the issue has now been officially raised with Ofsted at that particular meeting and in particular with the Ofsted EYFS Lead who attended the meeting and responded to my question.
Having raised the matter I will make sure it gets followed up and we get answers at the next meeting bearing in mind the EYFS is written by the DfE...the very dept who wants us to be flexible and help those who work with atypical hours by offering childcare that suits those parents....and yet the DfE is the very body who is putting barriers in our way

Does anyone know if any of their representing associations are chasing this issue for cms and getting it cleared up for us?

[AliceK]

All of my 4 EY's children are shift workers. I couldn't possibly have them all under an exception. As the shifts change so no 2 weeks are the same I have to hold all 4 spaces for 4 weeks per month but they probably only use half that so I lose out on a LOT of money and if I was starting again I'm not sure I would be so accommodating. I didn't have shift workers in the early days I had 1 FT and the rest PT but set days / hours.

xxx

[bunyip]

With regards to inspectors 'interpreting' the variations in an individual way, downgrading cms for variations and the whole situation being very confusing you are correct ....we all know that it has become a mess and we need to get it sorted ASAP as it has gone on for 2 years and unless addressed EYFS 2014 will prove just as confusing.

In my view unless we report these cases/confusion/wrong judgements/downgrading/and so on and on there is no chance of getting to a solution....

Does anyone know if any of their representing associations are chasing this issue for cms and getting it cleared up for us?

(I've edited Simona's quote down to the bits on which I'm commenting. Hope this does justice and does not set things out of context.)

Whilst your point is a valid one, I very much doubt that most CMs want to be having to take chances, get downgraded then join the campaign to 'get to a solution'. AFAIC, that's what organisations like pacey should be doing. I think the vast majority of CMs would rather play safe and know how to leave as few open doors and grey areas as possible for inspectors to exploit.

I certainly agree with your earlier comments about wanting to help shift workers. I did shift work for much of my adult life, and shift workers face a lot of problems: if they were seen as a social group, it's be called "discrimination". I think a lot of CMs are pretty disingenuous about claiming to be "flexible" then shutting out shift workers or whacking prohibitive charges on them. All of which is more than a little unfair as we all rely on them if we need a hospital, engine, train, plane, etc. etc.

I can see the agencies being a good move for shift workers - and this may well kill off the myth of the "flexible" CM.

[Simona]

(I've edited Simona's quote down to the bits on which I'm commenting. Hope this does justice and does not set things out of context.)

Whilst your point is a valid one, I very much doubt that most CMs want to be having to take chances, get downgraded then join the campaign to 'get to a solution'. AFAIC, that's what organisations like pacey should be doing. I think the vast majority of CMs would rather play safe and know how to leave as few open doors and grey areas as possible for inspectors to exploit.

I certainly agree with your earlier comments about wanting to help shift workers. I did shift work for much of my adult life, and shift workers face a lot of problems: if they were seen as a social group, it's be called "discrimination". I think a lot of CMs are pretty disingenuous about claiming to be "flexible" then shutting out shift workers or whacking prohibitive charges on them. All of which is more than a little unfair as we all rely on them if we need a hospital, engine, train, plane, etc. etc.

I can see the agencies being a good move for shift workers - and this may well kill off the myth of the "flexible" CM.

Thank you for your comments Bunyip...
I am not asking for cms 'to take a chance' and 'not play safe' on variations and never have...

all I am asking is for the whole saga to be resolved and be clarified once and for all... with or without our associations' help...it has become clear that inspectors' training is under scrutiny and our input at OBC has helped to get it sorted to a certain degree

I think I have done my bit to get it to Ofsted's attention and, should I ever be in a situation where I need to help 'shift worker, I would knock on Ofsted's door ...or the DfE for an answer and not leave it to chance

[Merlot]

I used to have a shift worker for after school children. As it was a term time only contract for 4 days, parents wanted the same 4 days but some weeks only 2 or 3. I charged full rate for the hours I had them and half rate for the days I didn't. Holidays were on an ad hoc if i was required otherwise it was half rate for school hols which is what I charge anyway. This worked for us both and wasn't too bad as they were older children, but to be honest I've not had anyone request it with the under 5's. I would probably charge half rate.