Getting myself confused!!!
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  1. #1
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    Default Getting myself confused!!!

    Help!!
    I have a little boy that does 9am - 2.30pm I charge a minimum of 7 hours. All fine, contract been in place for a year.
    However I have recently advised all my parents that there will be a fee increase in September. This particular mum has now asked for the extra hours to make it up to the 7 that she pays for but unfortunately I dont have the spaces as I am on the school run and would have too many non walkers. The mum has recently had some extra hours and has not paid as she pointed out that she already pays for the extra hours. I let it go.
    Im now doing her new fees for September, I cant offer her any extra hours to cover the minimum 7 that she pays for but the contract states these hours at that price. My business head says that those are the contracted hours (9-2.30) and that is the price for those hours and extra ad hoc hours should be paid for but I feel bad! Should I offer a discount, no charge on extra ad hoc hours or stick to the contract and charge?

    What should I do? Offer a discount?
    Heeeeelpppppp

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    Gosh, this is complex.

    IIWY, I'd take legal advice to see where you stand.

    My guess is that you'd have been better to have put a "minimum charge" in place rather than "minimum hours". By stating it as "minimum hours" you are at the very least implying that you are effectively 'selling' her those hours, thus giving her the right to actually use them if needed.

    This probably calls for some proper legal knowledge, and you might do well to take legal advice before the client does.

    Hope you find a good solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    Gosh, this is complex.

    IIWY, I'd take legal advice to see where you stand.

    My guess is that you'd have been better to have put a "minimum charge" in place rather than "minimum hours". By stating it as "minimum hours" you are at the very least implying that you are effectively 'selling' her those hours, thus giving her the right to actually use them if needed.

    This probably calls for some proper legal knowledge, and you might do well to take legal advice before the client does.

    Hope you find a good solution.
    Its actually down as minimum daily rate

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    As you are reviewing the contract with her ifyou may find if she needs the extra hours and you cant provide them she may need to go elsewhere if she is asking to use them just because she is paying for them what I would do is charge for the 5 and a half but put her fee up so that you are still getting roughly the same amount maybe a little less so she feels she isnt out of pocket if that makes sense x anything extra is paid for as you see fit I dont see why you should work for free!
    Last edited by madredann; 24-07-2013 at 11:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kindertime View Post
    Its actually down as minimum daily rate
    I think either way you have worded it you are charging the mum for the 7 hours so I can see why she thinks those hours are available for her.

    What would I do - well I would charge her for the hours used especially if someone else is using the hours
    When someone tells you nothing is impossible, tell them to go slam a revolving door

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kindertime View Post
    Its actually down as minimum daily rate
    In which case she may argue that she is paying for a full day!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    In which case she may argue that she is paying for a full day!
    Blooming 'eck!
    Fortunately this is only on my website and not on the contract (Phew!)

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    I would say if you are charging for them she is entitled to them. Alot of childminders charge whilst a child is at nursery so that if there is a day off they are covered. Is this not the same. If she pays for the 7 hours an agreed 7 hours should be available in case she need them. E.g contracted hours 9-4 actual hours 9-2.30. I charge 2 hours minimum for after school yet one child attends one hour on Friday when an extra hour was needed I did it (begrudgingly as no notice) and did not charge any extra

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    If she is paying for seven hours then you should be available to have the child for the seven hours regardless of what is the normal use. I would only be charging for the hours that are available.

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    You say you don't have space because of school run & too many non-walkers. Could you get a new pushchair? Or buggy board?

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    tbh if you are charging a min. charge based on the fact she doesnt' need a full day but you can't actually offer her a full day even if she wanted it, then I'd say you can't charge her
    if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Juggler View Post
    tbh if you are charging a min. charge based on the fact she doesnt' need a full day but you can't actually offer her a full day even if she wanted it, then I'd say you can't charge her
    I agree with this

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    Can you adjust your fees so you charge more for less hours
    eg
    10 hours £3.50 per hour
    6 - 10 hours £4 per hour
    under 6 hours £5 per hour

    The only minimum charge I do is after school care regardless of hours used (1 hour in the morning and 3 after school are being paid for) but if a parent runs late of an evening I don't charge any extra until it hits 6pm, and I don't get upset as I've already been paid to cover the time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kindertime View Post
    Help!!
    I have a little boy that does 9am - 2.30pm I charge a minimum of 7 hours. All fine, contract been in place for a year.
    However I have recently advised all my parents that there will be a fee increase in September. This particular mum has now asked for the extra hours to make it up to the 7 that she pays for but unfortunately I dont have the spaces as I am on the school run and would have too many non walkers. The mum has recently had some extra hours and has not paid as she pointed out that she already pays for the extra hours. I let it go.
    Im now doing her new fees for September, I cant offer her any extra hours to cover the minimum 7 that she pays for but the contract states these hours at that price. My business head says that those are the contracted hours (9-2.30) and that is the price for those hours and extra ad hoc hours should be paid for but I feel bad! Should I offer a discount, no charge on extra ad hoc hours or stick to the contract and charge?

    What should I do? Offer a discount?
    Heeeeelpppppp

    Ok I am a little confused here
    You have the child 9-2.30 5 hours but charge her 7 hours?
    If I am following this correctly I am confused to why you are charging 2 extra hours?
    If you are charging her for the extra hours, you should be available to have her child, if you are not, then I would be only charging the full 5 you have the child for

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittycat View Post
    Ok I am a little confused here
    You have the child 9-2.30 5 hours but charge her 7 hours?
    If I am following this correctly I am confused to why you are charging 2 extra hours?
    If you are charging her for the extra hours, you should be available to have her child, if you are not, then I would be only charging the full 5 you have the child for
    Because the OP has a minimum charge of 7 hours

    Lots of CM's have a minimum charge, or a session rate, regardless of how many hours the parent uses, but this can cause problems, as highlighted by OP.

  19. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddleywinks View Post
    Can you adjust your fees so you charge more for less hours
    eg
    10 hours £3.50 per hour
    6 - 10 hours £4 per hour
    under 6 hours £5 per hour

    The only minimum charge I do is after school care regardless of hours used (1 hour in the morning and 3 after school are being paid for) but if a parent runs late of an evening I don't charge any extra until it hits 6pm, and I don't get upset as I've already been paid to cover the time
    I do exactly the same for before/after school. Then I have a minimum booking of 5 hours during the day, everyone uses the full 5 hours, but the time would have to be available if they didn't. The advice of different hourly rates is a good idea.

    I can understand why the parent wants the 7 hours, she is paying for them after all.

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    I agree with most. If you have a minimum of 7 hours but she uses only 5 surely she has the right to use the other 2 hours if needed?

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    OK. IIUC the contract is to provide 5 1/2 hours of care between 0900-1430 (lets call it 5 for the sake of consistency with previous posts.)

    Post #7 is saying the "minimum 7 hours" is stated on the OP's website. Again, I hope I've understood this properly.

    This raises 2 questions:
    1. Is the "minimum 7 hours" condition also explicitly stated in the contract, or............
    2. .........does the contract, at the very least, clearly state that "Ts&Cs will include those mentioned on my website" (or similar)

    The latter option isn't great, cos it is easy to edit a website and thereby silently change the contract. If I were a client, I'd refuse to sign that sort of thing, but hey-ho.

    If neither of these is the case, then the client should have no trouble arguing that she's been over-charged. Conversely, if she has been contracted and charged correctly for 7 hours, then she probably has the right to use those 7 hours. In effect, she has been charged a 100% retainer for any unused hours, meaning that place is hers by right and must not be filled with another child, even if the client is not using it.

    A further problem is that, by putting the "minimum 7 hours" on the website, it is now in the public domain. This could be seen as constituting a legal "offer of sale". ie. The CM is offering 7 hours of CMing services. Failure to deliver the 7 hours publicly offered could be seen as a breach of advertising standards.

    So far, the OP's best hope is that the client isn't bright enough to pick up on this (and maybe get a solicitor onto the matter.)

    As mentioned by numerous other members, the OP cannot actually offer those 7 hours and is therefore batting on a sticky wicket when trying to charge for them.

    I think the sensible thing to do would be to redraw the contract asap. By replacing the "minimum hours" with a "minimum charge" clause (or, as members have suggested, simply raising the hourly fee) it is possible, on paper, to achieve the same income without committing more hours/space to the client (and IIUC the place isn't there to offer in any case.)

    It's a solution, but I take no pride in coming up with it. On paper, it's all fine and dandy, but I have so far overlooked the obvious. That is, the client is very likely to see right through it and hit the roof. It might be all the OP can do, but don't be surprised if the client walks.

  22. #19
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    I think if the contract states a minimum daily rate of £x (which presumably is the same as your hourly rate x 7) then your client isn't legally entitled to extra time for free.

    However, it doesn't seem fair that the place isn't even available BUT if it's been explained & in the contract then the parent needs to accept it or re-negotiate the contract with you.

    I would have a re-think about whether you keep things as they are or make any changes, then write out a parent's guide so that all parents know exactly where they stand re what they need to pay extra for / whether extra free hours are available or not.

    I haven't thought alot about this (don't have a min. daily rate at the mo.) but I might state something like up to X amount of extra hours per day are available at the ruduced rate of £x (maybe half/quarter price) booked four weeks in advance. I think I would make the extra hours really cheap to be honest & keep the place open as I think they'd be paying the daily rate so that I don't have to get another part-time child in. I'd like the four weeks notice though so that I know what I'm doing in advance.

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    As far as I can see you have charged mum x amount for the contracted time. If she wanted extra time up to the 7 hours I wouldn't charge her as additional hours but if you don't have the space to give her additional hours then it isn't your fault

    I think the problem here is that you have told her it is a minimum hours fee. I just say that it is x for the time she booked.

    You now have to think about how to get around this without losing your children. What about getting a triple buggy and taking the extra hours as continuity of care? Maybe mum is testing you as she is miffed at paying for something she is not using and may not actually use the hours

    Either way, learn from this and don't tell parents that there is a minimum hour but a minimum fee.

    If you feel that she was happy with the fee when you did the contract and you haven't put minimum hours or paid for 7 hours then you don't need to reduce and she will have to wait until more hours are available. It isn't you who needs to change the hours.

    You must be prepared to lose this one though.
    Debbie

 

 
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