BIG PROBLEM Child Ratios p.51 - Ofsted now say

**Blaze** · 29-05-2008, 08:06 PM

I will call & say the same thing...if enough of us do it...we may make some progress! Well done you!

Pipsqueak · 29-05-2008, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by susi513

Update!!! Had a reply from DCSF at last. But not got anywhere. First they said that children attending a normal school day CAN be counted as an over 5 in school holidays as well.

Delighted, says I ... but what about my 4 year old mindee who will NEVER come to my setting either before OR after a normal school day as she will only be coming in school holidays ? And as well as those parents who might only require regular childcare in school holidays - what of those who might ask for ad-hoc/emergency childcare in holidays, training days etc. No-one's going to get a variation in time for a snow day or to cover a colleague's sickness!

I said I was disappointed the EYFS hadn't grasped the opportunity to save Ofsted a whole lot of avoidable admin and change it so that all children count as an older child for the purposes of child ratios from day one of the reception class regardless of whether they attend full or part time. (don't expect them to do that, but it doesn't hurt to ask lol).

Apparently my comments are fully appreciated and have been passed to the Policy Team.

Fingers crossed that the Policy Team have some common sense!

Well done Susi. This is just nonsensical. The Policy Team huh - bet we could do better!!! lol

Pipsqueak · 29-05-2008, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Hannahlg

IF 4 YEAR CHILDREN ARE ATTENDING SCHOOL FULL TIME - THERE ARE CLASSED AS OVER 5S ALWAYS WILL BE

IT SAYS IT IN THE NCMA MAGAZINE

it dosnt make secne to class them as under 5s when there at school fulltime as parent are not going to pay for a full day place when there at school all day are there? Nope

The thing is Hannah is that Ofsted are currently unsure themselves. The way the EYFS is worded the rising 5 will no longer exist technically. NCMA only told me a few days ago that they were unsure so I was gobsmacked at the article. A*se and elbows!!!!

**Hannahlg** · 30-05-2008, 08:21 AM

but there cant expect us to to use our under 5 place for children who ar all school all day can there. I you you really think about there cant do it.

It isnit going to change we wil lstill be able to class children in the other 5s when there at school fulltime.

Pipsqueak · 30-05-2008, 08:54 AM

until there is official confirmation then its still up in the air. There are many things the "officals" can't do (just purely for reasonable reasons) but they do!!!

I do hope the NCMA article is "official confirmation" but NCMA are the ones to decide this sadly. Common sense should prevail here so fingers crossed its does

justgoodfriends · 30-05-2008, 01:51 PM

The NCMA article was written BEFORE Monday's EYFS revisions were published. They were expecting the statement on page 51 to be reworded in these revisions.. but of of course it wasn't!!

The latest I've heard is that Ofsted have been instructed by the DCSF to send all childminders a letter in July informing them of the changes in ratios. Minders that have rung Ofsted in the last day or 2 have been told that rising 5's will only count as over 5's during term time.

**sandy** · 30-05-2008, 02:13 PM

As suggested by susi513 I e-mailed through teachernet yesterday and have received a reply as follows

"I would like to explain that where four and five yr olds attend full time school and only attend the cm setting before and after the school day, they can be counted as over five for the purposes of the ratio requirements."

AND THE IMPORTANT BIT ;

" These children may also be counted as over the age of 5 during the school holidays"

This was from a David Pettit, Public Communications Unit, DCSF.

I've printed it out for my records but will still be watching and waiting !!!

Sandy

**Hannahlg** · 30-05-2008, 02:29 PM

so there saying we can class them as over 5s

i have emailed them saying the following
Hello I'm witting about the whole issues about when children start school full time in the reception class, that in the school we have to count them as under 5 children, but during term time we can class them as after school.
Some people are saying that we can class them as over 5s in school holidays and others are saying we can’t. And another question, Is it every child in the reception class who will have to be classed as under 5s in the school holidays or is it just the ones who are are still 4 years old and not turned 5 yet.

I don't see how the hell you can expect childminders to keep a place open all year round for a child who is at school fulltime because you won’t us to class them as under 5 children during the school holidays. Childminders will be losing out on money. you cant have one rule for term time and one for school holidays

For example 1 childminder is allowed 3 children under the age of 5 years. if we are looking after a child who attends school full time in the reception class we will be losing out on money as we cant charge parents when they child is at school full days. But there will be taking up a a full under 5s place as we wont be able to fill that place, as you are expecting us to class them as under 5s in the school holidays. So we will really only have two under 5 places for the whole of that year

So the whole year while a child is in the reception we will be losing on a lot of money.

I am witting this email on the behalf of Catherine ********, I am her daughter who works along side her as an assistant
Please email me back as soon as possible please

**SimplyLucy** · 30-05-2008, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mumof4

Ok, I just rang OFSTED, did my I'm all thick thing!

Told them I'm sorting out places for Spetember and needed to know if my son who starts full time school in September but isn't 5 until February will be classed as a 5 year old.

I was told that YES he will be classed as a 5 year old (rising 5 she called it), once he has begun full time school and will be in the 5-8 brackets for the purpose of adult:child ratios.

I then went on to ask her which bracket he comes under in the holidays which she said "he'll stay in the 5-8 year old bracket thoughout the holidays once he has started full time school"

She then went on to give me the address that I'll need to send a letter to to get my certificate changed, she told me to send the letter off around the middle of August!

I'm happy with what she has told me and will be going along these guidelines until anyone stands in my front lounge and tells me otherwise!

I've just rung OFSTED to follow up on my phone call of last week and now I'm being told my son can only be classed as a 5 year old during the term time and NOT in the holidays. Therefore I have lost his space.

I have the added problem of having a mindee starting school in September, I'll have to seriously consider charging his mum a retainer fee during term time to hold his space open for the holidays. I don't think she is going to like it, but tax credits pay for 80% of her childcare so I'm sure we can come to some arrangement.

I've just rung NCMA who will not confirm either way if their article is correct or not, they just told me it's being "looked into".

**Hannahlg** · 30-05-2008, 03:08 PM

well we have 3 children who will be starting school in september.

1 is going fulltime.
2 are just going in the morings untill janureay (there will be classed as under 5s till janureay anyways)

The 2 who will be starting fulltim in janreay wil have a place in the under 5 section in the hoilday.

but the one going fulltime wont, and the one going fulltime will be coming every afterschool. he has a place in the over 5s in the school hoildoys but not in the under 5s

**MissTinkerbell** · 30-05-2008, 03:11 PM

So it looks like a 4 year old is a 5 year old whilst they are at school but when they are on holiday they are 4 again?

How ridiculous is that? So far I don't have any mindees but I can see I'm going to have to be very careful who I take on. Guess I need to probably say no to my mum who has 2 year old twins and a 4 year starting school in September. I was going to write to Ofsted for a variation as I have 2 year old twins myself but this would give me 4 under-5s during term-time plus 2, 5-8 year olds and then 1 5-8 year old and 5 under-5s during holidays.

Nightmare

**Hannahlg** · 30-05-2008, 03:17 PM

hopefull there will say we can still class them as over 5s

half of mine dont even come in the hoildays but there a place in the hoildays and there pay half fee's for it if there dont come in the hoildays. If there dont come in the hoildays and i dont have a place for them i cant chrage them half fee's. But if have a place for them and there not using it i can charge them half fee's.

Pipsqueak · 30-05-2008, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by sandy

As suggested by susi513 I e-mailed through teachernet yesterday and have received a reply as follows

"I would like to explain that where four and five yr olds attend full time school and only attend the cm setting before and after the school day, they can be counted as over five for the purposes of the ratio requirements."

AND THE IMPORTANT BIT ;

" These children may also be counted as over the age of 5 during the school holidays"

This was from a David Pettit, Public Communications Unit, DCSF.

I've printed it out for my records but will still be watching and waiting !!!

Sandy

THis is still wide open to interpretation though isn't it....

children who attend the cm setting beforeandafter school, - so if they only attend one session with you before OR after school they will still be classed as 5. So I suppose those who may only have holidays fulltime schoolies age 4 will be classed in the 4yr old bracket.

Think someone somewhere wants to do some serious thinking about the implications and wording of...

Oh this is doing my head in.... I am only going to take children up to the start of their reception year and from the end of their reception year/turn 5!! There settled

Pipsqueak · 30-05-2008, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Hannahlg

hopefull there will say we can still class them as over 5s

half of mine dont even come in the hoildays but there a place in the hoildays and there pay half fee's for it if there dont come in the hoildays. If there dont come in the hoildays and i dont have a place for them i cant chrage them half fee's. But if have a place for them and there not using it i can charge them half fee's.

Yes but you can only charge if they have it in the contract that they may want the space/care therefore requiring you to leave that space open in the holidays ergo the space is there that you are charging retainer for but they are choosing not to use the (possbile) contracted time for.
If they categorically don't want care during the holidays and its not on the contract then you can't (or shouldn't) charge. Its a space you could fill otherwise

**Blaze** · 30-05-2008, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Pipsqueak

THis is still wide open to interpretation though isn't it....

children who attend the cm setting beforeandafter school, - so if they only attend one session with you before OR after school they will still be classed as 5. So I suppose those who may only have holidays fulltime schoolies age 4 will be classed in the 4yr old bracket.

Think someone somewhere wants to do some serious thinking about the implications and wording of...

Oh this is doing my head in.... I am only going to take children up to the start of their reception year and from the end of their reception year/turn 5!! There settled

LOL...that's what i thought!!!!

justgoodfriends · 30-05-2008, 04:46 PM

Would just like to add that it's not just until they turn 5 that they count as an under 5 during the holidays, but until the end of the EYFS ie. until they start Year 1!!

justgoodfriends · 30-05-2008, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by sandy

As suggested by susi513 I e-mailed through teachernet yesterday and have received a reply as follows

"I would like to explain that where four and five yr olds attend full time school and only attend the cm setting before and after the school day, they can be counted as over five for the purposes of the ratio requirements."

AND THE IMPORTANT BIT ;

" These children may also be counted as over the age of 5 during the school holidays"

This was from a David Pettit, Public Communications Unit, DCSF.

I've printed it out for my records but will still be watching and waiting !!!

Sandy

I think the operative word here is MAY also be counted. If you look in the Statutory Guidance pg 51 it does state that if a child attends before/after school care than you can apply for a variation to have them in the holidays too. How many variations you would be allowed who knows?!

**manjay** · 30-05-2008, 04:57 PM

So glad I live in Wales!!! What a bloomin nightmare

**emler** · 30-05-2008, 05:03 PM

Glad I live in Scotland (despite the yearly inspections

)

Emler x

**miffy** · 30-05-2008, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by justgoodfriends

I think the operative word here is MAY also be counted. If you look in the Statutory Guidance pg 51 it does state that if a child attends before/after school care than you can apply for a variation to have them in the holidays too. How many variations you would be allowed who knows?!

All I can say then is Ofsted will be inundated with variation requests.

Hope common sense will prevail before it comes to that

Thanks to all those who've been trying to get answers from the powers that be

miffy xx