BIG PROBLEM Child Ratios p.51 - Ofsted now say

[Lou]

Right i am a little tired and confused but let me get this straight...

Ofsted inspect me in the hols...i have a child who is 5 and 3 under 5s but as 5 yr old is in reception, they give me an unsatisfactory as i am ove numbers??????

am i getting this right???

[crazybones]

That is the impression I am getting too Lou. If I dont get a variation for the hols then I would seriously have to think about giving notice to my lo because I would be holding a place for him just purely for holidays and as Will already takes a place then I cant afford to do that.

[Pipsqueak]

Reckon we will need to hide the 4yr old who is occasionally 5 depending upon school holidays. Get that cupboard under the stairs prepared quick

[wendywu]

No i will alter the birth dates on all the contracts and record forms and make every single one of them 12. Then i dont have to bother with Ofsted at all.

Today Matthew i will be.......5 but not 5.

[SimplyLucy]

I'm in such a panic about this. I have 2 school starters for this September. One of which is my own son. I won't be able to afford to run if I have to keep his place as an under 5 open until September 2009, it's just madness.

My other school starter, a mindee, will also be classes as an under 5 until September 2009. I think his mum will blow her top if i ask her to pay a retainer fee thoughout all the term times just so I can hold his space open until the holidays.

Guess I'll have to look for term time only mindees, but that won't work as I already have 6 under 8's on the books until 9am...........can't see a teacher agreeing to drop a child off to me at 9.15am.

If OFSTED do go ahead with this then I'll seriously have to think about giving up, however if I do I still won't be able to get a job because there is no chance I'll get another childminder to take on my DS as I have a feeling we'll all have to start turning down reception class children.

Hardly slept last night thinking about this, whole idea of me becoming a childminder was so that when my DS started school I'd beable to take more children on and start to pay my bills with my income...........now the goal posts have been moved by a whole year.

[Pipsqueak]

No, what we do is give our parents Ofsted's email/phone numbers and get Parent Power to contact Ofsted for an explanation....

[susi513]

Its been pointed out to me that its not Ofsted who make the decision but the Department for Children, Schools & Families.

There is a feedback link here:

[[http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/teachingandlearning/EYFS]]

[susi513]

http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/teachingandlearning/EYFS/

Sorry

[Pipsqueak]

http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/teachingandlearning/EYFS/

Sorry

Thanks emailed!

[Pipsqueak]

This is the reply I have received from Ofsted this morning

Thank you for your e-mail.

Children aged four attending ten early education sessions a week may be classed as children over five years for the purposes of the adult to child ratio. This also applies in school holidays and is referred to as rising 5s. Relates to national standard 2.4.

For example, if a childminder can care for six children under eight, of which three can be under five, a four-year-old that meets the above criteria can take the place of one of the children aged five and over. Therefore they could still have 3 further children under 5.

The child may be classed as a five-year-old throughout the time they are with the childminder. They do not revert to being a four-year-old during school holidays, for example.

These conditions also apply to the childminders own child/children.

As far as Ofsted are aware this will not be changing under the EYFS.

However should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.

Regards,

Briege McGroggan

Customer Service Advisor



so do we reckon Ofsted don't actually know themselves? So accordingy to Ofsted at this moment in time - they aren't aware of any changes to "rising 5" under the EYFS.

We all know the first bit - good to get clarification of what we already know

Are we any further forward now????

[Blaze]

I had this email from OFSTED too...but it's the same old story with OFSTED...depends on who you talk to...then who gets in trouble come inspection time!

[sarah707]

Some parts of Ofsted do know it's changed... so do NCMA who are apparently working on putting something together... BCMA are also aware of the changes according to a friend of mine who has been talking to them and advising childminders to contact parents and ask them to join in the lobby to get them changed...

It's not just about the extra money parents will be claiming or paying out to keep children's spaces open through holidays etc... it's also about parental choice being damaged as we are not available to look after their children... plus continuity of care as childminders make difficult decisions about giving notice... and of course our incomes are giong to go down during a time when the country is in credit crunch

[miffy]

So to answer Pip's question "are we any further forward now?"

NO NO NO NO NO

Nice try though - thanks Pip

miffy xx

[SimplyLucy]

I'm going to ring OFSTED now and act all thick just to get them to explain it to me!

[SimplyLucy]

Ok, I just rang OFSTED, did my I'm all thick thing!

Told them I'm sorting out places for Spetember and needed to know if my son who starts full time school in September but isn't 5 until February will be classed as a 5 year old.

I was told that YES he will be classed as a 5 year old (rising 5 she called it), once he has begun full time school and will be in the 5-8 brackets for the purpose of adult:child ratios.

I then went on to ask her which bracket he comes under in the holidays which she said "he'll stay in the 5-8 year old bracket thoughout the holidays once he has started full time school"

She then went on to give me the address that I'll need to send a letter to to get my certificate changed, she told me to send the letter off around the middle of August!


I'm happy with what she has told me and will be going along these guidelines until anyone stands in my front lounge and tells me otherwise!

[Blaze]

Well good luck to you Mum of 4...unfortunately you were quoted the rules as they are now..not as they will be under EYFS...& it's our responsibility to make SURE that EYFS is implemented correctly...so even OFSTED have told you this...you could get in trouble at inspection time!

[SimplyLucy]

To be honest I'm totally confused about the whole thing.

Is this the paragraph you are all talking about?

■■ of these six children, a maximum of three may be young children4, however where four- and
five-year-old children only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school
day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio;



If it is I'm failing to understand where it mentions that the said child would revert back to a 4 year old for the purpose of holiday times. I appreciate that is does make mention of a normal school day, but are we looking into this too much and just guessing that they mean a 4 year old at school must go back to being an under 5 in the holidays?

I'm really sorry if I'm being dim, but I'm in such a panic about this as I really do think I'll have to give up because I've been waited for my son to start school to increase my numbers.

[Blaze]

This was part of an email sent to me from the SCCMA (Surrey County Child Minding Association) re the EYFS revisions...hope it makes things clearer:

It does address our concerns regarding risk assessments for outings and non prescribed medicines such as calpol.
I would point out that if any childminder is caring for a child aged 4 that is starting full time school in September they may need to apply for a variation to their numbers as 4 years olds will only be counted as if they were five when attending before and after school and not in the holidays or in-service days.

Looks like OFSTED are going to be busy! I wouldn't give up ...just be mindful & start petitioning!

[Blaze]

The problem is further compounded because it is also the case that they are classed as under 5 until the September following their 5th birthday! So a child say who is 5 end of Sept 2008 would still be classed in holidays etc as under 5 untill 1st September 2009.

[sue32]

I have an e'mail from Ofsted and it state


Dear Sue,



Thank you for your e-mail.



The numbers of children that appear on your certificate are minded children. The maximum number of children that a childminder can be registered to look after is 6. As you have children of your own under the age of eight, they have been taken into account before your certificate was issued.



When your daughter/son starts full time school in September she will be classed as a rising five. However to be classed as rising fives children must attend 10 sessions of education a week; during the phase in period the children are not attending school full-time and therefore cannot be classed as rising fives during that time.



Should you wish to vary your certificate when your daughter/son starts school, please write to the Inspection Support Team. We require a signature on the variation letter and would request that you send an e-mail with a scanned attachment or send the letter in by ordinary mail to the following address:



Ofsted

National Business Unit

3rd Floor

Royal Exchange Buildings

St. Ann's Square

Manchester

M2 7LA



I hope this information is helpful to you.



However should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.



Regards




Owen Sidgwick
Customer Service Advisor

Ofsted - National Business Unit

Hope this helps
Sue