Childminders going over their numbers

[bindy]

Last Friday I took the children on an outin to the local farm. I was suprised at how many childminders I saw and spoke with, that were over their numbers! Not siblings either! Some had 5 under 5. Just wondering how common this is. I think a lot of childminders think, now they can take on as many as they want and do not understand they just can not. Then again, I did hear from one ofsted inspector, who said the biggest complaint Ofsted had against childminders, was going over numbers. Would be interested to know if any one knew of childminders doing this!

[Rick]

It is frustrating when us CMs keep to the rules and others flaunt them or are just ignorant of them and the majority get away with it. If I was a parent coming for a viewing to find CM already had 4 children I would say no thanks!
Occasionally a CM turns up at group with 4 but it is above board I think.

[blue bear]

I currently have four because parents have changed working patterns and I know of one other who has four once a week for an hour to accommodate parents change of hours but haven't met anyone else locally who has more than three. There are some you never see out and about can't say how many children they have

[muffins]

I dont know any. I however have 4 most days and on one day I have 5 for 1.5hrs as they overlap. I already had full numbers everyday then had my own baby in Dec, non of my mindees left and I already had the overlap as a variation before. I do sometimes feel watched when I go out with *extras* even though they are lagit, I worry about getting reported even though I'm in the right I dont want to feel scrutinised. I prefered the old way of doing variations as at least when I had them before Ofsted had it on paper in front of them, even though I follow the rules with the new way I feel like I'm just doing what I like!

[Rick]

I dont know any. I however have 4 most days and on one day I have 5 for 1.5hrs as they overlap. I already had full numbers everyday then had my own baby in Dec, non of my mindees left and I already had the overlap as a variation before. I do sometimes feel watched when I go out with *extras* even though they are lagit, I worry about getting reported even though I'm in the right I dont want to feel scrutinised. I prefered the old way of doing variations as at least when I had them before Ofsted had it on paper in front of them, even though I follow the rules with the new way I feel like I'm just doing what I like!

So long as you are happy you could explain it to Ofsted then that's all that matters. How do you find 5 LOs at once, I would have to seriously consider if I was asked to increase to 4!

[muffins]

So long as you are happy you could explain it to Ofsted then that's all that matters. How do you find 5 LOs at once, I would have to seriously consider if I was asked to increase to 4!

No problem really, 4.5yr old (mine), 3yr old (mine), 2 X 2.5yr olds (mindees) & 5mth old (mine), one mindee has been with me a year & the other 2yrs so they just slot right in to the routines. I collect my eldest & one mindee from pre-school by car at 1, once home and have sorted coats, shoes, bags etc, put my 3yr old to bed, made everyone drinks theres only usually half hour before one mindee goes home. In that half hour we usually just do free play (in & out doors), read, colouring or something simple as theres not much time to do much. It really helps that my baby is super good, never unhappy unless hungry or tired but does go to sleep without help, she loves having the older ones around.

Although I have 4 everyday, I dont actually HAVE 4 to hand much, my eldest goes to pre-sch 4 mornings (9-1), my 3yr old 2 mornings & 1 mindee for a morning, my eldest 2 go to the inlaws one afternoon a week, 4 days 2 have a 2hr afternoon nap and the other day 1, plus my 5mth old tends to have 3 X 1hr naps. My husband is registered as my assistant works shifts so is around 50% of the time to help out. Its busy but it works well

[bindy]

Why not speak with her first? I just think childminders have it tough enough with everyone else looking down at us with out childminders turning on each other. Of course if children were at risk that's a different matter.

[phoenix2010]

I wasnt aware you could have 5 under 5 , whatever the reason , I thought the limit was 4

not that I would want 4 very often , I recently did it for 2 mornings a week and that was enough for me , i was glad when it ended

[The Juggler]

Why not speak with her first? I just think childminders have it tough enough with everyone else looking down at us with out childminders turning on each other. Of course if children were at risk that's a different matter.

I do understand where you are coming from and a new childminder or one who I believed was unaware I WOULD say something to. However, unfortunately, the attitude of quite a few minders locally is "well if I go over here and there does it matter?" "Why does it matter?" They KNOW that it is wrong but do it anyway. If I raised it, they woudl say only it's only for a few months, etc, etc.

Then, they know I know they are doing it - I know they are overminding knowingly and so have to report it - but am then in the position that I can't report them because they will KNOW it was me

When you know a CM who doesn't cope well with 2 children playing up and how she talks to them, you worry about her having 5 under the age of 5. My job is first and foremost to worry about the children.

as I said I openly said to the ofsted person, "she may be doing it legimately but I don't know that, please just check it out"

They did, no action was taken, they didn't even visit her but she stopped overminding.

[Simona]

Crickey...almost one year on from the introduction of the EYFS 12 we are still very unsure and debating what is the legitimate number to be in our care??
Wonder what will happen when Truss announces the new ratio for cms???

I think that some cms have sort of abused the system pretending not to understand...while others I am sure genuinely do not bother to read or find out, many cms are worried about others going over numbers but they do nothing about it...it is not as clear as should be

There have been plenty of cases where cms have stated publicly they have had an increase since Sept 12 and still do, there are LAs worried but what is their action and we are not sure either if we would report someone with 5 under 5....all very tricky in my view.

One part of the cynical me thinks they EYFS 12 was written that way to 'trial' the higher ratios for cms...unclear and very much open to interpretation
The other cynical me says the EYFS may disappear during August to be reborn with a new ratio imbedded in its pages and off we go again to download it and start debating again!!

[Simona]

The problem with the present EYFS and its 'exceptional circumstances' is that it is open to individual interpretation and lacks any form of accountability
The exceptional circumstances are also meant to be short time but I have read many times of cms who have had more children since the EYFS came out last Sept...is that short term?

Much has been written on how to interpret it but in the end the EYFS is clear that, as long as cms DO NOT EXCEED 6 under 8, they can increase their numbers
Those children may not have been siblings but the parents may have asked for extra days which would count as continuity of care...someone more expert can clarify

My worry about this is that some cms are full and doing well, especially those who have recently employed an assistant... while others are struggling with not many children

I have nothing against looking after the extra odd one on some days and also overlapping for a few hours but I worry if this is going to cause a problem of sustainability for cms in future ?

[Daftbat]

The problem with the present EYFS and its 'exceptional circumstances' is that it is open to individual interpretation and lacks any form of accountability
The exceptional circumstances are also meant to be short time but I have read many times of cms who have had more children since the EYFS came out last Sept...is that short term?

Much has been written on how to interpret it but in the end the EYFS is clear that, as long as cms DO NOT EXCEED 6 under 8, they can increase their numbers
Those children may not have been siblings but the parents may have asked for extra days which would count as continuity of care...someone more expert can clarify

My worry about this is that some cms are full and doing well, especially those who have recently employed an assistant... while others are struggling with not many children

I have nothing against looking after the extra odd one on some days and also overlapping for a few hours but I worry if this is going to cause a problem of sustainability for cms in future ?

Sorry but this is NOT what the new EYFS states. If you read the document "The numbers and ages of children that providers on the early years and childcare registers may care for" Issued July 2012 for instatement Sept 2012 it states on page 5 section 7 " EYFS also allows childminders to care for more children in the early years age group through an overarching exceptional circumstances statement. We will normally interpret an exceptional circumstance as relating to the continuity of care for children and/or where sibling children are not babies. These are times when it may be in children's best interests to be with their brothers and sisters whoa re already with a childminder, or to remain with the same childminder where circumstances may change the number of children the childminder can care for, such as a parent extending their working hours. This type of arrangement would end when either the parent adjusted their hours or the child left the childminders care. IT DOES NOT GIVE PERMISSION TO OPERATE WITH MORE CHILDREN IN THE EARLY YEARS AGE GROUP AT ALL TIMES"

Therefore the ratios are the same as before Sept 2012 but we just don't need to get a variation. The total number under 5yrs of age should NOT exceed 4 children unless there has been express permission given by Ofsted.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Some childminders in my area read the EYFS to say that you can have an extra if you own children was under 5. They all took on an extra one..

Wouldn't want more than 4 on my own (I love 3 and is my preferred number)

[phoenix2010]

When the new certificates came through some childminders thought that restrictions no longer applied

a friend recently rang me and said she was confused and worried as she had 5 under 5 that day , and she hadnt even counted her 3 year old because he was at nursery

She had a 6 year old at school that day and was going to collect 2 more after school

so she had in total 9 children under 8 , 6 of which were under 5 , now I have no idea how on earth she did the school run that day

I assume she asked a friend for help , but seriously are people really that thick

I put her straight and she assures me its now sorted but I cant confirm it , she had taken 3 under 5s on as new business , so it wasnt even continuity of care

My question is , why arent these childminders being reminded of the ratios , surely its drummed into us when we register , and secondly why arent parents questioning a house full of kids , she said she was run ragged and couldnt cope , well dont be so greedy then and learn to say No

there are plenty of minders struggling to fill spaces

[Simona]

I agree with Rick_Knight ...as long as you are happy do not worry
This new system has also created a fear that others may be snooping, criticising or counting our children every time we go out...even reporting cms they feel are over their numbers....very unhealthy really and yet the system could be made accountable in a very simple way by tweaking a few things if the DfE wanted to.

[lozzy23]

I have 4 under 5's for four days a week. I had an Ofsted variation granted last July for a new baby sibling of an existing LO.

I do feel that people have been head counting and some have made comments and I suppose I feel better saying Ofsted granted me the variation. The thing I find strange is variations are supposed to be for the short term and yet with the ages of the children I look after the variation was always going to be for a year until the two oldest LO's went to school.

[Simona]

I am sorry Daftbat...I had the EYFS in front of me and have it now...3.40 page 21 states clearly 'the total number of children under 8 must not exceed 6'
Maybe I interpret it differently from you ?

I also agree with the statement that many cms have vacancies they cannot fill ...many in my area are truly worried while others seem constantly full

[bindy]

Some places the demand for childcare is high and other places not, it all depends where you live. I have friends who live in the North unable to full their spaces but I live in the South East, so me not taking on more children will not help them!. In my area most childminders, the ones I know are full. I took on an assistant because demand for spaces were high, all went within 2 weeks of taking on an assistant. Still get lots of interest but able to pass them on to others.

Yes you are right the childminders may have had reason to have 5 under 5, never thought of that!! Anyway the children were having great fun the minders very able to care, watch and manage!

[Mouse]

If some of the children are 4, but in full time school, you could actually have 6 under 5s (3 pre-school children & 3 school children)

[bindy]

If some of the children are 4, but in full time school, you could actually have 6 under 5s (3 pre-school children & 3 school children)

So true! It's like how many conbinations one can do with under 5's but these children were babies/toddlers!