Paying your children for helping?

**fionamadcat** · 03-03-2012, 01:14 PM

I read on another thread that you can claim if you pay your children for helping you do childminding relating things is this only if they are teenagers? My daughter is 8 but she does allsorts to help me, she cleans and tidies the playroom, plays with the little 1's etc, I give her a couple of pounds a week pocket money for doing this. Can this be put through as an expense or would I be pushing my luck!!!

**rickysmiths** · 03-03-2012, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by fionamadcat

I read on another thread that you can claim if you pay your children for helping you do childminding relating things is this only if they are teenagers? My daughter is 8 but she does allsorts to help me, she cleans and tidies the playroom, plays with the little 1's etc, I give her a couple of pounds a week pocket money for doing this. Can this be put through as an expense or would I be pushing my luck!!!

If you are giving her this amount solely because she is helping you then yes you can put it through your books as an expense.

**Chatterbox Childcare** · 04-03-2012, 04:33 PM

No you cannot. Sorry Ricky but if you read Mr A's post about this it clearly states in law that the child must be 13 and you have to have your local authority approval

I am not saying that you cannot pay an 8 year old but it isn't an expense

**Heaven Scent** · 04-03-2012, 09:31 PM

What do you have to ask your local authority for - I mean what's it called????

**MrAnchovy** · 05-03-2012, 01:32 AM

An employment permit or work permit.

**NI MINDER** · 05-03-2012, 08:24 AM

You wound a bit like me - my own kids know that if they are helpful with the mindees that there is an extra treat at the weekend -whether its a magazine or something they have been after or maybe couple extra pounds pocket money. Would never have thought of putting through books though.

**Milli147** · 05-03-2012, 09:00 AM

I do this in the holidays, my own two help out loads and the mindees like having them around, so I 'pay' them at the end of the week.
I never want them to go back to school afterwards - I start thinking I can't do it on my own!!!

**rickysmiths** · 05-03-2012, 09:35 AM

Well I have to contradict both on this. If you are paying a very small some as pocket money for help you do not need neither a Permit from your local authority. You a are not in any sense of the word employing your child and you can put a small amount through if the task is soley for help with your childminding business.

This permit is intended to protect young people who take on paper rounds or Saturday or similar part time paid employment They are signed by the employer, school and the parents so all parties are aware of the hours the young person is employed because there are strict rules covering they days and times young people still in full time education can work. Debbie it is different if they are Registered as your Assistant because in a sense you are then Employing them because they are covered by your Employees insurance. Giving a child a couple of pounds pocket money to help with a specific task in relation to your childminding, with the greatest respect is not employment. If this was the case all parents who ask for chores to be done before the payment of their childrens pocket money should all have a Permit from their local authority which is not the case.

For this level of help it is my understanding you do not need a permit. The best thing to do would be to ring your local authority and ask them if you need one to pay your children pocket money for small tasks carried out in the home.

It was at my accountants recommendation I did this and I know Debbie you have come on in the past and said this kind of small payment can be put through. This is why I choose to go to an accountant for advise with regard to my accounts. She is a very experienced and highly regarded professional who specialises in small self employed businesses so why would I have any reason to doubt her recommendations? I shall continue to put through the £10pw that I currently do until she advises me otherwise.

**rickysmiths** · 05-03-2012, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by NI MINDER

You wound a bit like me - my own kids know that if they are helpful with the mindees that there is an extra treat at the weekend -whether its a magazine or something they have been after or maybe couple extra pounds pocket money. Would never have thought of putting through books though.

Yes but you see you can put a small amount though on your expenses. £2pw for example is £104 per year.

My accountant put through £1200 on my accounts on my last tax return for all the help my teenagers give me in a week on average. This includes going on some outing in the holidays with mindees that I would not be able to do on my own and them being with me for a whole day.

**MAWI** · 05-03-2012, 10:12 AM

My teenage daughter also has a work permit as she helps me most afternoons with tidying and clearing away, sorting toys, printing off worksheets for older children etc.. . I pay her between £10 and £20(school holidays)a week. This is because if she didn't help out we would probably not eat until 8pm or later.

It was easy to gain the work permit from the council, i had a visit from the childrens education officer to my house and was asked a few questions as to what she would be doing, I had to Do a RA and have employers liability, then just needed school to sign it and thats it! when permit came back it stated Nursery assistant, lol.!!

My ten year old is also a brilliant help, but I can't pay her until she is 13. She gets rewarded with Lego instead.

**Chatterbox Childcare** · 05-03-2012, 01:03 PM

You could buy something for your own children as a reward and make this an expense

Ricky yours and mine are teenagers and they do need a work permit even for 1 hour per week. It is free with my LA and came within 2 days of application

**MrAnchovy** · 05-03-2012, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by rickysmiths

You a are not in any sense of the word employing your child and you can put a small amount through if the task is soley for help with your childminding business.

I don't think that you can have it both ways - either you are paying someone to do something for your business, in which case they are employed by you and the cost is an allowable expense, or they are not employed and you can't claim.

If I were a tax tribunal I would want to see a significant amount of evidence to back up a claim that annual payments of £1,200 to family members were genuine employment: not having a work permit is not going to help that.

**mama2three** · 05-03-2012, 01:47 PM

My teens are 17 and 18. If I 'employ' them to help a few hours a week are there tax/NI/pension implications also? Thankyou

**MrAnchovy** · 05-03-2012, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by mama2three

My teens are 17 and 18. If I 'employ' them to help a few hours a week are there tax/NI/pension implications also? Thankyou

As long as they don't have any other job, you can pay them up to £102 a week each before you have to register with HMRC as an employer and operate PAYE.

If they do have another job paying less than the personal allowance (currently £7,475), HMRC may well allow you not to operate PAYE if you contact them.

There are currently no pension obligations for employers: when these do come in (phased in between now and 2016, with small employers coming at the end), these will only apply for employees over 22 years old earning more than the personal allowance.

**rickysmiths** · 05-03-2012, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by MrAnchovy

I don't think that you can have it both ways - either you are paying someone to do something for your business, in which case they are employed by you and the cost is an allowable expense, or they are not employed and you can't claim.

If I were a tax tribunal I would want to see a significant amount of evidence to back up a claim that annual payments of £1,200 to family members were genuine employment: not having a work permit is not going to help that.

Where I am you only need a work permit if you are employed and I have checked (I'm not completely stupid) I do not need a work permit to give my child a small amount of pocket money for helping me on an irregular basis this is not considered employment and in fact they thought it was hilarious that I had even rung to ask considering the nature and amount of hours of the help and level of 'pay'.

Though I know the regulations are different in different counties so everyone must check for themselves.

The point is they are not payment of wages for an employed position they are pocket money level payments for occasional help here and there which add up over the year. It was my accountant who suggested this, she knows my family and children well, for over 30 years in fact, and I trust her professional advise completely.

**rickysmiths** · 05-03-2012, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by mama2three

My teens are 17 and 18. If I 'employ' them to help a few hours a week are there tax/NI/pension implications also? Thankyou

Only if they earn over their tax allowance. If they did then it would have an effect. Neither of mine are currently employed anywhere else and as soon as they are they won't have the same time to help me anyway so there won't be any pocket money payments to them anyway.

t looks like my son will be earning much more babysitting this year than what pocket money he gets from me, if things continue the way they have in Jan and Feb. I don't know any teenager at school whole declares their babysitting money?

**rickysmiths** · 05-03-2012, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Chatterbox Childcare

You could buy something for your own children as a reward and make this an expense

Ricky yours and mine are teenagers and they do need a work permit even for 1 hour per week. It is free with my LA and came within 2 days of application

No I have checked in our county you do not.

**MrAnchovy** · 05-03-2012, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by rickysmiths

You a are not in any sense of the word employing your child.

Here is one Local Authority's (West Sussex) definition of "employment" (note that employment of children is governed by Local Authorities in the same way as their education etc. so different rules apply in different places):

"employment" includes assistance in any trade or occupation which is carried on for profit, whether or not payment or other reward is received for that assistance

**rickysmiths** · 05-03-2012, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by MrAnchovy

Here is one Local Authority's (West Sussex) definition of "employment" (note that employment of children is governed by Local Authorities in the same way as their education etc. so different rules apply in different places):

For goodness sake I don't disbelieve you at all, but it is different in different areas as you quote says, and as I have found when talking to my sister who lives in Kent and my SIL who lives in Bedford and our 6 children are all of a similar age.

I am not engaging in illicit slave labour!

**rosebud** · 05-03-2012, 04:31 PM

[QUOTE=rickysmiths;1065588]For goodness sake I don't disbelieve you at all, but it is different in different areas as you quote says, and as I have found when talking to my sister who lives in Kent and my SIL who lives in Bedford and our 6 children are all of a similar age.

I am not engaging in illicit slave labour![/QUOTE]