Buying a minibus

[mum2two]

We are looking at getting a 17 seater. Obviously this will be used for mainly childminding. I know there will be the odd occasion that we will use it personally for ferrying family about during the summer - but not very often.

After reading previous posts, I realise I can claim a % each year on my accounts. Then what happens with mileage, insurance etc...???

Can I still claim the 40p per mile I go, or do I have to keep reciepts & work out? Also my insurance would be higher than a 'normal' car. Can I claim the difference, as it's for work???

Really confused right now!

x

[jumpinjen]

If it is solely for work then you may be able to claim the whole lot, MOT, Tax, service, petrol etc, perhaps someone more experienced can advise you of the appropriate leaflet from the HMRC. If you do put it through the business though, purchase cost and all, then it is considered an asset of the business and if you sell then the price paid to you would have to be logged as income again, does that make sense?

Sounds huge..... do you have that many kids at once?

jen x

[aly]

if you are claiming the cost of the car then you cannot claim for mileage...it is one way or the other.

[Twinkles]

Don't mean to stick my nose in but I assume you know about all the legislation attached to using a minibus for childminding ?

http://www.minibuswebsite.com/htm/o_licencing.htm

[rickysmiths]

I was just about to say the same. Personally I wouldn't go there. Do you co-mind or have a large family of your own? It seems a very large for childminding. Our local afterschool club doesn't use anything bigger than a 7-seater.

If you have that many children how are you insured because NCMA and MM only go to a max of 12 children? You would most likely need planning permission for your home as well. Sorry didn't mean to open a can of worms. Never heard of a cm with a 17 seater.

[miss mopple]

2 words- you nutters

Only kidding. Have you asked D about it? Not sure how she's done it but may be worth picking her brains

[Carls]

OMG I own a transporter which has 9 seats. I read your link and found this

"Minibus" - a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 but not more than 16 seated passengers in addition to the driver.

From that am I ok! Its not clssed as a mini bus even though a lot of insurance companies wont insure me!

[gazanne]

OMG I own a transporter which has 9 seats. I read your link and found this

"Minibus" - a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 but not more than 16 seated passengers in addition to the driver.

From that am I ok! Its not clssed as a mini bus even though a lot of insurance companies wont insure me!

I had that problem insurance people do not like mini buses filled with children. I only have 8 seats but my insurance went from £350 to £950

[Chatterbox Childcare]

To answer your questions, you can either claim .40p per mile (plus .05p for every adult with you per mile) OR claim a percentage of all your costs i.e. service, mot, tax, insurance, petrol, interest etc...

You need to keep full accounts for the vehicle and you can claim a percentage of the car cost on a depreciating level (capital expenditure)

I wonder also why such a large vehicle?

[flora]

You cannot use anything for Childminindg with more than nine seats without having a PSV liscence.

As you get paid to have the children they class this "loosley" as hire or reward.

It is an enormous responsibility to do this and the ongoing maintainance checks etc that need to be done to conform with all the rules.

Personally I would not go there unless I had to

[mum2two]

We have up to 12 children during the holidays (in our own), as both me & hubby childmind together. We are insured through MM, and they cover up to 15 children.

I know of 2 other childminders locally who have minibusses. 1 has a 12 seater, and the other are a husband & wife team & have a 17 seater also. I looked at the link & then spoke to them, and neither of them have registered. (One I know would have looked into it closely like me too)

I think that is more for nurseries, where minibusses are purchased solely for the use of the company (which means I have answered my own original question!)

From reading numerous sites, it would seem the term 'for hire or reward' (which is what it all comes down to) is very vauge term. In the end, I came across something on the Dept for transport site (I think) which says something along the lines of 'hire or reward can be paid directly or indirectly. Indirectly could be through membership fees, concert tickets, or school fees. But basically where if someone hadn't paid those fees, we wouldn't carry them'

Well, in my case that is not right. For one, we have our own children - they haven't paid. Plus, (I know - and not wanting to go into it) but I mind a family, a friend of mine, who I do not charge, nor ever have, for looking after the eldest one. DD's best friend & in all honesty, keeps DD out my way! So she would be in it & not have paid me anything. Plus, in the past, if I've had spaces and another cm hasn't had enough seats in her car, then we've taken one of her own children in our car, so would continue this with the minibus too. Therefore, do not fall into that clause.

I spoke to the insurance company too, and explained, and he said, as it is our private car, as long as we have business use on it, then that is fine. He checked the quote, and said that was on there, as well as us being childminders, so it was all fine.

DVLA were useless, and told me to seek legal advice, as they couldn't advise me... VOSA aren't open until monday...

But from reading other sites, like I said, the commercial side of it seems to link more to nurseries, as it said if you use cars, then they have to be registered as taxi's, and the driver has to hold a taxi licence too. Therefore, to me, if childminders have to follow the same commercial routes for minibusses as nurseries, then we would have to for cars too, yet it said childminders were exepmt, as long as business use cover.

Still confused a bit, but spent all day looking at it & speaking to the companies that are open... Plus, if the insurers are happy to insure us based on the info we've given, then they must be right???

xx

[Chatterbox Childcare]

We have up to 12 children during the holidays (in our own), as both me & hubby childmind together. We are insured through MM, and they cover up to 15 children.

I know of 2 other childminders locally who have minibusses. 1 has a 12 seater, and the other are a husband & wife team & have a 17 seater also. I looked at the link & then spoke to them, and neither of them have registered. (One I know would have looked into it closely like me too)

I think that is more for nurseries, where minibusses are purchased solely for the use of the company (which means I have answered my own original question!)

From reading numerous sites, it would seem the term 'for hire or reward' (which is what it all comes down to) is very vauge term. In the end, I came across something on the Dept for transport site (I think) which says something along the lines of 'hire or reward can be paid directly or indirectly. Indirectly could be through membership fees, concert tickets, or school fees. But basically where if someone hadn't paid those fees, we wouldn't carry them'

Well, in my case that is not right. For one, we have our own children - they haven't paid. Plus, (I know - and not wanting to go into it) but I mind a family, a friend of mine, who I do not charge, nor ever have, for looking after the eldest one. DD's best friend & in all honesty, keeps DD out my way! So she would be in it & not have paid me anything. Plus, in the past, if I've had spaces and another cm hasn't had enough seats in her car, then we've taken one of her own children in our car, so would continue this with the minibus too. Therefore, do not fall into that clause.

I spoke to the insurance company too, and explained, and he said, as it is our private car, as long as we have business use on it, then that is fine. He checked the quote, and said that was on there, as well as us being childminders, so it was all fine.

DVLA were useless, and told me to seek legal advice, as they couldn't advise me... VOSA aren't open until monday...

But from reading other sites, like I said, the commercial side of it seems to link more to nurseries, as it said if you use cars, then they have to be registered as taxi's, and the driver has to hold a taxi licence too. Therefore, to me, if childminders have to follow the same commercial routes for minibusses as nurseries, then we would have to for cars too, yet it said childminders were exepmt, as long as business use cover.

Still confused a bit, but spent all day looking at it & speaking to the companies that are open... Plus, if the insurers are happy to insure us based on the info we've given, then they must be right???

xx

There was a large write up and big debate in the Who Minds that NCMA put out each quarter and I cannot remember the outcome. I would contact MM if they are your legal representation and ask for all your questions to be answered in writing and that way you are covered.

[Twinkles]

There was a large write up and big debate in the Who Minds that NCMA put out each quarter and I cannot remember the outcome. I would contact MM if they are your legal representation and ask for all your questions to be answered in writing and that way you are covered.

Good idea. I would be very interested in the outcome as DH and I mind together too.
Would be good if you would share what you find

[mum2two]

I will be calling MM on Mon. Gutted they aren't open today! Everything I read just relates to nurseries, which work differently to us anyway....

I'm just going by the info I've found, and I can argue it!

What counts as payment?
Any sort of payment which gives a person a right to be carried in a vehicle counts, whether or not a profit is made. This is known as 'hire or reward'. It could be money paid by the passenger, or on their behalf, directly or indirectly. Examples of indirect payments include:

a club membership subscription
paying for a bed in a hotel
school fees
buying a concert ticket with travel included
any other situation where someone who had not paid for a particular service would therefore not have a right to be carried

Like I said, I would carry people who haven't paid me anything, ie my own children, and little girl I look after for free, plus anyone else if they needed it!

Therefore, we cannot fall into the PSV licence category in my eyes... If I'm told I carry for 'hire or reward' then surely this effects our normal travel in cars too, as nurseries, and we would all have to register as taxis and get our cars MOT'd every 3 months... It's either one way (like it is now, and we don't carry for reward therefore business cover fine), or the other, and we all have to take taxi tests & fork out £100's extra every year...????

xx

[Twinkles]

Have found this ....


http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereven...d_no_insurance

[mum2two]

I did come across that. Still, it contradicts the 'for hire & reward' aspect that I face.

I am going to call MM legal team on Monday, as although we are a 'for profit organisation' as it were, looking into all the legalities of registering as a commercial vehicle, we have to provide bank statements etc to prove that we have enough money available to maintain the vehicle.

A childminder operates completley differently to a Nursery, as they are there to make an end of year profit. We live month by month, whether the parents pay us, lose their job etc, and deal with life as it happens, inc cars needing repair. (My current car needs about £900... which I don't have just sat in the back to do straight away!)

Again, why do not have to prove we can have the money to keep our cars in order. It all just seems wrong. We have public liability, and the insurers are happy to insure us. I am not charging the parents any more because we have a minibus - is actual fact it would be cheaper for us to run than 2 cars!

Why is everything so complicated. I just want to look after children, and be able to take them out to socialise with other children & minders...

I will argue my case with all the authorities!!!!

xx

[Twinkles]

I did come across that. Still, it contradicts the 'for hire & reward' aspect that I face.

I am going to call MM legal team on Monday, as although we are a 'for profit organisation' as it were, looking into all the legalities of registering as a commercial vehicle, we have to provide bank statements etc to prove that we have enough money available to maintain the vehicle.

A childminder operates completley differently to a Nursery, as they are there to make an end of year profit. We live month by month, whether the parents pay us, lose their job etc, and deal with life as it happens, inc cars needing repair. (My current car needs about £900... which I don't have just sat in the back to do straight away!)

Again, why do not have to prove we can have the money to keep our cars in order. It all just seems wrong. We have public liability, and the insurers are happy to insure us. I am not charging the parents any more because we have a minibus - is actual fact it would be cheaper for us to run than 2 cars!

Why is everything so complicated. I just want to look after children, and be able to take them out to socialise with other children & minders...

I will argue my case with all the authorities!!!!

xx

I agree. I would like a minibus too which is why I'm so interested.

I hope I'm not coming across as pedantic. I want this too !!

[rickysmiths]

[QUOTE=mum2two;888736]I did come across that. Still, it contradicts the 'for hire & reward' aspect that I face.

I am going to call MM legal team on Monday, as although we are a 'for profit organisation' as it were, looking into all the legalities of registering as a commercial vehicle, we have to provide bank statements etc to prove that we have enough money available to maintain the vehicle.

A childminder operates completley differently to a Nursery, as they are there to make an end of year profit. We live month by month, whether the parents pay us, lose their job etc, and deal with life as it happens, inc cars needing repair. (My current car needs about £900... which I don't have just sat in the back to do straight away!)

Again, why do not have to prove we can have the money to keep our cars in order. It all just seems wrong. We have public liability, and the insurers are happy to insure us. I am not charging the parents any more because we have a minibus - is actual fact it would be cheaper for us to run than 2 cars!

Why is everything so complicated. I just want to look after children, and be able to take them out to socialise with other children & minders...

I will argue my case with all the authorities!!!!


I'm sorry but this may be the way you run your childminding business but it is definately not the way I or a lot of others do. I work long hours and very hard and I most definately make a profit because I need and have to pay to maintain my car and have a slush fund incase it goes wrong, and pay bills, have the odd holiday, start supporting dd at Uni this year. I would be stupid to be working 50+hrs a week if I didn't I'm not a chariety.

With the greatest of respect if you can't afford to fix your car how an earth are you going to afford to buy and run a mini bus? Especially as you are implying that you will actually not be using it for any paying mindees, though the one who isn't paid for could be considered as you are actually giving a discount to the family by not charging .

You will probably have to take an additional driving test in order to be fully insured as well. If you have Cat D1 and D1E on your licience then you may not have to take an extra test but it is unlikely you will have then if you passed your test later than the late 80s or early 90s.

If as you imply you will only be carrying children who are not paying anything then why have business insurance anyway? Also if this is the case then you % for tax purposes must be minimal. You can't have it both ways.

I Personally think you are treading on very thin ice. Please, please take some professional advise and be 100% clear who you will be transporting, when and the fact that I suspect they they indeed will be paying you. Your fees include transporting children be it to school/nursery or on trips. If you are not clear, muddy the waters and get insurance what will you do if the worst happens, there is an accident and they refuse cover?


I

[mum2two]

No - I really appreciate your opinion. Sometimes I feel like I'm just looking for the answer I want -(although I usually am!!!)

Still searching, and this thread http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/fo...ad.php?t=29951 came up on google.

I will add this to my argument with the DFT when I call them on Monday. The poster (a few posts down) spoke to insurance companies, and they were told if charged an hourly fee, then they weren't charging for travel, so class 1 was fine. If they charged extra for travel, then they needed class 3, and were infact classed as a taxi.

Again, it's either an overall rule that we 'charge' so have to operate as taxis, as well as registering minibusses, or we don't 'charge' and cars are ok - therefore exepmt when in a minibus too!

You are just helping me get my case straight for when I speak to the DFT, and they come out with the arguments you have. I already have the answer!!

x

[mum2two]

@ Rickysmiths. I work as I would any other job. I earn my money, and pay my bills, save for tax, and holidays, do my house up, take my kids out, pay for clubs etc...

I have not said I do not earn anything, or not make a profit. Of course I do, or it would be pointless doing it. My argument is that chilldminders operate, and have different 'rules' than other businesses, (accounts wise) so didn't know if this was the case in this instance too.

I have not brought the minibus yet, and I am mearly asking this question, and researching all the information available to me before making that decision. I do not want to get myself into trouble, or endanger the children.

Luckily for you, you are able to save, and have a contingency. I do not... I know other childminders too who struggle, more than me, and literally live until the next pay day. Most people working live month to month, whether childminding or not.

I am able to buy a minibus, by selling my car, although really the ins & outs of my finances are irrelevant! Yes, of course we make a profit - but I'm not disclosing how I spend my disposable income!

I have never implied I will only be carrying non paying children, I mearly stated that in order to be classed as a PSV, then you will only carry people who have paid for my service. This is not the case. If needed I would carry another childminders own child, if they didn't have enough space in their car, therefore, how can we fall into the 'only carrying clients who pay for the service'...

But as you state, I am well aware it's all a 'grey area' hence me asking. None of the authorities are open until Monday, when I will know for sure - BEFORE I buy a minibus.

I have done nothing wrong, just asking for information...