Buying a minibus

[mum2two]

No, from what I have read here I don't think they have. The legal advice service provided by MM have said that you need to be registered to comply with the regulations for registration of Private Hire Vehicles, the insurance team have said that you don't need to be registered to comply with the requirements of the insurance they provide.

This is what confuses me then. As how would we stand if we were taken to court. Legally I'm being told we shouldn't be drving children unless registered as a taxi.

So if we make a claim, that goes to court, surely the insurers will then just say, 'Sorry - you weren't driving within regulations, therefore, the insurance is invalid.' I know insurance companies will find any excuse of getting out of paying out money if the can.

As before I found out about this, minibus direct and MM insurers have both advised that we are fine to drive a minibus, and they quoted insurance prices saying business use is fine etc. Yet the legal people are telling me otherwise.

Who do we go by????

[Carpet Monkeys]

When I spoke to my insurance company the 'for hire or reward' was if the passengers were paying for you transporting them from point a to point b, ie a taxi, but as I was getting paid for caring for the children and not transporting them it was ok!

[mum2two]

See, that's my argument for driving a minibus. We can't be classed as not transporting for hire or reward when we're in a car, but get a minibus, and suddenly we are getting 'reward' indirectly in our fees.

When I challenged this, that's when I was told it's the same for both cars & minibuses... We are indirectly recieving a fee for driving them, therefore we need to be registered appropriatley!!

x

[MrAnchovy]

As how would we stand if we were taken to court.

If you are driving a minibus without a PCV license you will have a problem, like the woman in the report linked to earlier in this thread.

If you are driving a minibus without an operators license you may have a problem, but I would have thought that VOSA would only take you to court if you continued to operate the minibus and refused to apply for a license.

Vehicles operated for hire or reward with 8 or fewer passenger seats are regulated by local authorities in accordance with their own by-laws. I would say that the chance of them trying to enforce these by-laws against a childminder is pretty thin.

Of course this is a big mess, and it shouldn't have happened. NCMA exists to represent childminders' interests: what do they have to say about it?

So if we make a claim, that goes to court, surely the insurers will then just say, 'Sorry - you weren't driving within regulations, therefore, the insurance is invalid.'

Why do you think they could do that? They can't say you were speeding/drunk/on the phone/your tax or MOT has run out etc. so your insurance is 'invalid' so why do you think that this would be different? Provided your insurance covers you for the use of the vehicle (and MM insurance specifically states it covers business use in connection with child care) and you don't breach any specific conditions in the policy, they must pay out.

[MrAnchovy]

See, that's my argument for driving a minibus. We can't be classed as not transporting for hire or reward when we're in a car, but get a minibus, and suddenly we are getting 'reward' indirectly in our fees.

But that is exactly what the situation is! When you are driving a minibus you are regulated by the Vehicle & Operator Services Agency, when you drive a car you aren't.

It's exactly like Ofsted regulating childcare - Under 8s for more than 2 hours a day you have to jump through loads of hoops, otherwise you don't.

[MrAnchovy]

Actually having checked the legislation, I think that the legal help line advice from MM quoted here may be incorrect. I don't think that Local Authorities have any right or duty to regulate childminders' cars. See the extract from the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981

1 Definition of "public service vehicle"

(1)Subject to the provisions of this section, in this Act "public service vehicle" means a motor vehicle (other than a tramcar) which—

(a)being a vehicle adapted to carry more than eight passengers, is used for carrying passengers for hire or reward; or

(b)being a vehicle not so adapted, is used for carrying passengers for hire or reward at separate fares in the course of a business of carrying passengers.

Whether or not they are carrying passengers for "hire or reward", childminders do not in general charge separate fares, and they are in the business of child care, not passenger carrying, so they are not subject to PSV regulation in vehicles with up to eight passenger seats.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Not sure if this helps or hinders but another minder in my area just brought a 9 seater so I asked her. This was her reply:

Debbie

Just done some checks, apparently if you are running a childcare business you need to have a D1 category on your driving licence, which I do have (this confirms what I thought was correct and had previously checked) Tests passed in certain years automatically covered the driver to drive a D1 category vehicle. Luckily I took my test in 1994 and this covered me. Just double checked my licence and it clearly stated D1 category. Below is info for a quick online check to see if you need anything specific to drive a business/commercial minibus.

http://www.minibuswebsite.com/htm/legally_drive_a.htm


Does it muddy the waters??

Thought the part about when you took your licence put a new slant on it

[jumpinjen]

Not sure if this helps or hinders but another minder in my area just brought a 9 seater so I asked her. This was her reply:

Debbie

Just done some checks, apparently if you are running a childcare business you need to have a D1 category on your driving licence, which I do have (this confirms what I thought was correct and had previously checked) Tests passed in certain years automatically covered the driver to drive a D1 category vehicle. Luckily I took my test in 1994 and this covered me. Just double checked my licence and it clearly stated D1 category. Below is info for a quick online check to see if you need anything specific to drive a business/commercial minibus.

http://www.minibuswebsite.com/htm/legally_drive_a.htm


Does it muddy the waters?? Thought the part about when you took your licence put a new slant on it

they couldn't really get any muddier Debbie could they?

[mum2two]

You have D1 on your licence as long as it's still the paper one. If you renew it for a photo one, then according to the DVLA website, you lose it, and have to apply/re-test as if a later licence. Seems silly to take it away from you after you've had it for x amount of years.

x

[mum2two]

http://www.minibuswebsite.com/htm/legally_drive_a.htm

That's the website that brought all this to my attention Debbie.

If you read through it, is says we need a operators licence - a restricted one, but still extra money & regulations o adhere too... There's even a little 'questionairre' type thing, which says the same thing, hence why I ended up calling VOSA.
x

[aly]

You have D1 on your licence as long as it's still the paper one. If you renew it for a photo one, then according to the DVLA website, you lose it, and have to apply/re-test as if a later licence. Seems silly to take it away from you after you've had it for x amount of years.

x

thats not true as I have the photo one and it states on there d1. I havent renewed for quite a few years either....I passed when I was 17 am no {nearly}34, only had the photo one as I moved.

[rickysmiths]

You have D1 on your licence as long as it's still the paper one. If you renew it for a photo one, then according to the DVLA website, you lose it, and have to apply/re-test as if a later licence. Seems silly to take it away from you after you've had it for x amount of years.

x

Not true I'm afraid!

I changed from a paper licence to a Photo one in 2007 when we moved. Passed my test in May 1973 (Good grief thats nearly 38 years ago ). I still have D1 and D1E on my licence.

[lozjim]

You cannot use anything for Childminindg with more than nine seats without having a PSV liscence.

As you get paid to have the children they class this "loosley" as hire or reward.

It is an enormous responsibility to do this and the ongoing maintainance checks etc that need to be done to conform with all the rules.

Personally I would not go there unless I had to

Hi, i looked into this recently, I contacted NCMA and DVLA and found out that it is not for hire and reward because we are paid to do our job and part of our job is to transport the children?