Buying a minibus

[rickysmiths]

@ Rickysmiths. I work as I would any other job. I earn my money, and pay my bills, save for tax, and holidays, do my house up, take my kids out, pay for clubs etc...

I have not said I do not earn anything, or not make a profit. Of course I do, or it would be pointless doing it. My argument is that chilldminders operate, and have different 'rules' than other businesses, (accounts wise) so didn't know if this was the case in this instance too.

I have not brought the minibus yet, and I am mearly asking this question, and researching all the information available to me before making that decision. I do not want to get myself into trouble, or endanger the children.

Luckily for you, you are able to save, and have a contingency. I do not... I know other childminders too who struggle, more than me, and literally live until the next pay day. Most people working live month to month, whether childminding or not.

I am able to buy a minibus, by selling my car, although really the ins & outs of my finances are irrelevant! Yes, of course we make a profit - but I'm not disclosing how I spend my disposable income!

I have never implied I will only be carrying non paying children, I mearly stated that in order to be classed as a PSV, then you will only carry people who have paid for my service. This is not the case. If needed I would carry another childminders own child, if they didn't have enough space in their car, therefore, how can we fall into the 'only carrying clients who pay for the service'...

But as you state, I am well aware it's all a 'grey area' hence me asking. None of the authorities are open until Monday, when I will know for sure - BEFORE I buy a minibus.

I have done nothing wrong, just asking for information...

I don't think I said you had done anything wrong. i was just trying to point out as many pitfalls as poss. Sorry if I misunerstood the bit about mindees and paying its been a long day, out 0f the house at 6am and we have driven 300 miles and only got back at 7pm, so shattered. (shared driving with dh!)

Still don't envy you though!

[mum2two]

I appreciate you & others pointing out the legislation, and reasons against it, it was the fact you started bringing my finances etc into it, which really has nothing to do with it.

The point I was making, was if they want me to register it as commercial, then I have to have x amount of money readily available to fix the minibus, as a business, such as a nursery, care home, etc would. As a childminder, we do not have to have these in place for our own cars, (we have 2, so if ones of the road we use the other...) If my car needs £1000 spending on it, it would take 2 months for me to get money together, as well as still having fun. (we have no credit cards, overdrafts, loans etc...) But, my car is only worth about £1700, so really not worth spending £1k on it!

I read on another thread that someone was asked to prove they had £4000 available. There is no way I would ever have £4000 saved & just sat there for my car - I like holidays too much! (Also, especially when then minibus is only going to be costing us £1500 - so if cost £4k to fix, it would be gone!!!)

It just seems silly that insurers are happy to insure us, knowing all the details, telling me we just need business ins, and having that we are both childminders, so that's who we'd be carrying. If the insurers are happy, then surely that's what matters, as at the end of the day, they have to pay out & if we've disclosed all relevant info, then they can't refuse in the event of a claim....

But then again - I don't know.

I will get all the proper answers tomorrow, and will argue my case like I've said! We can't be classed as 'not gaining reward' when we are drving cars, but when we drive a minibus we are. It's either one way or the other...

Watch this space!!!!

xx

[Monkey1]

i would be really interested as we are thinking of getting one for our holiday club and childminding.

[flora]

My computer old computer hard drive is broken other wise I could have mailed you the stuff I got from VOSA.

I had A 12 SEAT LANDROVER . I was told that I would have to take out seats otherwise I would fall foul of the PSV rULES.

i TAKE YOUR POINT ABOUT PRIVATE CARS oops caps on and regular checks and money and wot not.

But I am afraid they are the rules. You have to have monthly checks on the vehicle by a qualified person and weekly and daily checks have to be done too and froms filled in.

You also have to reg with your local council and also do you PSV test at your own expense.

Others who use mini buses may or may not know the rules. I know we all "bend or break" rules sometimes. It comes down to whether you can live with the results if you get sued or get caught.

Thinking about it. I did print th stuff off from Vosa. If you PM ME your address I will try and send it to you. I know it is upstairs in a "safe place"

[mum2two]

Thanks Flora.

Have just received a reply from a solicitor, that as we are childminders, we may be able to apply for a restricted operators licence. Just looking at what that actaully entails too, and what difference it is from the standard one.

Actually, just found the costs... Still got to show bank statements, and prove I have access to funds to maintain 'the fleet'.

Costs £254 for the application, then when granted pay another £354, plus £48 per year.

Then, this is where it seems silly... I have to have an operating centre, which I have advertised in the local paper, and in house maintanence requirements!!!

Arrrrrgggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!! Perhaps I should put my fees up, as we are using 2 cars on outings then!

xx

[flora]

I know the rules are fairly onerous and that why we decided to just take four seats out.

Even on the restricted licence you still need a PSV according to Vosa

My hubbie is competent to maintian the vehicles but we would have had to get a proper fitter to sign off the work and check it all they charge £25+ per hour compared to my £3

We left well alone

Hope you get sorted

[mum2two]

I am still going to call the Dept for Transport tomorrow anyway...

I like a good argument!!!

x

[flora]

good luck let us know how you got on

[mum2two]

I will let you all know. I'm not expecting to get very far - but I like to know I've exhausted all options before giving in!

x

[mum2two]

Well, this is what I have got today. Not happy - at all...

Spoke to VOSA, and she confirmed we need an operators licence. I then challenged, that how come we are allowed to drive cars under normal business class use, to which she replied that whatever the size of the car, it needs to be registered. Under 8 seats with a local authority, and over 8 seats, with them. (VOSA number I called is 0113 254 3295)

I then spoke to Morton Michel motor insurance, who advised that we were fine to drive both cars & minibusses as we do, as we are not working for hire or reward as such, and business use is fine.

Just thought I'd clarify with the legal team at Morton Michel, as if anything ever happened, they would be who we would use. I have now just spoke to them, and the guy told me that yes, regardless of what car we drive, as we are transporting people for hire or reward, then all vehicles need to be registered. He said that these things tend to come to light like this. No-one is particularly made aware, and it's not until there's an accident etc, that people know.

So, now forwarded all info to my DO at the NCMA, as we need clarification on this, as to whether we can actually use our own cars legally. (Don't want to have an accident & find out we're not covered!)

I am not registering myself/my car as taxis. How much would we have to increase our fees in order to cover all those extra costs. How many childminders would just give up??? Thought the governement wanted to increase available childcare... This is not the way to go!

Hopefully it's all wrong....????

[flora]

When I rang the local authourity about reg with them as this is what I was told by VOSA too.

They told me that cmm's where excempt from this as we do not charge directly and they had no intention of reg'ing me.

Case of left hand not knowing what the right is up to

[mum2two]

That's exactly it! It would be nice if everyone was working to the same rules & ideas.

But then, who's advice do you follow. I decided I was going to go by what the solicitors said, as they would be the ones I would go to if I was ever taken to court - but I don't like their answer over the cars...

xx

[rickysmiths]

I think there might be a lot of MM Cms out there surprised at what they have told you!

I understood that as long as we charge our hourly rate and not for sperate journeys or extra for things like collecting from the childs home we were alright.

The grey area is the cms who charge extra petrol+ money, for collecting and delivering children from their homes. Or to collect a child and take them to school and then take them home, charge but the child never enters the cms home. That is acting like a taxi and that is why I won't agree to ever do this.

I have just had this issue with a potential new parent who started of by saying they expected me to collect in the morning and take home at night and I refused. They have come to me but they bring the child to my home and collect as well. I will only help in an emergency.

I am surprised that a Company as big as MM haven't made it crystal clear to all cms that they have to Register as a Taxi if this is what we are actually required to do. Indeed if they think this is what we have to do surely they would require evidence of being Registered before they would insure you?

I'm sure a cm would have a claim against them for taking money under false pretenses if they are charging for a Policy that they know is not Valid because the cm is not Registered as a Taxi when they should be. That would be a very dangerous position for them to put themselves in.

[Monkey1]

I think there might be a lot of MM Cms out there surprised at what they have told you!

I understood that as long as we charge our hourly rate and not for sperate journeys or extra for things like collecting from the childs home we were alright.

The grey area is the cms who charge extra petrol+ money, for collecting and delivering children from their homes. Or to collect a child and take them to school and then take them home, charge but the child never enters the cms home. That is acting like a taxi and that is why I won't agree to ever do this.

I have just had this issue with a potential new parent who started of by saying they expected me to collect in the morning and take home at night and I refused. They have come to me but they bring the child to my home and collect as well. I will only help in an emergency.

I am surprised that a Company as big as MM haven't made it crystal clear to all cms that they have to Register as a Taxi if this is what we are actually required to do. Indeed if they think this is what we have to do surely they would require evidence of being Registered before they would insure you?

I'm sure a cm would have a claim against them for taking money under false pretenses if they are charging for a Policy that they know is not Valid because the cm is not Registered as a Taxi when they should be. That would be a very dangerous position for them to put themselves in.

so true! I have been insured for my 8 seater through MM and i wasnt questioned about anything about transporting the children!

[jumpinjen]

Same for any insurance company that insures a minder for business use.... if they don't know their eggs how are we supposed to? I would be tempted to call MM mum2two and ask them if they will then be notifying all their customers of the issue or should you do it for them through the national press? said ever so sweetly of course!

Jen

[MrAnchovy]

Hold on guys, Morton Michel are nothing to do with these regulations and they are telling you that you they will insure you for "business use in connection with childcare activities", so you don't have to worry (as far as their insurance is concerned) about how "hire or reward" is defined. Why do you think they are part of the problem?

[berkschick]

Someone reversed into me last Easter whilst I had mindees in the car.

My insurance paid out no bother and even replaced all 6 seats I had in the car at the time!

Obviously they claimed it all back as it wasnt my fault!

[Monkey1]

Hold on guys, Morton Michel are nothing to do with these regulations and they are telling you that you they will insure you for "business use in connection with childcare activities", so you don't have to worry (as far as their insurance is concerned) about how "hire or reward" is defined. Why do you think they are part of the problem?

I cant complain about Mm at all.........they answer the phone when i call within minutes....my other car insurance is with direct line and dont get me started on them all we ask for is guidelines( in english) that we can understand that EVERYONE goes by......not been told a million different things by a million different people

[jumpinjen]

Well, this is what I have got today. Not happy - at all...

Spoke to VOSA, and she confirmed we need an operators licence. I then challenged, that how come we are allowed to drive cars under normal business class use, to which she replied that whatever the size of the car, it needs to be registered. Under 8 seats with a local authority, and over 8 seats, with them. (VOSA number I called is 0113 254 3295)

I then spoke to Morton Michel motor insurance, who advised that we were fine to drive both cars & minibusses as we do, as we are not working for hire or reward as such, and business use is fine.

Just thought I'd clarify with the legal team at Morton Michel, as if anything ever happened, they would be who we would use. I have now just spoke to them, and the guy told me that yes, regardless of what car we drive, as we are transporting people for hire or reward, then all vehicles need to be registered. He said that these things tend to come to light like this. No-one is particularly made aware, and it's not until there's an accident etc, that people know. So, now forwarded all info to my DO at the NCMA, as we need clarification on this, as to whether we can actually use our own cars legally. (Don't want to have an accident & find out we're not covered!)

I am not registering myself/my car as taxis. How much would we have to increase our fees in order to cover all those extra costs. How many childminders would just give up??? Thought the governement wanted to increase available childcare... This is not the way to go!

Hopefully it's all wrong....????

this is the problem Mr Anchovy........ MM contradicted themselves!!

jenni

[MrAnchovy]

this is the problem Mr Anchovy........ MM contradicted themselves!!

No, from what I have read here I don't think they have. The legal advice service provided by MM have said that you need to be registered to comply with the regulations for registration of Private Hire Vehicles, the insurance team have said that you don't need to be registered to comply with the requirements of the insurance they provide.