Update from Pacey regarding claiming training with HMRC

[Chatterbox Childcare]

This was posted on the pacey local forum today which is good news for everyone. I asked them to clarify with the HMRC on claiming for training costs. Please consider this when you next see that Pacey do nothing for childminders.


Hi Debbie

Sorry for the delay, we've been waiting for HMRC to clarify this and now I have their answer I will do my best to explain:

You cannot claim the training expenses when getting the initial skills to set up as a childminder, however once you are trading as a childminder you can claim training expenses when enhancing your skills. These must be necessary for your work, for example if there was a Childminding refresher course that you had to do annually etc then this would generally be allowable, equally as mentioned, safeguarding and first aid courses are essential and so are allowable.

The vital point is that any training claimed must only be essential for you to do childminding, in other words enhancing your knowledge, if asked you would need to prove that it was essential for you do this training to continue and enhance your work.

An example of something you wouldn't be able to claim would be if you did an art course at college; although you might do art with the children, this would not be essential for the job and so would not be seen as being related to your work and so not allowable.

The issue with any additional training or qualification you may take is that is has to be proved that it is purely for your current Childminder role, if it is a more generic qualification that is transferable it may not be allowable as it is not specific to this job.

Link to HMRC info BIM42526 - Specific deductions: administration: own training courses

[loocyloo]

Thank you very much and thank you pacey.

[tulip0803]

Thank you for asking the question and for the info

[Emra81]

Thank you for that x Can I just check that I've read that right though...you CANNOT claim for initial training to set up as a childminder?! Surely that's essential training seeing as you literally cannot register without it? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? :-S

[Koala]

THANK YOU PACEY - I'm not sure what for or am I missing something?

From what I can see nothing further has been achieved - all that has been clarified is that you can claim first aid and safeguarding courses and childminder refresher courses and any other courses that you take are arguably 'not essential' whether it be child development, play, nvq's etc... etc.... as these are 'not essential' to being a childminder i.e. you don't have to have them to be a childminder. Even though they are imo essential for cpd.
From what I have read all you can claim for is what the government state you have to legally have to be registered as a childminder, therefore - the bare minimum - and no cpd as this could arguably be transferred elsewhere and again 'not essential.
The art course analogy is totally unhelpful and a bit condescending imo. But that may just be me.
And the fact that you can't claim initial training costs to qualify as a childminder is outrageous. And I cannot believe pacey would accept that this is fair.


Please tell me I have got it wrong. I can't see where pacey have done anything to support a childminder in claiming for their expenses for cpd except to just re distribute HMRC stance on screwing us over.

I hope I don't offend anyone and again I would love to be corrected.

At the bottom of this post - it may have gone - is an add for level 2 food safety - £15 on line course - using this as an example (more apt than the pacey analogy) - it is arguably not essential for being a childminder (desirable and would enhance your skills) and is transferable therefore would not be allowable as an expense??

[Chatterbox Childcare]

THANK YOU PACEY - I'm not sure what for or am I missing something?

From what I can see nothing further has been achieved - all that has been clarified is that you can claim first aid and safeguarding courses and childminder refresher courses and any other courses that you take are arguably 'not essential' whether it be child development, play, nvq's etc... etc.... as these are 'not essential' to being a childminder i.e. you don't have to have them to be a childminder. Even though they are imo essential for cpd.
From what I have read all you can claim for is what the government state you have to legally have to be registered as a childminder, therefore - the bare minimum - and no cpd as this could arguably be transferred elsewhere and again 'not essential.
The art course analogy is totally unhelpful and a bit condescending imo. But that may just be me.
And the fact that you can't claim initial training costs to qualify as a childminder is outrageous. And I cannot believe pacey would accept that this is fair.


Please tell me I have got it wrong. I can't see where pacey have done anything to support a childminder in claiming for their expenses for cpd except to just re distribute HMRC stance on screwing us over.

I hope I don't offend anyone and again I would love to be corrected.

At the bottom of this post - it may have gone - is an add for level 2 food safety - £15 on line course - using this as an example (more apt than the pacey analogy) - it is arguably not essential for being a childminder (desirable and would enhance your skills) and is transferable therefore would not be allowable as an expense??

I just clicked on the BIM and it states CPD is okay - am I missing something?

Pacey have not reiterated anything, just clarified the facts.

Maybe another organisation will do the same and get further, let us know how they go.

[Koala]

I just clicked on the BIM and it states CPD is okay - am I missing something?

Pacey have not reiterated anything, just clarified the facts.

Maybe another organisation will do the same and get further, let us know how they go.

BIM ?? I can';t find it.

Yes, pacey have reiterated what HMRC have said and imo is not fair or just, yes it is fact, however they don't get applause for stating facts, they may get applause for supporting childminders better with being able to claim all their childcare business related training expenses as expenditure which is not the case at present.

Where did you find that cpd is covered?? I found certain aspects are claimable but this is very strict rules about claiming purely on the basis of what training you absolutely need to be registered as a childminder are allowable (which was reiterated by pacey)not training over and above the basics which is what cpd generally is. i.e. nvq, degree, etc.... etc... This is what I feel a childminding organisation should be fighting for and they should be ashamed that it isn't the case. Nurseries, school etc... etc... are able to claim these costs and even get burseries from government to train their staff accordingly where do we end up?? paying for it with our taxes.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

BIM ?? I can';t find it.

Yes, pacey have reiterated what HMRC have said and imo is not fair or just, yes it is fact, however they don't get applause for stating facts, they may get applause for supporting childminders better with being able to claim all their childcare business related training expenses as expenditure which is not the case at present.

Where did you find that cpd is covered?? I found certain aspects are claimable but this is very strict rules about claiming purely on the basis of what training you absolutely need to be registered as a childminder are allowable (which was reiterated by pacey)not training over and above the basics which is what cpd generally is. i.e. nvq, degree, etc.... etc... This is what I feel a childminding organisation should be fighting for and they should be ashamed that it isn't the case. Nurseries, school etc... etc... are able to claim these costs and even get burseries from government to train their staff accordingly where do we end up?? paying for it with our taxes.

Click on the blue writing in the original thread first post. I got this for cpd with the purpose of up-dating their skills and professional expertise is normally revenue expenditure, which is deductible from the profits of the business

Lots of other information there.

[Simona]

I cannot understand why Cms are confused by this?

Any pre registration training is paid for by the CM ...possibly by using the grant (if they claim that grant which is still available from the DfE) but it will not go very far...once your business is set up then what you claim has to be related to cminding.

The question to answer is: would you spend that money on it if you were not a cm? Would you do Paediatric First Aid if you did not care for children? would you do safeguarding?

What Pacey have said is hardly rocket science...it has been so for the last 20+ years

The rules governing CMs and HMRC is open to all to see and anyone who has an accountant will know they follow them

CPD has always been part of our good practice...Ofsted in their guidance say they will check our qualifications
It was EPPE that confirmed qualifications lead to better outcomes in 2004 not Ofsted

All in all CMs are trying to become mini accountants and understand the complicated rules of HMRC and home based businesses...it is far more complicated than just looking at a guidance

With training being paid for by cms in future this needs to be addressed...not just by pacey but all associations because agencies will certainly do that for their members...did Truss not say Cms need help in running their business?

My suggestion remains the same...look into using a qualified accountant

[Simona]

I still have not had my previous question answered...nurseries and preschools will claim the cost of CPD for their employees...so why are Cms not entitled to claim for theirs?

We need this asked by those who represent us...whoever they are

[Emra81]

What does surprise me is the setting up Training . How can that not be a legitimate expense because if you don't do it you are not going to be able to Register as a Childminder? A bit like saying to a Window cleaner you can't claim for your first ladder, bucket and cloth but any bought after that fine!!!

I completely agree....this part makes no sense to me whatsoever. If the initial training isn't claimable then how can anything else be?! If we're saying that paediatric first aid and safeguarding, the things we HAVE to do to maintain our registration, can be claimed for once we're registered, where's the logic/justification in not being able to claim for them when setting up?! Confused.com!

[Simona]

I completely agree....this part makes no sense to me whatsoever. If the initial training isn't claimable then how can anything else be?! If we're saying that paediatric first aid and safeguarding, the things we HAVE to do to maintain our registration, can be claimed for once we're registered, where's the logic/justification in not being able to claim for them when setting up?! Confused.com!

The initial training to register to become a CM used to be offered for free by the LA...is this not the case anymore?

CMs must do First Aid and CProtection before registration...is that not part of the LA package? maybe those who are currently registering can tell us about their experience
CMs can also claim the grant for setting up...are LAs advertising this as it has been extended by the DfE.

[k1rstie]

Our borough used to offer the initial training free ( a few years ago). They found a lot of people attended all the free training , they did not actually register.

Now they charge.

[hectors house]

When I registered I was given £300 start up grant from the local authority, part of the money was for NCMA membership and toolkit, it was up to us what the rest of the money was spent on - I entered the money into my accounts as income received and then put my first aid training, doctors medical form, and equipment copy receipts through as expenses - I had to send the originals to LA to prove what I used money for.

[Simona]

When I registered I was given £300 start up grant from the local authority, part of the money was for NCMA membership and toolkit, it was up to us what the rest of the money was spent on - I entered the money into my accounts as income received and then put my first aid training, doctors medical form, and equipment copy receipts through as expenses - I had to send the originals to LA to prove what I used money for.

That is how it used to be...I did the same
At the moment those who want to register have to go to their LA for initial briefings and training as FA and CP are still LAs approved (EYFS 2012)
I cannot believe LAs are charging new CMs!!

From Sept those cms who want to register with an agency can approach the agency who will have a package and 'register' them at a cost of course but for independent CMs they cannot receive a registration visit by Ofsted until all training is in place

Has this changed? it is certainly very messy and needs addressing...so I am listening and reading all comments

[mama2three]

Still clear as mud to me.

So..You cannot claim the training expenses when getting the initial skills to set up as a childminder - I presume that agency minders will be able to put through their agency fee which covers these initial skills - but independent childminders cannot claim them.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

That is how it used to be...I did the same
At the moment those who want to register have to go to their LA for initial briefings and training as FA and CP are still LAs approved (EYFS 2012)
I cannot believe LAs are charging new CMs!!

From Sept those cms who want to register with an agency can approach the agency who will have a package and 'register' them at a cost of course but for independent CMs they cannot receive a registration visit by Ofsted until all training is in place

Has this changed? it is certainly very messy and needs addressing...so I am listening and reading all comments

Simona the system changed in sept 13 and anyone wanting to register with Ofsted had to have their paperwork/courses done before they could even apply. Makes sense I think - weedles out the time wasters

[Lal]

My compulsory start up course has cost me £295 via PACEY (Local Authority provider). I will have to pay an additional £50 to LA if I'm not working within 6 months. I had assumed that as it was an essential part of setting up the business it would be an allowable expense.

[Simona]

Simona the system changed in sept 13 and anyone wanting to register with Ofsted had to have their paperwork/courses done before they could even apply. Makes sense I think - weedles out the time wasters

I agree and I am aware that those who register have to do the courses before their Ofsted visit...I am clear on that as it is in the current EYFS and agree with it totally
I am trying to understand how much is the amount it costs cms to register via the LA and why it cannot be put through their books once they start operating

Will go and ask a few questions

[Little Penny's]

I started registration last October.

I had to pay my LA £100 for a 3 day course over a 3 week period. This included safeguarding training. We were told about the grant and that its to use as we wish but can only be claimed once you have your certificate.

On the course we were told to claim the cost of the course and travel expenses. We were also told we were lucky as the following group who would have been trained this Apr will be paying £150 for the same course.

I've had to pay for my DBS's for both my husband and I even though I had an enhanced one in may. (I'm slightly confused why it has to be a specific company. Surely an enhanced check is the same no matter who you pay.)

My health dec my ofsted fee and everything else that goes along.

I've worked out that by the time I finally get an income at the end of July I'm likely to have spent nearly £1000 with double pushchair and everything.

Not to add that in oct I was told I should be able to start working in February when I didn't get my pre-reg until beginning of april (dbs delay) and my cert came first week of may. With all the delays I held off advertising until I had my pre-reg booked. Hence why no one starting until July