I'm hoping that some one on this wonderful site may be able to answer this 'silly' question...

My registration details say that once a child starts full time education they are classed as being in the 5-8 yr range, this I understand :laughing: My question... when are they said to have started ful time education? Is it in the July when they have finished Nursery or is it September when they actually start Reception?

Just wondering as I need to get my nubers sorted as I have a few parents asking about care during the holidays. I currently look after a 4 yr old starting Rec in Sept, as well as a 6yr old starting in 2 weeks, but have been asked to care for a 3 and 4 yr old during the hols. Will this take me over my under 5 quota?

:confused: so any advise is greatly received

They are classed as a rising five when they are in full time education so if your 4 yo's are not in school they are still counted in your under 5's.

Dont forget you need the rising 5 put on your certficate as well :thumbsup:

Sorry think I'm having a dumb day but did you mean I need to get my certificate reissued because my mindee is going into full time education?

I though I only needed to inform ofsted when my own DD changed age groups (I know I need to inform in jan when she turns 1)

sorry again if im being dumb but im just a little confused :blush:

Full time education is equivelent of 10 sessions a week in a school (not a nursery!)


A child who is 4 and in full time education can be classed as a rising 5 - meaning they can be included in EITHER your under 5's ratios OR your 5-8 yr old ratio - you can even 'float' them between the two.
For this though you need the rising 5 clause on your certificate stating that 9not sure of exact wording at the moment) 'for the purposes of ratio a child aged 4 in full time education may be classed as blah blah blah'


Once a child is 5 however they stop being a rising 5 and go into your 5-8 category


so yes if you don't have that clause you need to request a new certificate stating that clause.

I was confused about this issue so e-mailed Ofsted when my lo turned 4 in February and got an e-mail back. I was very clear that my 4 year old was in Playschool 9 - 3, 5 days a week and not starting Primary school until September.

The reply was that he was a rising 5 from his 4th Birthday

Even more confused now.... :blush:

I was confused about this issue so e-mailed Ofsted when my lo turned 4 in February and got an e-mail back. I was very clear that my 4 year old was in Playschool 9 - 3, 5 days a week and not starting Primary school until September.

The reply was that he was a rising 5 from his 4th Birthday

Even more confused now.... :blush:

I think that's incorrect - the Ofsted fact sheet talks about 4 and 5 yo's in full time education being counted as over 5.

Miffy xx

I think that's incorrect - the Ofsted fact sheet talks about 4 and 5 yo's in full time education being counted as over 5.

Miffy xx

It is incorrect - it has to be full time school and 10 sessions a week - which means if they start school but have a phased intake they are still an under 5 not a rising five untill they do all 10 sessions.

Penny :)

I was confused about this issue so e-mailed Ofsted when my lo turned 4 in February and got an e-mail back. I was very clear that my 4 year old was in Playschool 9 - 3, 5 days a week and not starting Primary school until September.

The reply was that he was a rising 5 from his 4th Birthday

Even more confused now.... :blush:

I'm sure it has to be school not preschool. I would imagine whoever you spoke to has made a mistake.

Sammc
The child must be attending all sessions, ie morning and afternoon so if your mindees is having settling in sessions and going in late or leaving early s/he will not count as a 5 year old until s/he goes in at 9am and leaves at 3pm (or whatever the full time day is at your primary).

Hope that clarifies x

Here you go....

this is a pinned thread from last year.
I had gained written clairfication from Ofsted about the Rising 5 thing - and yes it can and does apply to your own child


http://childmindinghelp.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=41866&highlight=Rising+5

It is incorrect - it has to be full time school and 10 sessions a week - which means if they start school but have a phased intake they are still an under 5 not a rising five untill they do all 10 sessions.

Penny :)

My inspector cancelled my variation because the child in question was 4 and attending 10 sessions of pre school a week. She said that was the same as a 4 year old attending those same sessions at school, so she was a rising 5 and could be counted as one.

My inspector cancelled my variation because the child in question was 4 and attending 10 sessions of pre school a week. She said that was the same as a 4 year old attending those same sessions at school, so she was a rising 5 and could be counted as one.

I am very surprised - but not going to argue with an inspector - even though is not what I was told for a mindee or what my daughter was told for her own son.

Surely though this would mean that we could all put the 4 year olds into preschool for 10 sessions (some of which could be funded) and take on another under 5 without having to apply for a variation.

It would also in my opinion open up the aguement for accredited childminders to say - well child x is 4 and has 10 education sessions with me - therefore i am going to class him as a raising five - and take onanother under five - as what is the difference between a 10 sessions at a preschool - when the child is still your responsibility and 10 session with an accredited childminder when the child is still your responsibility?

As often is the case - I wish inspectors would be consistant.

Green Puppy please not think I am having a 'dig' at you as after all you have only followed what is on your certificate and as told by the inspector - but it seems that your inspector just might have the facts wrong - and if not - the 4 year old in my care will be going to pre school for 10 sessions!

Penny :)

as anyone you speak to at ofsted will give you different views i think the best thing to do is email and print out a copy of what they reply with :laughing:

i was told last year that as my mindees school didnt do phased intake (and had it in writing) i could class her as a rising 5 from when she left nursery.

luckily my mindee is starting school this year will be 5 before he starts school, missed it last year by 2 days!!!

Thanks for all your replies peeps...but I'm still lost with this rising 5 :eek:

Think I'll take Hebs advice and email the powers that be and keep their response with my certificate so the inspector can see I'm just following their guidance

I am very surprised - but not going to argue with an inspector - even though is not what I was told for a mindee or what my daughter was told for her own son.

Surely though this would mean that we could all put the 4 year olds into preschool for 10 sessions (some of which could be funded) and take on another under 5 without having to apply for a variation.

The child would move into your 5-8 bracket for ratio purposes as you would only usually have them before and after those "school" hours and holidays. You would still have to stay within your reg numbers and have the rising 5 bit on your certificate.

It would also in my opinion open up the aguement for accredited childminders to say - well child x is 4 and has 10 education sessions with me - therefore i am going to class him as a raising five - and take onanother under five - as what is the difference between a 10 sessions at a preschool - when the child is still your responsibility and 10 session with an accredited childminder when the child is still your responsibility?

An accredited cm only offers the funded place for 2.5 hours per day so not the same as a pre school session 9-3 I guess. Might be worth putting this question to ofsted?

As often is the case - I wish inspectors would be consistant.

She pointed out the part in the stat framework that states "where four and five year old children only attend the childminding setting before and?or after a normal school day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio". She said full time pre school is the same hours as school so the rising 5's rule would apply.

Green Puppy please not think I am having a 'dig' at you as after all you have only followed what is on your certificate and as told by the inspector - but it seems that your inspector just might have the facts wrong - and if not - the 4 year old in my care will be going to pre school for 10 sessions!

Penny :)

You may not necessarily be responsible for a child during those full time hours as you would normally charge for before and after those hours, I guess. I don't see how it is different for a four year old doing 9-3 in pre school to a child doing 9-3 in reception? That was my inspector's argument. She said the eyfs does not specify reception only, just normal school hours which usually are 9-3ish. But as said always better to check for yourself, I think it's also better to speak to an inspector as opposed to the first person that answers the phone.:)

An accredited cm only offers the funded place for 2.5 hours per day so not the same as a pre school session 9-3 I guess. Might be worth putting this question to ofsted?

Green Puppy - pre schools can only provided the same number of funded hours as an accredited childminder - in varies in areas depending on if the LA taking part in any government scheme.
Therefore it is not the same as being in full time school - pre schools and accredited childminders all have to charge for the additional hours a parent sends their child over and above the funded hours. Therefore the maximum number of hours most pre schools or accredited childminders can provided is 15 at the moment - far short of the 30 hours a child would be in full time school.

As you say a question for Ofsted.

It would raise an interesting discussion as to how the rule would be applied to the children while they are in pre school because if they are being classed as rising fives (ie doing a full 'school' day- how would that effect the pre school ofsted registration and staff ratio's?

And yes Hebs is right - get it in writing - so you are covered.

Penny :)

[QUOTE=Penny1959;942644]An accredited cm only offers the funded place for 2.5 hours per day so not the same as a pre school session 9-3 I guess. Might be worth putting this question to ofsted?

Green Puppy - pre schools can only provided the same number of funded hours as an accredited childminder - in varies in areas depending on if the LA taking part in any government scheme.
Therefore it is not the same as being in full time school - pre schools and accredited childminders all have to charge for the additional hours a parent sends their child over and above the funded hours. Therefore the maximum number of hours most pre schools or accredited childminders can provided is 15 at the moment - far short of the 30 hours a child would be in full time school.

As you say a question for Ofsted.

It would raise an interesting discussion as to how the rule would be applied to the children while they are in pre school because if they are being classed as rising fives (ie doing a full 'school' day- how would that effect the pre school ofsted registration and staff ratio's?

And yes Hebs is right - get it in writing - so you are covered.

Penny :)[/QUOTE

I see it as being different because if a child is at pre school they are effectively out of your numbers between school hours the same as a five year old. They are classed as before and after school as you do not have responsibility for them during those hours. An accredited cm would have responsibility all day as the child would be in the cm's care all day, so not just a before and after school contract if that makes sense.:)

[QUOTE=Penny1959;942644]An accredited cm only offers the funded place for 2.5 hours per day so not the same as a pre school session 9-3 I guess. Might be worth putting this question to ofsted?

An Accredited Childminder can offer more than 2.5 hours per day. We can divide the 15 hours up and spread them or use them for a longer period i.e. 6 hours one day, 6 the next and 5 the day after

Just to add more confusion, I have just spoken to ofsted to get clarification! The guy said that a pre school is registered with ofsted to provide care so the rising 5's thing doesn't count. However a maintained nursery attached to a school is classed as providing education so the rising 5's thing does count. So Penny you were correct in saying my inspector was wrong as she was according to the guy on the phone.:eek: This meant that for an hour a day after school pick up I would have been over my numbers. Even worse I had actually re checked by phoning ofsted at the time about this and had been told that yes it was okay!!!:eek: This was nearly 3 years ago for a matter of a couple of months but not the point. I told the man on the phone that this needs clarifying within ofsted so we are not getting conflicting information. He wouldn't put it in an email though as it isn't spelled out that way in the guidence and ofsted only write what is written there.:rolleyes:
Funemnx- Really not sure about accredited cm's now, would we be classed as a registered care provider or education provider? I told the guy he may get more phone calls in regards to this!:) So to recap he said- pre school- no, maintained nursery- yes. More confused now so off for a cup of tea while the lo's sleep!:clapping:

My certifcate states and my son and mindee are now classed as rising 5's but they are not in reception - they are in a school nursery so ofsted said they are in the full 10 sessions.

Now when my cm friend rang about he mindee who hadnt got into the nursery and so was still at preschool she was told no she couldnt class them as rising 5's.

But in our area its different to alot of you

Preschool if for 2 years olds (3/4 yo's if they dont get into the nursery of their choice)

Nursery (all out schools have a nursery provision) which provided they are 3 by the 31st August they will start in phased starts from september.

Then reception :thumbsup:

Just to add more confusion, I have just spoken to ofsted to get clarification! The guy said that a pre school is registered with ofsted to provide care so the rising 5's thing doesn't count. However a maintained nursery attached to a school is classed as providing education so the rising 5's thing does count. So Penny you were correct in saying my inspector was wrong as she was according to the guy on the phone.:eek: This meant that for an hour a day after school pick up I would have been over my numbers. Even worse I had actually re checked by phoning ofsted at the time about this and had been told that yes it was okay!!!:eek: This was nearly 3 years ago for a matter of a couple of months but not the point. I told the man on the phone that this needs clarifying within ofsted so we are not getting conflicting information. He wouldn't put it in an email though as it isn't spelled out that way in the guidence and ofsted only write what is written there.:rolleyes:
Funemnx- Really not sure about accredited cm's now, would we be classed as a registered care provider or education provider? I told the guy he may get more phone calls in regards to this!:) So to recap he said- pre school- no, maintained nursery- yes. More confused now so off for a cup of tea while the lo's sleep!:clapping:



I hate to say it guys but speaking to the receptionist at Ofsted is little more than useless. Half of them guess at what they think you want to hear tbh.

You MUST MUST MUST get written clairification of what they are telling you - MUST.
A child is in FULL TIME EDUCATION in the eyes of the law when they start school[/B] - not nursery or an accredited minder.
This is what is meant by full time education/10 sessions per week. Therefore a child who is 4 - starting BEFORE the required legal age of 5 can be classed as a 'rising 5' for the purposes of ratio if they are meeting the criteria of being in FULL TIME EDCUATION.

Nursery and other such places are PRE - school educational establishments and that is all.

i have just emailed ofsted for urgent clarification of this confusion:thumbsup:

I hate to say it guys but speaking to the receptionist at Ofsted is little more than useless. Half of them guess at what they think you want to hear tbh.

You MUST MUST MUST get written clairification of what they are telling you - MUST.
A child is in FULL TIME EDUCATION in the eyes of the law when they start school[/B] - not nursery or an accredited minder.
This is what is meant by full time education/10 sessions per week. Therefore a child who is 4 - starting BEFORE the required legal age of 5 can be classed as a 'rising 5' for the purposes of ratio if they are meeting the criteria of being in FULL TIME EDCUATION.

Nursery and other such places are PRE - school educational establishments and that is all.

But a school maintained nursery is classed as the rising 5 because it is full time education (it is around here anyhow). They dont get the funding for the 3/yos they get separate dfunding because they are maintained.

Nurseries and preschool are diffeernt to a school nursery its why around here come sept alot of preschool, day nurseries, childminders lose alot of children because they go to school. Also the guy who does my accreditated funding told me I wouldnt probably get anyone wanting the funding till next year because most of them would have started school :)

An Accredited Childminder can offer more than 2.5 hours per day. We can divide the 15 hours up and spread them or use them for a longer period i.e. 6 hours one day, 6 the next and 5 the day after[/QUOTE]

Yes I am aware of that as I was a network coordinator - the comment was use in reply to Green Puppys post - as no matter how you divide the hours - they do not exceed 15 hrs per week

However others may not have been aware so thanks for pointing it out.

Penny :)

But a school maintained nursery is classed as the rising 5 because it is full time education (it is around here anyhow). They dont get the funding for the 3/yos they get separate dfunding because they are maintained.

Nurseries and preschool are diffeernt to a school nursery its why around here come sept alot of preschool, day nurseries, childminders lose alot of children because they go to school. Also the guy who does my accreditated funding told me I wouldnt probably get anyone wanting the funding till next year because most of them would have started school :)

FussyElmo - I am really interested to know why things are different in your area when everyone is subject to the same regulations.

I worked for the Local Authority in Worcestershire for 7 years and was responsible for the cm network and the accredited childminders and so had to attend all the meetings for early years education. In worcestershire children are also offered a place in a maintained nursery at 3 and at 4 - and both age groups are funded differently to that of same age groups in pre schools, private nurseries or accredited childminders - BUT they are not classed as school and the 4 year olds are not classed as rising 5's. In Worcestershire and I believe just about every where else c
4 year olds are only classed as rising five's when they are in full time school - in other words in reception.

As I said I would be really interested to know why it is different in your area and why other areas cannot (do not) have the same rule.

Penny :)

FussyElmo - I am really interested to know why things are different in your area when everyone is subject to the same regulations.

I worked for the Local Authority in Worcestershire for 7 years and was responsible for the cm network and the accredited childminders and so had to attend all the meetings for early years education. In worcestershire children are also offered a place in a maintained nursery at 3 and at 4 - and both age groups are funded differently to that of same age groups in pre schools, private nurseries or accredited childminders - BUT they are not classed as school and the 4 year olds are not classed as rising 5's. In Worcestershire and I believe just about every where else c
4 year olds are only classed as rising five's when they are in full time school - in other words in reception.

As I said I would be really interested to know why it is different in your area and why other areas cannot (do not) have the same rule.

Penny :)



I honestly dont know I didnt know that I could until one of my do's (who used to be an ofsted inspector ) told me I could and that she had confirmed with ofsted for me.

When I rang Ofsted to ask for my certificate to be changed I again queried it and was told as long as it was a school maintained nursery and as soon as they turned 4 they could be classed as a rising 5.

In fact thinking about it when i was first inspected the inspector on the day changed my certificate because ds1 has turned 4 but was still in nursery class and a separate inspector changed my friends as well.

I just assumed that if you in a school maintained nursery and fulltime it was classed as fulltime education in ofsted eyes :)

I just assumed that if you in a school maintained nursery and fulltime it was classed as fulltime education in ofsted eyes :)

This is what I was told today, as a nursery is classed as "education" as opposed to "care" like a pre school. No doubt get a different answer though when they reply to Pip's email!:rolleyes: