Do we have to have an NVQ3 by 2015?

Do we have to have an NVQ3 by 2015?

i'm not sure if everyone has been told but i was told that yes Ofsted will be requiring it for all childminders :thumbsup:

I asked this question and its not been publised yet just in the pipeline so to speak,

my coordnator said its not law <<<<<<(YET).....

but its good to have under your belt hun so go 4 it

also at the moment a lot of places have free training so get in before the rush starts :thumbsup:

Thanks! But if they could extend the hours in a day to allow me to have the time to do this then I would be OK - have 3 children - working with 6 families - 5 days a week - already go into my family time trying to pull everything together! My children need me too - their homeworks, activities and interests as well as seeing family sometimes! I love learning don't get me wrong - but I physically couldn't manage it. I really do think that if it is introduced there could be childcare crisis!

i'm not sure if everyone has been told but i was told that yes Ofsted will be requiring it for all childminders :thumbsup:

I went to a information meeting, and yes this came up, so its something I will be looking into, having been a chimdminder for 19 years, and just that with no nvq? but I believe I wouldn't have to do nvq level 2, but could go straight onto level 3 ?

I have been to an NMCA ARM today and it was of course discussed again. The date is being moved again and again and now it is 2015.

Nowhere does it mention and NVQ3 just a level 3 qualification and that will include the CCCP and DHC.

Thanks everyone - value the information. But does anyone else feel like me. I really feel that surely they can't demand anything more of us. I think if I give any more time to childminding paperwork my husband would leave home (I already spending evenings and weekends doing it). Thanks again - appreciate your help!

As for my children, I so want to give them my time too - I think this is forgetting what childminders were originally about!

:)

I found the NVQ course very enjoyable and yes there is work to do but the NVQ is about quaility not quantity.

I miss the course, it began a natural part of the weeky routine.

I dont find paperwork to have any impact on my family time - I can spend more time on this forum then paper work daily:)

Out of interest are you in the same situation as me with your own 3 children, working with 6 families and working 5 days a week. When do you get your paperwork done? thks!!

i have 2 kids of my own, will be working 7 days a week some weeks (new mindees are needing weekend care) including overnight care

AND

I'm a single mum, with no OH to help :thumbsup:

AND i'm working on my NVQ

:D

hope that helps

Sorry - should have been more clear - reply was to Fussyelmo - sorry!

doesn't really matter tho does it

if it becomes a requirement by Ofsted you have 2 choices

Do the course

Or find another job

sorry but we have to do what Ofsted decide :thumbsup:

i have 2 kids of my own, will be working 7 days a week some weeks (new mindees are needing weekend care) including overnight care

AND

I'm a single mum, with no OH to help :thumbsup:

AND i'm working on my NVQ

:D

hope that helps

That is a lot and well done. I must be going wrong somewhere, I know a lot of childminders that I know are struggling with it all too - I certainly get extremely little time to myself and I more or less do it single handed because my husband is not here a lot.

I do much of my paperwork when the children are playing quietly.

I used to do my studying at the weekend... I would give myself time when the children went to their dad's house.

I don't do much in the evenings... I think you find once you have it the way you want it, it's not that time consuming.

Yes putting it all in place can be difficult and time consuming, but once it's there it's as difficult as you make it for yourself... as a friend of mine so wisely said today :D

I do much of my paperwork when the children are playing quietly.

I used to do my studying at the weekend... I would give myself time when the children went to their dad's house.

I don't do much in the evenings... I think you find once you have it the way you want it, it's not that time consuming.

Yes putting it all in place can be difficult and time consuming, but once it's there it's as difficult as you make it for yourself... as a friend of mine so wisely said today :D

I do so your point Sarah - it really has been pulling it all together and the conflicting information that has been difficult at times as I so want to do it all right and yes I am finding the simplest way to do things and I must say finding this site has helped. So thanks again! I want to enjoy my children's lives too!

Out of interest are you in the same situation as me with your own 3 children, working with 6 families and working 5 days a week. When do you get your paperwork done? thks!!

Yes I am I have four children 10, 8, 2 and 10 months and work 5 days a week admitley for only four children 2, 5, 10, 12.

I did my nvq while pregnant with my last child my portfolio was due to be in on her due date.

I have my paperwork routine in place it took a bit of planning but I fit it around the children, either when they are sleeping or at free play.

Didnt mean to offend you was just saying the nvq is a worthwhile course I which I would recommend to anyone:)

Its not necessarily an NVQ but a level 3 qualification and this includes the DHC.

The NVQ is more transferable qualifiction.

I have three children (plus 2 dogs and a OH), I mind, am a support minder, I study and I am also secretary on my sons scout group committee and I am also training to become an ICP tutor
I am not sure where or even how I fit it all in but I do - its not easy but it can all be acheived.

Yes I am I have four children 10, 8, 2 and 10 months and work 5 days a week admitley for only four children 2, 5, 10, 12.

I did my nvq while pregnant with my last child my portfolio was due to be in on her due date.

I have my paperwork routine in place it took a bit of planning but I fit it around the children, either when they are sleeping or at free play.

Didnt mean to offend you was just saying the nvq is a worthwhile course I which I would recommend to anyone:)


You certainly didn't offend me at all - sorry you thought that:) It really has been pulling it all together that has been difficult and very time consuming - I completely overhauled everything and I had a lot in place already. I just have so many other things to do when the children are at quiet play - eg preparing for the next activity, clearing the kitchen and keeping up all the requirements. I do a lot of runs a day 2 school runs, toddler groups, playgroups and nursery - so some days my feet don't touch the ground as well as my children's social lives as well. Appreciate your reply, but I also see how many childminders are demoralised at the moment and there will be a good many leaving if it is compulsory to do this. Tks again!

I used to be a nanny in London so I have NNEB. I have been childminding for 1.5yrs now and i am astounded by the amount of work it involves and lack of pay. (esp the huge tax bill I have to pay...grr)

If Ofsted continue with lumping extra things on I'm just going to go back to being a nanny and work for 1 family. (just waiting for my children to grow a little more then it will fit in with me...no school runs etc.)

Becky x

Well, for what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree with you Clorouge, I have 2 children of my own and look after 8 others of differing ages. Even though my own children are older and don't really 'demand' my attention and time, I still like to give it to them and as we all know, family time is very precious.
I feel that the amount of paperwork we do already is far too much, I would always rather spend my time playing with the children I look after, rather than writing about them (as we all would I'm sure) and whilst I understand the need to document development etc, I do still find it a pain. I am very reluctant to do the NVQ as no matter what anyone says, it must surely take up yet more of your eveings/weekends. I had my Ofsted in November and got an outstanding grade, now I am not saying this to get praise just to illustrate that if I can get outstanding without having done the NVQ, why the need to do it! I personally will worry about it when they make it compulsory.
To all who have already done it and are doing it, well done, my comments are not intended to take anything away from your achievements.
Sorry for the rant!
Lou.

admitedly training whilst working 50 hours a wk for 7 families total of 9 children plus my own two does eat into MY time but i learnt to work around it by waking at 5am and spending 2 hours every morning doing study/paperwork or having MY time before devoting the next 10 hours to childminding and the following 3 hours to family time.

it is something oyu have to commit too and learn to manage your time, eventually all childcare providers must hold a required qualification so if those who are struggling to find time then maybe in the future your childrens numbers will reduce allowing you then to have the time to study.

many cm's have given up in Herts but there are many new ones too, i had my qaulifications before I even started work but still took on further training .... why? to improve myself, to keep my mind active, to enusre I keep up to date with information and to be the best childminder i can be regardless of what ofsted reward at inspection.

ive been minding since early 2004 i have 3 children and i have managed to complete the nvq3 the dhc and the ncma quality first award at level 3
i am currently studying for the foundation dergree and i am 300 words off completeing the e123 and e124 i have also enrolled on the e115 and the u212 starting october and february next year
i still manage to find time to do courses with early years and be with my own kids despite working from 6.30 am until 10 pm 3 days a week and overnight 2 nights
my 3 kids are top of their classes and all 3 are part of the gifted and talented scheme (they have to be in the top 10% of their school)
i personnaly would not choose childcare for my children if they did not do courses and have a formal qualification but thats just my choice i totally agree that by 2015 we have to have a level 3

A very emotive issue obviously! I think that this is one that each person can only decide for themselves, you must balance all your training,paperwork etc and ensure that your home and family life does not suffer. There is no right or wrong answer, just a matter of opinion.
xx

This is getting very competitive!!!

I think I have raised quite a debate, but for everyone to have an NVQ 3 is so wrong. If you chose to do that, that's wonderful but unfortunately the best childminders I know, are not the best on the paperwork and it is so sad - unfortunately I have seen childminders very good on paperwork but completely lacking on how they communicate and deal with children - that's the way it is. Everyone to their own. As far as I am concerned, I have to think of my health and my family, I work long hours and give 101 percent to each one of my childminding children and give the same to my children as I want them to remember a very happy home and for the children that come for them to remember their very happy stay here which I have achieved in the last 13 years. As far as I am concerned, (I was talking to my Mum about it today and she totally agreed) something has to give to fit it all in somewhere along the line. I don't want anyone to be offended by that either - it is my opinion and I feel very strongly about it. I have lots in place over and above what is required and I and my parents are more than happy with that.

I think I have raised quite a debate, but for everyone to have an NVQ 3 is so wrong. If you chose to do that, that's wonderful but unfortunately the best childminders I know, are not the best on the paperwork and it is so sad - unfortunately I have seen childminders very good on paperwork but completely lacking on how they communicate and deal with children - that's the way it is. Everyone to their own. As far as I am concerned, I have to think of my health and my family, I work long hours and give 101 percent to each one of my childminding children and give the same to my children as I want them to remember a very happy home and for the children that come for them to remember their very happy stay here which I have achieved in the last 13 years. As far as I am concerned, (I was talking to my Mum about it today and she totally agreed) something has to give to fit it all in somewhere along the line. I don't want anyone to be offended by that either - it is my opinion and I feel very strongly about it. I have lots in place over and above what is required and I and my parents are more than happy with that.


I do agree with you in part Clorogue, studying doesn't suit everyone but the NVQ is evidence based against your practice - so if you have your paperwork in place (as we should for EYFS) and have good knowledge about development, nutrition, safeguarding etc (as we should) its only a matter of putting it down onto paper or putting in your policies etc and discussions with your tutor etc.
I do think there should be qualification requirements across the sector - so why should childminders be any different. We want to be taken seriously, we want to be considered one of the professional workforce and this is one small step towards it. Besides its not an NVQ that is required its a level 3 qualifcation
There are still to many minders out there who 'don't have a clue' (and they don't have this forum to help them;) ) and they are stuck in the days of old, where they have done no training and don't see why they should have to, the days where childminders were considered 'just babysitters'. And in todays age - thats not good enough.
Yes experience counts for much in this job.

Yes I understand peoples time constraints - we are all busy in our own ways, we all have different learning styles and dispositions, and I certainly know that I often bite of more than I can reasonably chew (must learn to say no occasionally lol) - at the moment my poor family think I have been eaten by the books and laptop. I only emerge occasionally for it all - but I am currently trying to hit my deadline.:littleangel:
I can see further down the line which is why I am doing this studying but there are ways and means for people and its about balance.

i also know a childminder who has been minding 19 years who is NOT prepared to do any more training, she when her current kids move up to school she's quitting.

but like any job, to stay on the ball so to speak you have to train,

i do not believe that because someone has been minding XYZ ammount of time that they make the best minders, those who train and stay up to date with current trends are :thumbsup:

i also know a childminder who has been minding 19 years who is NOT prepared to do any more training, she when her current kids move up to school she's quitting.

but like any job, to stay on the ball so to speak you have to train,

i do not believe that because someone has been minding XYZ ammount of time that they make the best minders, those who train and stay up to date with current trends are :thumbsup:

I never said not to train, I do go on training courses and yes they are interesting and you do learn from them, I just feel it is wrong to demand higher level courses. As for your last paragraph. experience counts for a lot, I have seen it so many times. You cannot say that those who train and stay up to date with current trends are the best I'm afraid. Qualifications aren't everything believe me!

I never said not to train, I do go on training courses and yes they are interesting and you do learn from them, I just feel it is wrong to higher level courses. As for your last paragraph. Experience counts for a lot, I have seen it so many times. You cannot say that those who train and stay up to date with current trends are I'm afraid. Qualifications aren't everything believe me!

Again I will agree with your post in part. Qualifications are not the be all but then again neither is experience. I know several very 'experienced' minders who they have many years under their belts do themselves and the children they care for no favours.
On the other hand I know minders - newbies with basic training and those with recent qualifications - such as a level 3 who are fantastic minders and the studying has really opened their eyes and improved their practice no end.

Why is it wrong to aim for a higher level qualifcation? Level 3 is managerial position (which is what we are)

I never said not to train, I do go on training courses and yes they are interesting and you do learn from them, I just feel it is wrong to demand higher level courses. As for your last paragraph. experience counts for a lot, I have seen it so many times. You cannot say that those who train and stay up to date with current trends are the best I'm afraid. Qualifications aren't everything believe me!

I never said that qualifications are EVERYTHING i said that minders who stay up to date with current trends are :thumbsup: and i DO understand experience means alot and is something you can't learn, but training to a higher level is also very important.

We all do training, we all want to do our best, but like i said IF ofsted insist we train to NVQ level 3 then you need to decide what is best for you and your family

work towards it or change jobs :)

Unfortunately, people will make that decision and it could well be to leave and then what - a possible childcare crisis. If Ofsted had got this all right, there wouldn't be a forum like this with the posts that are on it. It is so obvious to see the stress that it is causing and that is no good for the children. People will think is this really worth all this. What about people choosing to look after a child a couple of days week, do you really think that they would go through all this for £3-£5 an hour. I don't think so. As I said, the morale is so low already around this area and that is no good for the children. As I have said before, I am passionate about my job and the children I look after and that is what keeps me grounded.

I applaud all of you for going for the higher qualifications and that is your choice, but it is not suitable for everyone. Also parents should have the choice too who they want to look after their children. Unfortunately it is not just childminders who are struggling, but nurseries too.

If Ofsted had got this all right, there wouldn't be a forum like this with the posts that are on it.

we have this forum as we are all passionate about our jobs and it's good to bounce ideas off each other.
This forum has been running for 3 years and the EYFS only running for 9 months so it's not like this site was started cos we were struggling with the EYFS.

I love my job, and i will do any training that i need to further my career, and that isn't just the courses set by Ofsted.

:D

Well, for what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree with you Clorouge, I have 2 children of my own and look after 8 others of differing ages. Even though my own children are older and don't really 'demand' my attention and time, I still like to give it to them and as we all know, family time is very precious.
I feel that the amount of paperwork we do already is far too much, I would always rather spend my time playing with the children I look after, rather than writing about them (as we all would I'm sure) and whilst I understand the need to document development etc, I do still find it a pain. I am very reluctant to do the NVQ as no matter what anyone says, it must surely take up yet more of your eveings/weekends. I had my Ofsted in November and got an outstanding grade, now I am not saying this to get praise just to illustrate that if I can get outstanding without having done the NVQ, why the need to do it! I personally will worry about it when they make it compulsory.
To all who have already done it and are doing it, well done, my comments are not intended to take anything away from your achievements.
Sorry for the rant!
Lou.

It's nice to hear someone thinking along the same level as me. The most precious gift you can give someone is your time and of course that should be to your family as before you know it they are going their own way. I strive for my children to be emotionally well balanced and from that they achieve well in many areas and I am always there for them. I can honestly look back in my life and say that is one thing I am never going to regret. That is one of the main reasons I went into childminding was to always be there for my children - and to give the children precious memories that come here too. But I think we must all remember that we are all different and that should be valued too.

i went into childminding to be with my own children too

and despite being busy looking after other children, and doing paperwork at night (usually once they are in bed) i can honestly say I AM spending more time with my kids.

I used to work until 9pm at night and by the time i got home my kids would be in bed asleep, so i only got 2 hours each morning during the week and weekends (which were spent doing housework, shopping and very little quality time)

So upon balancing the pro's and con's of each job even with all the paperwork i DO see and spend more time with my children :D and to me thats all that matters :thumbsup:

This debate could obviously go on and on and we all feel differently.....anyway I supposed I better go now and tackle the lunchboxes, cleaning, ironing and washing and of course some paperwork!

admitedly training whilst working 50 hours a wk for 7 families total of 9 children plus my own two does eat into MY time but i learnt to work around it by waking at 5am and spending 2 hours every morning doing study/paperwork or having MY time before devoting the next 10 hours to childminding and the following 3 hours to family time.

it is something oyu have to commit too and learn to manage your time, eventually all childcare providers must hold a required qualification so if those who are struggling to find time then maybe in the future your childrens numbers will reduce allowing you then to have the time to study.

many cm's have given up in Herts but there are many new ones too, i had my qaulifications before I even started work but still took on further training .... why? to improve myself, to keep my mind active, to enusre I keep up to date with information and to be the best childminder i can be regardless of what ofsted reward at inspection.

Please please please tell me you are kidding re the 5am starts. If you aren't then i salute you! I get ME time from staying asleep till 6.30 as i am not a morning person at the best of times.

There are a lot of varying opinions around this subject which i think is understandable given the varying backgrounds childminders come from.

All of us come into the profession as a result of a caring nature and love of children. Some of us are more academic than others and find study, admin etc easier. It is through forums like this that the various personalities work together and help eachother through the obstacles we find in our way.

I personally welcome the professional status that qualifications bring and i am also a supporter of most aspects of the EYFS as i believe it can only be beneficial to me and the children i care for.

If Ofsted in the future DO insist on a formal minimum qualification then it is up to each individual to decide how they can best meet that, or if indeed they want to. What I do know is that the support on this forum will be there for whoever wants to take it up.

As I said, the morale is so low already around this area and that is no good for the children.

I do find that study or other types of training can lift these 'funks' that we all get into. Granted we are not all academically minded or that way inclined but there are ways and means to doing higher level training/study. When I done my NVQ it was homebased with my assessor coming out to me once a month - in the meantime I got on with the unit, used the internet, books, colleagues, this forum etc for support and resources. Now they run the NVQ as a class based learning. The DHC is run as a class based learning in our area as well. I salute the ladies (gents) who are doing the FD/degree through OU - I don't think I could be doing mine without the class base.
To me study and training gives you a fresh outlook on things, helps you to improve/tweak or even just realise that you are doing great. It can give better outcomes for the children and families in your care. It can present you with other opportunities.

I applaud all of you for going for the higher qualifications and that is your choice, but it is not suitable for everyone.
Absolutely but how do they know till they've tried it or even looked into it? Why is it just assumed that its out of reach or not attainable? I NEVER in my wildest dreams though I would be doing a foundation degree - after not doing great at school - many moons ago, being told by so-called experts - the teachers that I would probably be best of 'just having some children' and I believed I would never amount to anything. I still sometimes have to remind myself what I have acheived through sheer determination and hardwork to improve myself and practice and to be able to offer a first class service to parents/children.
I wish people would not do themselves down or believe that they aren't suited to it because.... Check it out first.

Also parents should have the choice too who they want to look after their children. Unfortunately it is not just childminders who are struggling, but nurseries too.
But nurseries have to have qualified staff and by (is it???) 2015 each setting will have to have an EYP on site. Currently though - nursery staff only have to have NVQ 2 minimum and many of these staff are 17/18 year olds who go into childcare thinking its the easy option. Many nurseries have a high turnover of staff.
Parents DO have the choice of where to place their children and they still will have whether the qualification caper comes into force or not. I would like to know that my childs childcarer (and one of mine does go to a darned good childminder) has some sort of formal training - you wouldn't like your child to be taught at school by someone with just experience would you? You wouldn't wanted to be treated by a surgeon without knowing they have some formal training?
I actually think its great that we are being given (as Penny says) the recognition that we rightly deserve - even if its via the qualifications. Its about time we were taken seriously.



I don't think it will cause a childcare crisis - for all the ones who quit - for whatever reason there will be new ones coming in to replace them

Forgot to add - that often when there are groups of people, its quite natural for you all to get into a vicious circle of being down about something. all it takes is one person to be upbeat about something to start changing the outlook.

I understand what you are saying - that you do not want to do a level 3 and that is at the end of the day your choice. But times are changing and moving and like with anything its a case of change and move with it - adapt it to suit you, embrace it or basically get left behind. Gosh I know that sounds really harsh and I don't mean it so - apologies if that upsets anyone (my brain is fading fast tonight - am taking a breather from... yep you guessed my FD assignment lol).

I think continuous education is a big thing in any job these days.
It definately was the case in all jobs I ever had and I have to say I enjoyed it even if it is hard work at times.
I believe that the times where one went to school got a degree or education of some kind and then did a job for 40 years have gone. everyone is doing courses etc etc and I guess childminders are no different in that respect.

I know how good if feels to achieve from studying, having done enough of that before and in the workplace. I still maintain there will be a childcare crisis (one of my friends who is a doctor fully supports my view).

With regard to the Nurseries, I totally agree you are getting 17/18 years olds who really need training in the nursery, but unfortunately generally you are not going to get the right calibre of people in nurseries doing the job simply because of it being underpaid and the volume of paperwork. Viscious circle I know, Nurseries and can't charge more, because parents can't afford more. I know one Nursery Manager who has quit and moved on, another who owns a Nursery (and a very good Nursery too) who was under so much stress she had had enough and was on the verge of moving on and another Lady I know who owns a Nursery seriously thinking of moving on too.

I sincerely think it is wonderful for all you are achieving with your studying and I wish you all the best.

We are all unique in what we deliver and that should be recognised too. I believe there is a sudden drop in childminders and before long Ofsted will have to rethink all that has been brought in without putting more on our shoulders.

I know how good if feels to achieve from studying, having done enough of that before and in the workplace. I still maintain there will be a childcare crisis (one of my friends who is a doctor fully supports my view). Why does it matter that they are a doctor? Surely someone in the childcare sector would be more suitable to pass comment

With regard to the Nurseries, I totally agree you are getting 17/18 years olds who really need training in the nursery, but unfortunately generally you are not going to get the right calibre of people in nurseries doing the job simply because of it being underpaid and the volume of paperwork. Viscious circle I know, Nurseries and can't charge more, because parents can't afford more. I know one Nursery Manager who has quit and moved on, another who owns a Nursery (and a very good Nursery too) who was under so much stress she had had enough and was on the verge of moving on and another Lady I know who owns a Nursery seriously thinking of moving on too.

I sincerely think it is wonderful for all you are achieving with your studying and I wish you all the best.

We are all unique in what we deliver and that should be recognised too. I believe there is a sudden drop in childminders and before long Ofsted will have to rethink all that has been brought in without putting more on our shoulders.

Whats wrong with waiting to see what happens rather than second guessing? In all areas of work there is a constant strive for improvement or else whats the point? You are projecting a very negative position which in itself does not help minders to feel good about themselves or their job.

This forum is not a soapbox for indiviuals views on Government policy etc. Instead it is a place for advice to be sought, experience to be shared and help to be offerred and requested. If there is a childcare crisis as you put it then presumably people, policies and businesses will adapt or fail. The people who bother to strive to better themselves in their chosen profession will be the ones who succeed as opposed to those who want to cling on to the past.

History shows us the pathways which have been forged in ALL areas of work, those that are successful have grasped hold of new technology and ideas and projected themselves forward, sometimes in the shadows of others who thought their ways were futile and bound to fail.

I really don't intend to offend anyone and I am sorry if I have - I will close this subject - I really do value the advice given on the forum and the help and yes you are all doing a wonderful job!

I have just completed my NVQ3. Being a vocational qualification has meant a lot more paperwork for my assessor as they apparently don't want huge folders to mark!

I have not found it hard and actually wish I'd done the Foundation Degree which may have stretched me a little more.

I can't imagine anyone on here not managing the actual course, finding the time may be another issue!

At the moment, they are looking at all early years workers being qualified to Level 3 but there's no specific reference to childminders is there?

Thanks! But if they could extend the hours in a day to allow me to have the time to do this then I would be OK - have 3 children - working with 6 families - 5 days a week - already go into my family time trying to pull everything together! My children need me too - their homeworks, activities and interests as well as seeing family sometimes! I love learning don't get me wrong - but I physically couldn't manage it. I really do think that if it is introduced there could be childcare crisis!

Hi similar situation 4 kids - working with 9 families - hubby childminds too. We both started nvq3 online with Willows training in Sept 08. As it's an online course we can be flexible about the time we spend on it. It has fitted in very well considering we also had to implement EYFS at same time. As for paperwork it's all online - so if you're computer literate it's much faster than writing out (eg. using cut and paste from info on web). We take turns between studying, EYFS and running our family. All being well should complete it June/July 09. I'm thinking of doing level 4 next - he's had enough!

If this happens then I will definatley say goodbye to CM, they can't keep moving the goal posts.

it's natural progression clare, and in a way it opens so many new doors to us work wise :thumbsup: