Yes, I normally hate seeing that for a title too........... especially when it's of the "can I do this? someone please say I can, cos I'm just gonna keep coming back until someone does" variety. :(

But, this is an odd one. It's not for me. I'm sort of curious and also want to pass on the answer to a CM friend who initially raised the question - she might be interested in getting a contract out of this if it's allowed. And all I say is "good luck" to her :p - all will be revealed..............

A CM friend just called and asked if I knew if she'd be allowed to do this. I thought she was winding me up at first, but it's from a genuine childcare.co.uk parent profile (which I had to check cos I didn't believe her.) Mum wants care for 2 sets of twins, aged 16 months and 6 months (yes, really. :p ). Presumably to start simultaneously. Now I know you can argue "exceptional circumstances" to have a pair of twins under 1yo. But would Ofsted allow 4 EY siblings with the same CM? It's obviously going to be "new business" rather than "continuity of care" (if you can put any store by these phrases, since they never appear in EYFS anyway :huh:) OTOH, as "exceptional circumstances" go, I'm wracking my brain to think of anything that could be any more exceptional.

The only answer I could come up with was that it would need a CM who has an assistant in place. But a CM who had an existing assistant and 4 EY places available would presumably be haemorraging money. :p

Any thoughts? :confused:

This is unusual! Common sense leads me to think yes under exceptional circumstances. But as everyone knows common sense doesn't really come into these things! I'm interested to see what other people say in relation to this. Sounds like a lot of hard work though, it's not something I would even consider, your friend must be a saint :-)

My first thought is that when you have this family you would be hard pushed to take on other children so could the childminder be their nanny on the days that are needed?

It is true that it is an exceptional circumstance and I would doubt Ofsted would be concerned if they were the only children that the childminder looked after, however if she has her own children or other mindees then I assume Ofsted may think differently, particularly with being new business.

As always with this question none of us can really give a definitive answer.

The EYFS is so open to interpretation. When I needed a similar question answered Ofsted will NOT give any kind of an answer other to refer back to the EYFS which I had read, a million times but still wasn't sure. Anyway, in this case I would do it, IF I had 4 EY's spaces available but tbh how many CM's have that many vacancies.
I would do it, RA it all and be prepared to argue my case with Ofsted about it should they query it. I guess we will all have different views on it.

xxxx

Ooh, tricky one.

I would say it's something Ofsted should be forced to give a definite reply to, rather than giving the usual "refer to the EYFS" speech.

Reading the EYFS a cm working by themselves wouldn't be able to do it as they don't have 4 spaces to take on new children. It wouldn't be allowed for 2 siblings when there is only one space, so really shouldn't be allowed for 4 children when there are only 3 spaces - the numbers change but the principal is the same.

But, where on earth is a parent with 4 EYs children supposed to go if they want their children looked after by a childminder? I guess it would probably need to a be a childminder who was prepared to take on an assistant just to cover the 4th child, but what if they couldn't find anyone prepared to do that?

Then of course if a cm does take them on they have to prove that they are providing adequate care for all 4 children. What if an inspector judged that the cm wasn't meeting the needs of all the children? As someone who likes having 4 EYs children, even I'd baulk at the idea of 2 sets of twins so close in age!

It'll be interesting to hear if you get a definite answer.

This is unusual! Common sense leads me to think yes under exceptional circumstances. But as everyone knows common sense doesn't really come into these things! I'm interested to see what other people say in relation to this. Sounds like a lot of hard work though, it's not something I would even consider, your friend must be a saint :-)

That's what I thought. It also occurs to me that saints invariably end up martyred. :p

Wow, Bunyip - I was shocked to see that you had started a variations thread! :p

Echoing others:

I would feel confident in arguing that this case is exceptional and a variation to care for all these siblings at once is justifiable.

The children would be used to being cared for together, but what a challenge for the carer!

Other options that might work: nanny-ing as suggested, or sending each set of twins to a local CM whose 3rd EY mindee is 3+ so that each LO has the chance of a bit more attention than usual? (If indeed 2 such places exist!)

My thought would be the risk using all my places and more for only one family. If they give notice then that is all your work gone.

I think this Mum needs to get a Nanny or use a Nursery to be honest. Childminders are not set up fro this even if you work with an Assistant it would still be a big chunk of your income for one family.

It would also cost the family a huge amount. It would be £4500 a month if they came to me and to be honest they could employ a good Nanny for half that. That is what I would be advising them to do.

To get round the variation rules, I would take on the 2 older children now and get them settled and then take on the other set of twins and play the "sibling" rule trump card. Taking on 2 babies is no different than if 2 existing mindees mum's both have babies and want them to start back at the same time.
I agree with others though that a) you would have to be mad and b) it would be cheaper to get a Nanny

No - she can't take 4 new business children - full stop.

She can take 3 if she has 3 under 5 spaces.

If she takes on an assistant -> first aid - dBS - DBS update service - EY2 - planning permission - Ofsted suitability letter - enough floor space -> then she can have 4 ...

Hth :D

I would say yes. No be wants to split a family up

If it was me I'd write to the dfe and ask them, they usually send good replies. I wouldn't like to guess at an answer.

In the old days when ofsted gave variations I knew a childminder who was given a variation to take on twins that would take her to four ey children because there were no other childminders available (the development worker had to write to ofsted to confirm this) so going on that logic would lead me to believe the answer would be yes but we know that it's never that simple and open to interpretation by individual inspectors.

a few years ago I had an enquiry for two children one 2 and brother 3 years old, I could take 1 but would be over my numbers with the other one. I rang mr o up and he said no I wouldn't be able to do it, however he told me next time tell parent to bring one for few weeks then do a variation for other one don't think he should of said this lol