I hope I am posting this in the correct place. Also, apologies if this has been mentioned on here before.

I have a question relating to ratios for under ones. I understand that I can have three under fives including my own and only one of those can be under one. However, I have a nine month old hoping to start late August/early September but already have a baby who turns one early October. I also have one child of my own (2yrs old). Neither minded children are siblings. Also, it is worth mentioning that I only care for under fives so would have no other minded children.

The new child will be three days a week. The existing child is freelance so sometimes he is with me anywhere between 3-6 hours a day, five days a week, or other weeks I may only have him once or not at all.

So... I would be looking to have two unrelated under ones for 4-6 hours a day three days a week for six weeks at the very most. (After six weeks, the freelance baby will turn one).

I spoke to Ofsted today and they were very vague and non-committal. It seems that I can do this but would have to demonstrate very good reasons for doing so, namely continuity of care for the existing freelance child, and to put together a plan of action which I'm happy to do and intended to do anyway (will include info on how I intend to care for both under ones, equipment, space, emergency procedures, etc). Oh and also would need to share this with parents which again I intended to do.

My questions are:
1. Have I understood Ofsted correctly?
2. Has anyone else had two non-related under ones?
3. If Ofsted inspect me and decide that they do not agree with my planning and risk assessments for this period, what would happen? Would they tell me to let one child go or could I loose my registration over it?

Thanks for the advice!

If the new baby was your own or a sibling of an existing child then it would be ok but it isn't so then it is a no. It is unfortunate that the baby you now have is not regular - could the parents of the existing child help out in any way by using relatives if you were needed and you had taken on the new baby?

If the new baby was your own or a sibling of an existing child then it would be ok but it isn't so then it is a no. It is unfortunate that the baby you now have is not regular - could the parents of the existing child help out in any way by using relatives if you were needed and you had taken on the new baby?

I actually thought you could... because in the 'old days' before the latest set of rules where we now do our own variations many of us had the condition 'may look after 2 under the age of one' as a clause on our certificates.... so I would therefore assume if you did a RA etc it would be fine because the OP is looking for a new child, not continuity in any way....

But Im not 100% sure as with anything Ofsted related they change the goal posts regularly :rolleyes:

As far as i know u can have 2 under ones but just document it in your paperwork what assessments u have done and precautions etc you will do etc.
However reading ur note again it looks like u will have 4 under 5s at some point.
Again as far as i understand it the same rule applies. But since the children are not related and continuity of care is usually the accepted reason for 4 under 5s u may be pushing it. Depends how you word your documentation.
Unless i have misunderstood ur note.
Just right down documentation to back ur decisions and if u are queried you can say that the guidance is u clear. Document ur conversation with ofsted and how u understand it.
Hope it helps

Ah! I did misread what u said.
So- u can have 2 under 1s but just justify it in documentation.
We could as another respondant noted have it noted on registration that we could have 2 under 1s. Goodness knows why Govt and Ofsted have made it so unclear now. Very wooly it is. But yet again just make ur own assessment re whether you can do it physically and document it. Then b prepared to stand your ground with an inspector.
If these idgits dont make it clear what are we to do?

Thank you everyone for your replies. Christine, that is what I thought at first too:

EYFS 3.40 ‘If a childminder can demonstrate to parents and/or carers and inspectors that the individual needs of all the children are being met, then exceptions to the usual ratios can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby.’

In my case, neither child in question is my own nor are they siblings.

However, the EYFS also states under 3.29 ‘Exceptionally, and where the quality of care and safety and security of children is maintained, exceptions to the ratios may be made.’

Tahsalee and heidi, I think you're right about it being okay as long as you have supporting documentation, etc. But just to be on the safe side, I have emailed Ofsted (in addition to my call this morning). Hopefully I'll get something clear back and in writing. Will post the reply if I get one.

I personally think I can manage it and can demonstrate this. What I find weird is that if the rule is strictly only one under one then technically I couldn't have them both until the day the elder one turned one but he wouldn't be much, if at all, different from the day before! (sigh)

I have also talked to the freelance mum to give her advanced warning in case I can't do those three days through September.

Thanks again!

I thought this info may help I have just been e mailed a response from ofsted re having an exception and was sent this response:

With regards to the numbers of children that can be looked after we have put together a factsheet:*The numbers and ages of children that providers on the Early Years and Childcare Registers may care for. The EYFS must be adhered by at all times, and if you have any questions regarding increasing numbers, you should direct them to your Early Years Co-ordinator within the Local Authority. Ofsted no longer grant variations to the amount of numbers you can look after, as it is down to the provider to ensure they meet the EYFS.

*

Hia:

Me again.
I asked ofsted about variation in numbers in the tail end of last year. They said the same to me as they did to you and what i relayed in my response.
I am unsure what sanction the local authority can give you to vary your numbers bearing in mind ofsted are now the only deciding body on quality etc.
Our local authority have just dispersed all our early years workers so there is now no early years department or co-ordinator as such. I know - its a mess! So no dedicated cm support.
As i said- all very woolly!
Looking suspiciously like on the brink of agency working to me but of course we will be the last to know.

Good luck

Thank you everyone for your replies. Christine, that is what I thought at first too:

EYFS 3.40 ‘If a childminder can demonstrate to parents and/or carers and inspectors that the individual needs of all the children are being met, then exceptions to the usual ratios can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby.’

In my case, neither child in question is my own nor are they siblings.

However, the EYFS also states under 3.29 ‘Exceptionally, and where the quality of care and safety and security of children is maintained, exceptions to the ratios may be made.’

Tahsalee and heidi, I think you're right about it being okay as long as you have supporting documentation, etc. But just to be on the safe side, I have emailed Ofsted (in addition to my call this morning). Hopefully I'll get something clear back and in writing. Will post the reply if I get one.

I personally think I can manage it and can demonstrate this. What I find weird is that if the rule is strictly only one under one then technically I couldn't have them both until the day the elder one turned one but he wouldn't be much, if at all, different from the day before! (sigh)

I have also talked to the freelance mum to give her advanced warning in case I can't do those three days through September.

Thanks again!

Just had a look and 3.29 applies to group settings not childminders

You cannot take on 2 babies under 1 for new business unless - as in the rules of the EYFS - one of them is a sibling or one of them is your own baby.

Ofsted will only ever direct you to the rules - and this is what the rules say quite clearly.

Childminders who used to have a '2 under 1' clause on their certificates had it removed for exactly this reason - so they could not have 2 under 1 any more for new business.

If you take on 2 under 1 for new business and you are inspected or a complaint is made against you then it is likely that you will be told to send one of the babies home immediately and cease caring for them - while the inspector sits with you and waits for the parent to come - as happened to another childminder last week in the same circumstances.

I am sorry if this is not what you want to hear but I don't want you to make a mistake xx

You cannot take on 2 babies under 1 for new business unless - as in the rules of the EYFS - one of them is a sibling or one of them is your own baby.

Ofsted will only ever direct you to the rules - and this is what the rules say quite clearly.

Childminders who used to have a '2 under 1' clause on their certificates had it removed for exactly this reason - so they could not have 2 under 1 any more for new business.

If you take on 2 under 1 for new business and you are inspected or a complaint is made against you then it is likely that you will be told to send one of the babies home immediately and cease caring for them - while the inspector sits with you and waits for the parent to come - as happened to another childminder last week in the same circumstances.

I am sorry if this is not what you want to hear but I don't want you to make a mistake xx

Am I right in thinking that you can still have twins under 1 if it doesn't take you over your numbers

Am I right in thinking that you can still have twins under 1 if it doesn't take you over your numbers

As long as it doent take you over your 3 under 5's then yes or no if you were having 3 under 1 :thumbsup:

You cannot take on 2 babies under 1 for new business unless - as in the rules of the EYFS - one of them is a sibling or one of them is your own baby.

Ofsted will only ever direct you to the rules - and this is what the rules say quite clearly.

Childminders who used to have a '2 under 1' clause on their certificates had it removed for exactly this reason - so they could not have 2 under 1 any more for new business.

If you take on 2 under 1 for new business and you are inspected or a complaint is made against you then it is likely that you will be told to send one of the babies home immediately and cease caring for them - while the inspector sits with you and waits for the parent to come - as happened to another childminder last week in the same circumstances.

I am sorry if this is not what you want to hear but I don't want you to make a mistake xx

If you have your own baby under 1 already & you got an enquiry for a baby under 1 as new business could you take the new child on or is your under 1 space already taken by your own baby?

Hope that makes sense!

Thanks

Kirsty x

No I don't think you can but could if it was the other way round

Hello everyone,

I did get a reply from Ofsted and they pointed me in the direction of this document - Ofsted | Factsheet: childcare - The numbers and ages of children that providers on the Early Years and Childcare Registers may care for (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-numbers-and-ages-of-children-childminders-may-care-for) - the same one mentioned by cloud9.

Alongside the exception regarding sibling babies or the childminders own baby, it also states that:
Paragraph 3.29 in the EYFS also allows childminders to care for more children, including babies, in the early years age group through an overarching ‘exceptional circumstances’ statement. In each case, before agreeing to take on a baby or older child as an exception, the childminder must make sure they can continue to meet the needs of all the children who attend, including making sure children are safe and that they receive an enjoyable and challenging learning experience. The childminder must make this decision in relation to each child they care for as an exception. Paragraph 3.29 does not give the permission to operate with more children in the early years age group at all times without an assessment as to whether an exception is appropriate.

Later in the document it explains what you must take in to consideration like how you will meet the EYFS learning and development requirements and length of time you are providing care, etc.

I also came across this document provided by this website - http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/Resources/Childminder%20variations%20from%2009.2012.pdf

This one states that 3.29 is the most important reference in regards to ratio exceptions because it allows you to make variations to ratios other than those set out in requirements 3.39-3.41.

So, it seems that as long as any variation is an exception and not normal practice and you are able to demonstrate that the needs of the children are being met, then it is fine to decide for yourself what variations you make. However, I have no doubt that if an inspector disagreed with your reasons for the variation or if you were unable to show the well-being of the children was not negatively impacted or, for example, you couldn't meet the EYFS space requirements for the children then the type of action taken as described by sarah707 would be implemented. That said, I don't agree at all that the rules are clear. The normal ratios are clear but variation rules aren't at all straight forward (and if they were, Ofsted would not have had to create a separate 10 page document explaining them).

I have also read that local authorities have their own rules and Ofsted mentioned in their email that any further queries should be directed to them. I am meeting with my representative tomorrow so will discuss with her. My main concern is not letting my parents down - the new client I didn't advertise for, she is a referral from my local authority who knew I already had a freelance baby under one. But, at the same time, I don't want to get in trouble myself so will not be going ahead with an exception unless I have the backing of my local authority. As far as Ofsted go though, it seems although they do not under any circumstances grant variations anymore - variations can still be made but are the responsibility of the childminder.

The variations for under 1's is only allowed if its continuity of care!!! So either you're already caring for an under 1 then have your own baby. You're caring for an under 1 then you're asked to care for the sibling of a child you already care for.

A very good CM friend of mine took on 2 under 1's thinking the same as you. Ofsted didn't care how many risk assessments she'd done, how in depth they were or how well looked after the kids were. All they cared about was that she had completely disregarded the rules on ratios.

It was a very horrible time for her, she was downgraded to unsatisfactory & had a huge battle on her hands.

I would seriously advise you not to do it!

If it is only 3 days the new baby would take you over numbers can you not just book some holiday? Then you wouldnt have the existing baby on those days and would be free to have the new one. Then have them both together as soon as the eldest turns 1. That is what I would do. Either that or tell the mum of the new baby she cannot start straight away. I wouldnt decide to variate anyway when so many people agree its wrong. Its not worth the risk :)