Hypocrites.....?

[stardust]

I have just had a phone call from a friend and I am a bit annoyed because we got into a heated discussion regarding cm and our own children. Basically she thinks I'm over the top because my son has a learning diary and a peg with his photo and name. Okay I agree at 9 months Ryan really doesn't care but I don't see why he should be singled out because he is 'the childminders son'. Infact I would go as far as saying its actually a form of discrimination. At 2 they will know the difference and will feel left out when the other children have their pegs and can look at their learning diaries. I also feel it will encourage him to hang is peg up.
I think they should all be treated the same and Ofsted should expect us to have learning diaries for our own under 5 children after all the only difference really is that mummy is the 'teacher' and were not paid for them.

I may be over thinking this but it made me so angry! Grrr

But Ofsted preach about inclusion, to my understanding inclusive means all, everything or everyone. Them not caring about cm's children is hardly inclusive practice is it??.

[loocyloo]

my own children were/are always treated the same as minded children ... individual towel ( when i used them ), LJ, coat pegs, self registration etc. the only thing they don't have is a drawer for all their belongings, ( but they are 6 & 9 now! )

i always felt that if i was making all the effort ( esp with LJ ) with mindees, why not do DD too. it also meant i have one to show parents with no confidentiality issues! when DD was at nursery & started school, i took her LJ to show and the teachers were interested.

i didn't keep a daily diary though! :D

[EmmaReed84]

I do all the same things with DS as I do with mindees except for LJ's and obs. Although I do mentally do it in my head.

I think each to their own, so what if one minder wants to do everything the same and another wants to keep DS as DS and mindees as mindees...I would have just laughed at friend and said "Well hey ho, everyone is different" why get so heated over it?

[rickysmiths]

I must say that my children hung their coats up with my minded children because they all hung their coats on the low pegs we put up for our children. In those days (17 years ago) it would not of occurred to me to put photos on their pegs this is a relatively new thing. I do now have a peg rack with spaces for the mindees photos and prob would put my children on there if they were younger (now 19 and 17!) Yes they always all had their own towels and I still do that even though they are older!.

I would not do any of the paperwork for my own child nor would I dream of sharing it if I did with Ofsted. My family is my family not my work. I have always kept scrapbooks for my own children as I did for mindees pre EYFS however I wouldn't dream of linking into EYFS or doing the developmental work I do on mindees on my children if they were that age. I knew my own children. The mindees have no concept of what an LJ is until they are much older anyway so why would my children feel left out if I didn't do these things for them?

My children were always included 100% but they I think thought it was great to have friends to play with all the time they had no perception that it was my way of earning a living until they were much older.

I looked after and still do look after my mindees as if they are my own children and part of a family within EYFS but very much in a home.

I actually find it quite sad that so many childminders seem to be aspiring to be alternative nurseries and with more and more dedicated 'Playrooms' may loose site of the Home Based side of childminding.

Paperwork is very important but I think should be kept to a min and personally not extend to my own children.

[stardust]

I do all the same things with DS as I do with mindees except for LJ's and obs. Although I do mentally do it in my head.

I think each to their own, so what if one minder wants to do everything the same and another wants to keep DS as DS and mindees as mindees...I would have just laughed at friend and said "Well hey ho, everyone is different" why get so heated over it?

I know I shouldn't let it bother me.
We are 'those' friends you know the ones that really shouldn't be friends because they can't have a conversation without having a debate?
Normally I couldn't care less but the last years or so she has become so 'up' herself. It's all a competition to her for example-
Her son is 2 months older than mine and I got the 'I gave birth with just gas and air blah blah' and then go annoyed when I had a shorter labour, no pain relief and was out the same day.

She's always doing the my sons doing this can yours do it, my other half has brought me this, guess what, guess what. arghhhh!

Towards the end of the above convo about inclusion she said 'I think it's pathetic, your being over the top and trying to score brownie points. My way is better so your should stop doing all the extra stuff and do it my way as it the BEST way'

For those of you who can remember patsy from absolutely fabulous that is her to a T!

She's one of those cm's that give the rest of us a bad name.
Stays in all day every day with the children, never does activities.
Rang me the other day to discuss Jeremy Kyle. When I said I don't have the tv on when mindees are here I got 'why not, they have a whole toy room to entertain them selves in'

After reading this back I sound like I'm b****ing bout her, maybe I am I'm so annoyed at her comments.
Can't ignore her though she knows where I live......

[stardust]

I must say that my children hung their coats up with my minded children because they all hung their coats on the low pegs we put up for our children. In those days (17 years ago) it would not of occurred to me to put photos on their pegs this is a relatively new thing. I do now have a peg rack with spaces for the mindees photos and prob would put my children on there if they were younger (now 19 and 17!) Yes they always all had their own towels and I still do that even though they are older!.

I would not do any of the paperwork for my own child nor would I dream of sharing it if I did with Ofsted. My family is my family not my work. I have always kept scrapbooks for my own children as I did for mindees pre EYFS however I wouldn't dream of linking into EYFS or doing the developmental work I do on mindees on my children if they were that age. I knew my own children. The mindees have no concept of what an LJ is until they are much older anyway so why would my children feel left out if I didn't do these things for them?

My children were always included 100% but they I think thought it was great to have friends to play with all the time they had no perception that it was my way of earning a living until they were much older.

I looked after and still do look after my mindees as if they are my own children and part of a family within EYFS but very much in a home.

I actually find it quite sad that so many childminders seem to be aspiring to be alternative nurseries and with more and more dedicated 'Playrooms' may loose site of the Home Based side of childminding.

Paperwork is very important but I think should be kept to a min and personally not extend to my own children.

I didnt mean planning, next steps ect but i do a scrapbook (learning diary) full of pictures for my son. I have a mindee about 6 week older than him and chances are he will grow up with L so if L has a book filled with all the fun activities and his achievements, Ryan will feel left out he doesn't have one as well. I often get the learning diaries out and sit down with the children to look through them, but harsh if I can't include Ryan in the activity.
I suppose I see it that way because I am very emotional, thinking and sentimental person so worrie about how others feel ect.

But I do think Ofsted should be checking to see if your children (under 5) are included with pegs, any displays ect. How can you be an inclusive practice if you single out 1 child- fine the child is your own, but things that are visible for the child to see such as pegs and displays they should be included in.
Plus by ensuring they are included like this helps promote positive self image and self esteem.
It's bad enough that they come last when things need to be done or another child needs attention.

[Mouse]

But I do think Ofsted should be checking to see if your children (under 5) are included with pegs, any displays ect. How can you be an inclusive practice if you single out 1 child- fine the child is your own, but things that are visible for the child to see such as pegs and displays they should be included in.
Plus by ensuring they are included like this helps promote positive self image and self esteem.
It's bad enough that they come last when things need to be done or another child needs attention.

But Ofsted are there to regulate us as childminders, not as parents. It is up to you, as a parent, to promote positive self image and self esteem in your child. You shouldn't need Ofsted there to check you do it.

I have always include my own children if they want to be included. For example, when we have photos of mindees on the wall, my children chose whether or not they wanted their pictures up. DD always chose to be included, DS didn't want to be. I would not have welcomed Ofsted telling my I had to include them.

[loocyloo]

i wouldn't want ofsted telling me what i should & shouldn't do with my children, i include them in everything because i want to, and i wouldn't/didn't show MY childrens LJ/scrapbooks to ofsted.

all the children are treated as if they are my own and they are a part of my family, and in that respect, what goes for one, goes for them all. i used to have a spare room that was used for mindees sleeps ( and occaisonal guests ) but it was decorated & furnished with the children in mind.

[stardust]

Ofsted are here to look at us and our practice including inclusion.
At no point did i mean to tell you what to do as a parent but cm's children are part of the cm setting so cm's should be including them same as nursery staff working with their children have to include them and the same with teachers and so on.
When I said about self image and self esteem I mentioned it as a positive point that it is a benefit including your own children in the setting.

I don't necessarily mean wanting to see learning diaries and paperwork either. The learning diary was me making a point about something I do.

I just think that they should expect to see things like pegs and photo's/ pictures on displays that show that every child including the cm's child is made part of the setting in order to show full inclusion.

I apologize if anyone got the wrong end of the stick and thought that I meant that ofsted should be telling people how to parent, That was not what I meant in the slightest.

[singingcactus]

As with others, this is my childs home, not his care setting. I will not be told what and how to do things with my own children. I stay at home with them rather than using a care setting for them exactly so that I, and only I, control what happens to my children.

I do not need someone coming into my home to check that my own children feel important and are included in everything. Like keeping lj to inform myself of how my child is doing in my care?? Why would I? What purpose does that serve? Of course my child has photographs of himself up and around the house, of course I kept a development book for his baby years, but for the life of me I cannot think why I would need to keep a written record for myself to inform myself of what my next steps are for my own child. It is nothing to do with being hypocrites, the idea of being told by OFSTED how to parent my child in my home is beyond ridiculous.

[snufflepuff]

I can see where you care coming from, and if you want to keep a learning journal for your child then that's fine- each to their own. Personally though, I'd never do it. I get fed up enough with paperwork as it is, I don't want to make extra work for myself! I keep all my son's art work in a big box, something I'd do whether I was minding or not. I'd hate it if ofsted wanted to see paperwork or pass judgement on anything to do with my own son- this is his home and I am his Mum first and foremost, not his childminder.

[Mouse]

Ofsted are here to look at us and our practice including inclusion.
At no point did i mean to tell you what to do as a parent but cm's children are part of the cm setting so cm's should be including them same as nursery staff working with their children have to include them and the same with teachers and so on.
When I said about self image and self esteem I mentioned it as a positive point that it is a benefit including your own children in the setting.

I don't necessarily mean wanting to see learning diaries and paperwork either. The learning diary was me making a point about something I do.

I just think that they should expect to see things like pegs and photo's/ pictures on displays that show that every child including the cm's child is made part of the setting in order to show full inclusion.

I apologize if anyone got the wrong end of the stick and thought that I meant that ofsted should be telling people how to parent, That was not what I meant in the slightest.

I can see what you're saying, but I would imagine most childminders do include their own young children in exactly the same way as they do the minded children when it comes to activities, photos on display etc. It's what happens naturally and it doesn't need Ofsted to regulate us to make sure it does.

It's lovely that you want to treat your son like a minded children, but it's not always possible, or necessary. Be happy that you are doing what you think is best for him, but don't assume that because others don't agree they are doing anthing wrong. As your own child gets older, you may actually find that he would prefer to be treated as your son, rather than a mindee and that it makes him feel more special to be treated that little bit differently :thumbsup:

[francinejayne]

My DS is 3 and I have asked him if he would like a diary like the other pre-school children - he sees me writing theirs and asks who's is it and they all like looking at the photos in them. His response that he was old enough to write his own diary so I bought him a little pad and he fills it in himself now (he cannot write by the way!)

I take loads of photos of all of the children, I only print off what I need to.

I made the decision last year not to have displays in my house (it is my home, not a nursery setting) so in that respect they are all treated fairly, however I do have my son's art work that he does at pre-school up above my hubbies' desk - I don't think this means I am not inclusive to the cm children!

I have enough paperwork to do without adding to it by completing a file for my son.

I understand why you want to do this for your child, however I do not think it is necessary at all, and by not doing it does definitely not mean that I am not being inclusive!

[onceinabluemoon]

But I do think Ofsted should be checking to see if your children (under 5) are included with pegs, any displays ect. How can you be an inclusive practice if you single out 1 child- fine the child is your own, but things that are visible for the child to see such as pegs and displays they should be included in.
Plus by ensuring they are included like this helps promote positive self image and self esteem.
It's bad enough that they come last when things need to be done or another child needs attention.

The day ofsted start checking whether I'm including my own children will be the day I leave childminding.

Sorry but I agree with your friend, you are being OTT. Childminding is your business, Ryan is your family. I would not put my own son on the same footing as a mindee as they are far more important to me and know it. By treating Ryan the same as a mindee you are not promoting self image and self esteem, you are telling him he is no more important in your life than a minded child. That could actually have the opposite effect than the one you are hoping to achieve. There are other ways of boosting his self esteem, maybe allow him to feel special in his own home?

You are right however that nursery nurses and teachers have to treat their children the same if they work with them. This is because their children are at work and they have to abide by the work's rules. Your child is in his own home.

[moogster1a]

I think you're being OTT.
You really think OFSTED should be checking my DC have their own pegs/ LJ's etc. I'm not their CM. I'm their mother.
As much as I care for my mindees, they know I'm not their mother, the same way my DC know that I am. They are all included in everything but TBH I think it's unfair on your own child to treat them exactly the same as the mindees. They share us enough, they need to know they're special. Therefore, their coats etc. go with the families stuff, not in the pile of mindees stuff.

[stardust]

As with others, this is my childs home, not his care setting. I will not be told what and how to do things with my own children. I stay at home with them rather than using a care setting for them exactly so that I, and only I, control what happens to my children.

I do not need someone coming into my home to check that my own children feel important and are included in everything. Like keeping lj to inform myself of how my child is doing in my care?? Why would I? What purpose does that serve? Of course my child has photographs of himself up and around the house, of course I kept a development book for his baby years, but for the life of me I cannot think why I would need to keep a written record for myself to inform myself of what my next steps are for my own child. It is nothing to do with being hypocrites, the idea of being told by OFSTED how to parent my child in my home is beyond ridiculous.

Wow, thats an angry comment.
Not quite sure where you got the being told what to do in your own home from all I said was that I FEEL that all children including a cm's own child should be taken into account when covering the inclusion part. I didn't say you HAD to do learning diaries or planning for your own child. I said that it should be visually obvious that your child is included.

I simply feel that my child should be treated like all the other children and be given the same learning and opportunities as all my mindee's not necessarily treated as a mindee.
Fair enough if you don't agree thats your opinion, this thread wasn't started so people could get all upset and angry. It was simply about me and a friend clashing on views.

And at no point was/ am I saying that anyone who doesn't share my view is wrong at all this is simply the reader picking things out that isn't there.

From now on I will have no opinion or views and I will be leaving the forum a lot of the posts have been written in a way that can cause one to feel 'ganged up on' just like netmums. I have no problem with critism but the way it has been put across and the way it's been accused of things that wasn't said of ment.

[moogster1a]

i don't think people are getting angry with you, I think we're just agreeeing with your friend!
best way to settle differences of opinion is the go to am I being unreasonable on mumsnet. You have to be brave though 'cos you never get everyone agreeing!

[loocyloo]

it would be boring if we all had the same opinions ;) :laughing:

i don't think anyone was saying that ofsted shoudl tell us how to parent our own children, just acknowledge that we include all children.

my children know they are special and i'm mummy not their childminder, but i didn't want them to feel i was doing any less for them, than i was for any minded child! my own children love looking through their scrapbooks ( which, to be honest, i would have done anyway ... done them for over 20 yrs ever since i was a nanny! ) i didn't keep LJs to see what next steps etc were needed, it was more out of curiosity, and was fascinating to look back on and see their development! ( and once LJs became part of life, DDs was useful way of testing ideas of recording etc out! )

[stardust]

i don't think people are getting angry with you, I think we're just agreeeing with your friend!
best way to settle differences of opinion is the go to am I being unreasonable on mumsnet. You have to be brave though 'cos you never get everyone agreeing!

It's not the not agreeing its the making out I mean things when I don't that upset me.
I've not called anyone a bad person or said they don't do their job.
Apart from friend who I have seen in practise and she's shocking.
It wasn't a dig at anyone but now I wish I hadnt written anything because to me it feels just like I have posted a 'am i being unreasonable' post when I said I am probably over thinking it but I don't need to be told my son will suffer because I'm trying to make sure he's fully included.

[moogster1a]

I think you need to take a deep breath. No one said your son was suffering!! you seem to be getting very worked up when if you read the posts back no one has actually said anything cruel to you at all.

[JCrakers]

I feel as long as a child is included in all activities I wouldnt do any paperwork or LJ as I have 6 ey children to do and its just extra un-needed paperwork :D
I dont feel my ds or dd would have felt less included because i didnt do this and they always knew it is my job and i do it for the children i care for so their parents can see what they have been doing

But if you have time to do this for your child then thats nice for him :D

[onceinabluemoon]

It's not the not agreeing its the making out I mean things when I don't that upset me.
I've not called anyone a bad person or said they don't do their job.
Apart from friend who I have seen in practise and she's shocking.
It wasn't a dig at anyone but now I wish I hadnt written anything because to me it feels just like I have posted a 'am i being unreasonable' post when I said I am probably over thinking it but I don't need to be told my son will suffer because I'm trying to make sure he's fully included.

Okay, so that was me and I was trying to give you some advice and at no time told you he would suffer, however you seem to be throwing your dummy out of the pram. You need to stop taking things so personally when people don't tell you exactly what you want to hear.

As for leaving the forum, if thats what you wanted to do you would have done it, instead you have done the whole flouncing out and slamming the door for attention thing. :rolleyes:

[singingcactus]

Wow, thats an angry comment.

From now on I will have no opinion or views and I will be leaving the forum a lot of the posts have been written in a way that can cause one to feel 'ganged up on' just like netmums. I have no problem with critism but the way it has been put across and the way it's been accused of things that wasn't said of ment.

Oh honey, I wasn't angry. I was just saying I don't think it is a good idea to have ofsted involved in the care of my own children in my own home, in either LJ's (which you mentioned) or how many pics and where I have up of my child. I'm sorry you took that as anger. I don't agree with your original post, but I'm not angry lol, everyone is allowed their opinion...even me.

Stick around, cos really pretty much everyone here is friendly and no one would ever deliberately try to offend you or be mean to you.

[Pipsqueak]

I have just had a phone call from a friend and I am a bit annoyed because we got into a heated discussion regarding cm and our own children. Basically she thinks I'm over the top because my son has a learning diary and a peg with his photo and name. Okay I agree at 9 months Ryan really doesn't care but I don't see why he should be singled out because he is 'the childminders son'. Infact I would go as far as saying its actually a form of discrimination. At 2 they will know the difference and will feel left out when the other children have their pegs and can look at their learning diaries. I also feel it will encourage him to hang is peg up.
I think they should all be treated the same and Ofsted should expect us to have learning diaries for our own under 5 children after all the only difference really is that mummy is the 'teacher' and were not paid for them.

I may be over thinking this but it made me so angry! Grrr

But Ofsted preach about inclusion, to my understanding inclusive means all, everything or everyone. Them not caring about cm's children is hardly inclusive practice is it??.

Yes I agree you ARE overthinking this and perhaps being a little OTT.
Having done this job for a good few years now and have raised my own three children through working I can honestly say that my children have had the SAME opportunities as the children I care for WHILST I am working - if they have choosen to be included and they STILL have the same opps. However, if Ofsted were to start demanding that I jump through hoops in order to prove that demonstrate inclusion with my OWN children in THEIR OWN home -well - what a step towards a nanny state that would be wouldn't it.

My children have been in childcare themselves, they also get that legislation whilst at school.
however my work is my work....and my family is family and they ARE treated differently whether anyone else likes it or not. The minded children i care for are cared for very deeply and very well - they are like additional members of extended family and hold special places in my heart but my children are first and foremost.

Would you as a school teacher be coming home and ensuring that your children are 'taught' evey night so that they are being treated equally to the children you care for in the daytime?

[fluff1975]

I think everyone has been very respectful of your views. Disagreeing isn't the same as saying 'you're wrong, I'm right'. It would he a shame if you left the forum because of a mere difference of opinion.

I can completely see where you're coming from and how you want your son included in you're setting, and like some who've already replied I disagree with including my children in that way. When new families visit, they know they are coming into my home and this is my family.

My youngest asked for a scrap book, so she has one. If my girls want their own picture peg like the mindees, I'll do them one, but I won't ask them if they want one.

My minded children are just that. My own children are just that.

[gegele]

i think you need to breathe.

your son is very young and I think you're over thinking things.

i can understand the idea of keeping a learning journal as memory keeper, i think it's a good idea. now that's justification enough to do it, nothing to do with Ofsted or inclusion....

when your child is going to grow up you are going to do little thing to show him that you love him MOre than the mindee :) because our children want to make sure they're special to us as well... where will be inclusion then?

Relax, enjoy. sounds like you're doing a great job. Wanting to do things is great, you don't have to try to justify yourself.

smile :thumbsup:

[NicoleW]

I keep a LJ for my daughter but she is under a peadiatrician because of development delay so it's very useful when we have appointments for them to be able to see what she's doing and when.

I wouldn't have done one though if she had no problems

[zippy]

I actually regret not doing a learnIng journal with my own son, I feel he missed out a bit as I was so into sorting out mindees interests, did his get forgotten, maybe, maybe not, and even if not it would have been a useful tool to show prospective parents, don't do coat pegs haven't got the space but if I did, my kids would have one too, they'd feel left out if I didn't and I'd never hear the end of it lol

[zippy]

I wouldn't link my own kids or do formal obs though, more like a memory bOok and I'd make sure I wasn't leaving them out when planning

[samb]

In terms of day to day running of my business, most things I woudl treat my children and others the same - for example they all have pegs (not labelled they just know which is theirs), they all have towels - although mindees have flannel sized and my children have normal sized that they use for bath time too etc. I think it is lovely to have learning journeys for your own child and many times I have thought about starting one for my son but just don't get round to it. :rolleyes: I would do it as a nice keepsake and to use to show prospective parents not for Ofsted. I understand what you are saying about showing Oftsed that you are inclusive in your practise by doing the same things with your child and your minded children - I don't think many childminders would exclude their own children from these things anyway would they? I don't see anything wrong with having your sons picture on his peg if thats what you do with the other children. If I put pictures up it would include my own too. I think if Ofsted marked a childminder down for not doing the same with their child then it would be unfair however i also think it is a nice touch. Certainly don't change what you are doing in your setting as it works for you.

[Ripeberry]

It's up to you what you do in your own home with your own children. My girls are 7 and 9yrs old now and to be honest, they like to be able to 'escape' upstairs as most of my mindees are under 4yrs old anyway.
If they want to craft with the little ones then they will come downstairs and do it and they love to help the younger ones. It's up to you if you do obs, but my own kids work has always been stuck on the wall together with the mindees work but most of theirs goes home anyway.
Don't have that much wall space! ;)

[Milli147]

Wow what a bizarre thread!
My setting is home from home - mindees chuck their coats on the hooks with my own children's. This to me is what inclusive is about, while they are here I treat them as a part of my family.
Having said that, everyone has the right to run their home, family and work as they like, and Tara - if you have time to do LJ's for your family then I congratulate you on your time management skills!! And good for you if that's what you want to do. But if someone disagrees I think you have to learn to take it on the chin and move on.....

[Mollymop]

It's up to you what you do Tara, in no way will it harm your child/ren to have their own pegs, LJ, diary, it just shows you are wanting to include him and I think that is a lovely thing to do.
My children are older now, but my youngest, 7, still has a scrap book the same as the older children to put all her works she does here with the other children. She has her photo on display with all the other mindees and is involved in most things we do especially in the school holidays.

I don't think that ofsted should get involved in what my children do, that to me is a no no, as others have said, but I do agree that involving your own children in the setting is very important. :)

[Tatjana]

Well I don't have any individual pegs or photos or special towels, everyone gets to use everything...how's that for inclusive??!:thumbsup: :laughing::laughing::laughing:

[barbarella68]

I agree with Tara, what the childminding kids have, my son has, that's the way I like to work and each to their own.I don't think she is over thinking things at all. Good job we all work differently as it would be a bit boring.:)

[sunview_cm]

I keep a LJ for my daughter. Everyone works differently though. I like to keep track of what she can do and should be doing and it helps me to see it in a visual format, thats just the way that works for me. I think that if I wasn't minding, I would be working and my daughter would be cared for in another EYFS setting and have a lj so it just makes sense to me to do the same for her as I do the other children. I'm probably not as neat with her lj, but I like to look back at it. My son went to nursery and has a lj, it brings a tear to my eye sometimes looking back at his.
Were all different though and we do what works for us and what we are comfortable with,thats whats great about cm we are our own bosses and can do it the way that suits us :)