BIG PROBLEM Child Ratios p.51 - Ofsted now say

[susi513]

P.51 B:Childminders 2nd bullet point.


"where four- and five-year-old children only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio"

Ofsted are now saying this is to be taken literally. Ie, 4 year olds will only count as an over five on the days they are with the childminder before and/or after a normal school day. Any day they don't attend a normal school day - school holidays, training days, snow days, staff strikes etc they will revert to an under five.

I've had an email from them today confirming this. I contacted them because I'd heard a representative from Ofsted said this at a recent NCMA conference.

Was it anyone one on this forum that got emails/letters last year saying that the EYFS would not be changing the way child ratios worked? Ofsted do say its STILL in the consulation stage and it appears there may be another revised version in July.

So please can everybody contact Ofsted and make your views known. Also if you are a member of NCMA please ask them too.

I've pointed out that childminders will not be able to hold open both an under fives place and an over fives place for one child's fees and parents will not be able to pay for two places either. So that leaves the option of having to obtain a variation (assuming we still can?) for each school holiday. Which won't help people with more than one mindee in reception class.

Thanks
sorry to be bearer of bad news, thought this issue was resolved long ago :(
Susi

[Blaze]

Your not the bearer I was...I posted earlier...but your post is more comprihensive!:)

[Pipsqueak]

HAve emailed Ofsted and NCMA:thumbsup:

[Banana]

is this a joke?

do ofsted know their **** from thier elbow?

x

[SimplyLucy]

Oh my goodness, I have two 4 year old starting reception class in September that won't be 5 until Feb.

One of those is my own son. I guess this means I'll be unable to fill his space as an under 5 until next February..........I'm going to lose a fortune because of this as i'll have to hold the other under 5 space open for the other 4 year old to use in the holidays. :angry:

[Pipsqueak]

This is the reply I have had from NCMA (blimey I only emailed them about 1/2hr ago)

Hi ****

We are waiting for clarification of this as well, we have had a lot of members contacting us. I am awaiting for a response and as soon as I have it I will contact you.

Kind regards

Sue McWilliams
Customer Service Administrator

[Blaze]

Wasn't it also the case that they are classed as under 5 until the September following their 5th birthday? So a child say who is 5 end of Sept 2008 would still be classed in holidays etc as under 5 untill 1st September 2009. Think the whole thing is mad!:angry:

[cloud9]

This is the reply I have had from NCMA (blimey I only emailed them about 1/2hr ago)

Hi ****

We are waiting for clarification of this as well, we have had a lot of members contacting us. I am awaiting for a response and as soon as I have it I will contact you.

Kind regards

Sue McWilliams
Customer Service Administrator

Nightmare! you'll have to let us know if they do contact you.

[sarah707]

So a child say who is 5 end of Sept 2008 would still be classed in holidays etc as under 5 untill 1st September 2009.

Yes that's my understanding of the wording...

It's all about eyfs not the age of the child....

While they are in nursery or reception class at school, no matter when they are 5, they are classed as being within the eyfs.

So whether they are 4 or 5 it doesn't matter and when their birthday is doesn't matter...

All that matters is that until the Sept after they finish eyfs they are not classed as 5!

How very silly! :(

[Pipsqueak]

Yes that's my understanding of the wording...

It's all about eyfs not the age of the child....

While they are in nursery or reception class at school, no matter when they are 5, they are classed as being within the eyfs.

So whether they are 4 or 5 it doesn't matter and when their birthday is doesn't matter...

All that matters is that until the Sept after they finish eyfs they are not classed as 5!

How very silly! :(

oh ****** hell. -
Should we all refuse to take on 4 and 5 year olds then???? What a farce

[susi513]

Sorry Blaze, I did look first but missed your thread.

God I'm thick, you're right. I hadn't realised it applies to the 5 year olds as well NIGHTMARE!!

Didn't they reassure everyone last year that this wouldn't be changing under the EYFS? Or was I dreaming?!!!!!


Its been suggested that its all just to create sufficient demand for extended schools :mad: :mad: TBH can't see any other logical reason/benefit to anyone.

Susi

[sarah707]

Didn't they reassure everyone last year that this wouldn't be changing under the EYFS? Or was I dreaming?!!!!! Susi

If you were dreaming then so was I :(

[flora]

What a pain in the proverbial

they could not run a p*** up in a brewery could they ??????? :angry:

[sarah707]

Just spotted this!

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/2300/534692

They're not impressed over there either! :D

[wendywu]

Right so a child who is 5 is not 5 and does not go into our 5 and 8 bracket :eek:

My DH always says that they are making it as difficult as possible for CM as they want to phase us out, and make every one use a nursery. I am beginning to think he is right.:angry:

[breezy]

Right so a child who is 5 is not 5 and does not go into our 5 and 8 bracket :eek:

My DH always says that they are making it as difficult as possible for CM as they want to phase us out, and make every one use a nursery. I am beginning to think he is right.:angry:

I'm afraid I'm beginning to feel like that too, either that or they just dont take us into account at all when they dream up these things:panic:

[Chimps Childminding]

So am i right in thinking that the little boy I look after who is starting school in September and will be 5 in December 2008, won't count as being 5 during the holidays until September 2009? sorry if i am just being really dense here but I have someone wanting his place as from September and as I assumed he would move up into the next bracket (5 - 8) then I didn't see a problem! :confused:

[sarah707]

Yes... that's how things stand at the moment...

I would write to Ofsted, explain your problem while there's still plenty of time...

I am sure you would get a holiday variation :D

[Chimps Childminding]

Thanks Sarah - thought that was the case but my head's a shed these days so just wanted to run it by you all! Can feel a letter coming on - but will leave it until the week-end when I can concentrate better (well maybe!) :laughing:

[miffy]

I wish Ofsted would apply some common sense and logic here - we can't switch a child from one age group to another and back again depending on whether they are in school or on holiday.

Off to bury my head in the sand - let me know when it's all sorted

miffy xx

[Lou]

Right i am a little tired and confused but let me get this straight...

Ofsted inspect me in the hols...i have a child who is 5 and 3 under 5s but as 5 yr old is in reception, they give me an unsatisfactory as i am ove numbers??????

am i getting this right???

[crazybones]

That is the impression I am getting too Lou. If I dont get a variation for the hols then I would seriously have to think about giving notice to my lo because I would be holding a place for him just purely for holidays and as Will already takes a place then I cant afford to do that.:(

[Pipsqueak]

Reckon we will need to hide the 4yr old who is occasionally 5 depending upon school holidays. Get that cupboard under the stairs prepared quick

[wendywu]

No i will alter the birth dates on all the contracts and record forms and make every single one of them 12. Then i dont have to bother with Ofsted at all.

Today Matthew i will be.......5 but not 5. :panic:

[SimplyLucy]

I'm in such a panic about this. I have 2 school starters for this September. One of which is my own son. I won't be able to afford to run if I have to keep his place as an under 5 open until September 2009, it's just madness.:panic:

My other school starter, a mindee, will also be classes as an under 5 until September 2009. I think his mum will blow her top if i ask her to pay a retainer fee thoughout all the term times just so I can hold his space open until the holidays.:eek:

Guess I'll have to look for term time only mindees, but that won't work as I already have 6 under 8's on the books until 9am...........can't see a teacher agreeing to drop a child off to me at 9.15am.

If OFSTED do go ahead with this then I'll seriously have to think about giving up, however if I do I still won't be able to get a job because there is no chance I'll get another childminder to take on my DS as I have a feeling we'll all have to start turning down reception class children.

Hardly slept last night thinking about this, whole idea of me becoming a childminder was so that when my DS started school I'd beable to take more children on and start to pay my bills with my income...........now the goal posts have been moved by a whole year.:mad:

[Pipsqueak]

No, what we do is give our parents Ofsted's email/phone numbers and get Parent Power to contact Ofsted for an explanation....:D

[susi513]

Its been pointed out to me that its not Ofsted who make the decision but the Department for Children, Schools & Families.

There is a feedback link here:

[[http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/teachingandlearning/EYFS]]

[susi513]

http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/teachingandlearning/EYFS/

Sorry

[Pipsqueak]

http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/teachingandlearning/EYFS/

Sorry

Thanks emailed!

[Pipsqueak]

This is the reply I have received from Ofsted this morning

Thank you for your e-mail.

Children aged four attending ten early education sessions a week may be classed as children over five years for the purposes of the adult to child ratio. This also applies in school holidays and is referred to as rising 5s. Relates to national standard 2.4.

For example, if a childminder can care for six children under eight, of which three can be under five, a four-year-old that meets the above criteria can take the place of one of the children aged five and over. Therefore they could still have 3 further children under 5.

The child may be classed as a five-year-old throughout the time they are with the childminder. They do not revert to being a four-year-old during school holidays, for example.

These conditions also apply to the childminders own child/children.

As far as Ofsted are aware this will not be changing under the EYFS.

However should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.

Regards,

Briege McGroggan

Customer Service Advisor



so do we reckon Ofsted don't actually know themselves? So accordingy to Ofsted at this moment in time - they aren't aware of any changes to "rising 5" under the EYFS.

We all know the first bit - good to get clarification of what we already know :rolleyes:

Are we any further forward now????

[Blaze]

I had this email from OFSTED too...but it's the same old story with OFSTED...depends on who you talk to...then who gets in trouble come inspection time!:rolleyes:

[sarah707]

Some parts of Ofsted do know it's changed... so do NCMA who are apparently working on putting something together... BCMA are also aware of the changes according to a friend of mine who has been talking to them and advising childminders to contact parents and ask them to join in the lobby to get them changed...

It's not just about the extra money parents will be claiming or paying out to keep children's spaces open through holidays etc... it's also about parental choice being damaged as we are not available to look after their children... plus continuity of care as childminders make difficult decisions about giving notice... and of course our incomes are giong to go down during a time when the country is in credit crunch :(

[miffy]

So to answer Pip's question "are we any further forward now?"

NO NO NO NO NO

Nice try though - thanks Pip

miffy xx

[SimplyLucy]

I'm going to ring OFSTED now and act all thick just to get them to explain it to me!

[SimplyLucy]

Ok, I just rang OFSTED, did my I'm all thick thing!

Told them I'm sorting out places for Spetember and needed to know if my son who starts full time school in September but isn't 5 until February will be classed as a 5 year old.

I was told that YES he will be classed as a 5 year old (rising 5 she called it), once he has begun full time school and will be in the 5-8 brackets for the purpose of adult:child ratios.

I then went on to ask her which bracket he comes under in the holidays which she said "he'll stay in the 5-8 year old bracket thoughout the holidays once he has started full time school"

She then went on to give me the address that I'll need to send a letter to to get my certificate changed, she told me to send the letter off around the middle of August!


I'm happy with what she has told me and will be going along these guidelines until anyone stands in my front lounge and tells me otherwise!

[Blaze]

Well good luck to you Mum of 4...unfortunately you were quoted the rules as they are now..not as they will be under EYFS...& it's our responsibility to make SURE that EYFS is implemented correctly...so even OFSTED have told you this...you could get in trouble at inspection time!:angry:

[SimplyLucy]

To be honest I'm totally confused about the whole thing.

Is this the paragraph you are all talking about?

■■ of these six children, a maximum of three may be young children4, however where four- and
five-year-old children only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school
day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio;



If it is I'm failing to understand where it mentions that the said child would revert back to a 4 year old for the purpose of holiday times. I appreciate that is does make mention of a normal school day, but are we looking into this too much and just guessing that they mean a 4 year old at school must go back to being an under 5 in the holidays?

I'm really sorry if I'm being dim, but I'm in such a panic about this as I really do think I'll have to give up because I've been waited for my son to start school to increase my numbers.

[Blaze]

This was part of an email sent to me from the SCCMA (Surrey County Child Minding Association) re the EYFS revisions...hope it makes things clearer:

It does address our concerns regarding risk assessments for outings and non prescribed medicines such as calpol.
I would point out that if any childminder is caring for a child aged 4 that is starting full time school in September they may need to apply for a variation to their numbers as 4 years olds will only be counted as if they were five when attending before and after school and not in the holidays or in-service days.

Looks like OFSTED are going to be busy! I wouldn't give up ...just be mindful & start petitioning!:)

[Blaze]

The problem is further compounded because it is also the case that they are classed as under 5 until the September following their 5th birthday! So a child say who is 5 end of Sept 2008 would still be classed in holidays etc as under 5 untill 1st September 2009.:rolleyes: :angry:

[sue32]

I have an e'mail from Ofsted and it state


Dear Sue,



Thank you for your e-mail.



The numbers of children that appear on your certificate are minded children. The maximum number of children that a childminder can be registered to look after is 6. As you have children of your own under the age of eight, they have been taken into account before your certificate was issued.



When your daughter/son starts full time school in September she will be classed as a rising five. However to be classed as rising fives children must attend 10 sessions of education a week; during the phase in period the children are not attending school full-time and therefore cannot be classed as rising fives during that time.



Should you wish to vary your certificate when your daughter/son starts school, please write to the Inspection Support Team. We require a signature on the variation letter and would request that you send an e-mail with a scanned attachment or send the letter in by ordinary mail to the following address:



Ofsted

National Business Unit

3rd Floor

Royal Exchange Buildings

St. Ann's Square

Manchester

M2 7LA



I hope this information is helpful to you.



However should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.



Regards




Owen Sidgwick
Customer Service Advisor

Ofsted - National Business Unit

Hope this helps
Sue

[Pipsqueak]

I really don't think we are going to get clarification on this anytime soon. NCMA have emailed me back and have basically said they are awaiting confirmation from Ofsted about this come Sept

[susi513]

I had the same email Sue. I emailed back and thanked them for explaining the current situation under the National Standards, but as the National Standards are being replaced by EYFS from September I would appreciate confirmation of the situation under EYFS.

And then I got the alarming answer that prompted me to start this thread.

So anyone who hasn't already done so, please contact DCSF and share your views and hopefully the powers that be will come to their senses.

[Tatia]

I asked my development worker (from NCMA) about this today and she said NCMA have said clearly that it will not change at all, things will stand as they are (4 yr olds in Reception will count as 5s even during hols) and as soon as they turn 5, not from end of Reception year, they will go into 5-8 bracket.

This is the answer I wanted to hear so I'm going with that!:laughing:

[allinatiz]

I got my Who Minds mag this morning and in it it says that "Ofsted has confirmed that the ratios are based on the normal school term, and that during holidays, children who would otherwise be at school will continue to be classed as aged over 5"

[ajs]

sorry i haven't had time to read all of the replies

BUT
according to my issue of who minds the ncma magazine there is nothing to worry about and rising 5s who are in full time school are counted as 5 year olds during the holidays (or so they say this week, who knows what they will say next week)

panic over

[katickles]

sorry i haven't had time to read all of the replies

BUT
according to my issue of who minds the ncma magazine there is nothing to worry about and rising 5s who are in full time school are counted as 5 year olds during the holidays (or so they say this week, who knows what they will say next week)

panic over

I was just going to write this as I two have just been reading the magazine. Hopefully everybody will relax again now - until they change there minds again that is :p

[Gherkin]

I am hoping that the Who Minds is right. My son starts school in september and he will only be 4 and 3 weeks so if they scrap the rising 5's I will be screwed - have only just been covering my bills since I started and really need the extra under 5's space to help cushion the income.

[susi513]

Can anybody scan me a copy of the NCMA article please? I''ll email it to Ofsted and see if they will confirm its true.

As there's nothing on either the NCMA or Teachernet to say there have been any changes I'm not relaxing just yet.

I want to see the paragraph in the EYFS amended so its absolutely clear.


Thanks

Sue
sue@sueschildminding.co.uk

[susi513]

http://www.bromleycma.org.uk/news/news


So if you haven't already made your views known, go to
http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/teachingandlearning/EYFS/feedback/index.cfm?form=105 just to make sure!

[elaineg]

Im going to keep the article from Who Minds in my file and if Ofsted inspect me and question my numbers Ill show them it. It says they have confirmed it so an inspector should be able to go back on it if I show them it in black and white.

love Elaine XXX

[cherry]

I agree, I've just had my copy of Who Minds and I've photo copied the article and will put it with the rest of my paperwork.

[Pipsqueak]

Hmmm, my email from a few days ago from the NCMA says that they are still awaiting clarification on this. NCMA picking up some of Ofsteds say one thing do another traits!!!

[Hannahlg]

panic over,

children who are in recption class full days can be classed as over 5s in term time and school hoildays. like it has allways been.

They cant really have one rule for the school hoildays and another for term time anyways

[susi513]

Sorry folks, this is not yet resolved. The NCMA article says nothing about the EYFS being amended again, it just reports what they say Ofsted told them. And it was distributed before I and others got their emails from Ofsted last week.

I emailed Ofsted to check if NCMA is right and they have replied 28 May 08 . Email includes: " Please be advised that the EYFS is still in Consultation with the DCFS, the EYFS states that the rising five only applies term time."

It is still in consultation as reporting on Bromley CMA website. Until the EYFS wording is amended we have to go by what it says now. So I'm writing off for a variation now. I fully expect the EYFS will be changed and I won't need it, but just in case ...


Susi

[Blaze]

Beat me to it Susi!:rolleyes: :D

[Hannahlg]

IF 4 YEAR CHILDREN ARE ATTENDING SCHOOL FULL TIME - THERE ARE CLASSED AS OVER 5S ALWAYS WILL BE

IT SAYS IT IN THE NCMA MAGAZINE

it dosnt make secne to class them as under 5s when there at school fulltime as parent are not going to pay for a full day place when there at school all day are there? Nope

[Blaze]

You need to read the full thread Hannah!

[Hannahlg]

i have thankyou

[Blaze]

Sorry folks, this is not yet resolved. The NCMA article says nothing about the EYFS being amended again, it just reports what they say Ofsted told them. And it was distributed before I and others got their emails from Ofsted last week.

I emailed Ofsted to check if NCMA is right and they have replied 28 May 08 . Email includes: " Please be advised that the EYFS is still in Consultation with the DCFS, the EYFS states that the rising five only applies term time."

It is still in consultation as reporting on Bromley CMA website. Until the EYFS wording is amended we have to go by what it says now. So I'm writing off for a variation now. I fully expect the EYFS will be changed and I won't need it, but just in case ...


Susi

Good...thought you'd missed the above & didn't want you to end up in trouble!:thumbsup:

[susi513]

Update!!! Had a reply from DCSF at last. But not got anywhere. First they said that children attending a normal school day CAN be counted as an over 5 in school holidays as well.

Delighted, says I ... but what about my 4 year old mindee who will NEVER come to my setting either before OR after a normal school day as she will only be coming in school holidays ? And as well as those parents who might only require regular childcare in school holidays - what of those who might ask for ad-hoc/emergency childcare in holidays, training days etc. No-one's going to get a variation in time for a snow day or to cover a colleague's sickness!

I said I was disappointed the EYFS hadn't grasped the opportunity to save Ofsted a whole lot of avoidable admin and change it so that all children count as an older child for the purposes of child ratios from day one of the reception class regardless of whether they attend full or part time. (don't expect them to do that, but it doesn't hurt to ask lol).

Apparently my comments are fully appreciated and have been passed to the Policy Team. :thumbsup: Fingers crossed that the Policy Team have some common sense!

[Blaze]

I will call & say the same thing...if enough of us do it...we may make some progress! Well done you!:clapping:

[Pipsqueak]

Update!!! Had a reply from DCSF at last. But not got anywhere. First they said that children attending a normal school day CAN be counted as an over 5 in school holidays as well.

Delighted, says I ... but what about my 4 year old mindee who will NEVER come to my setting either before OR after a normal school day as she will only be coming in school holidays ? And as well as those parents who might only require regular childcare in school holidays - what of those who might ask for ad-hoc/emergency childcare in holidays, training days etc. No-one's going to get a variation in time for a snow day or to cover a colleague's sickness!

I said I was disappointed the EYFS hadn't grasped the opportunity to save Ofsted a whole lot of avoidable admin and change it so that all children count as an older child for the purposes of child ratios from day one of the reception class regardless of whether they attend full or part time. (don't expect them to do that, but it doesn't hurt to ask lol).

Apparently my comments are fully appreciated and have been passed to the Policy Team. :thumbsup: Fingers crossed that the Policy Team have some common sense!

Well done Susi. This is just nonsensical. The Policy Team huh - bet we could do better!!! lol

[Pipsqueak]

IF 4 YEAR CHILDREN ARE ATTENDING SCHOOL FULL TIME - THERE ARE CLASSED AS OVER 5S ALWAYS WILL BE

IT SAYS IT IN THE NCMA MAGAZINE

it dosnt make secne to class them as under 5s when there at school fulltime as parent are not going to pay for a full day place when there at school all day are there? Nope

The thing is Hannah is that Ofsted are currently unsure themselves. The way the EYFS is worded the rising 5 will no longer exist technically. NCMA only told me a few days ago that they were unsure so I was gobsmacked at the article. A*se and elbows!!!!

[Hannahlg]

but there cant expect us to to use our under 5 place for children who ar all school all day can there. I you you really think about there cant do it.

It isnit going to change we wil lstill be able to class children in the other 5s when there at school fulltime.

[Pipsqueak]

until there is official confirmation then its still up in the air. There are many things the "officals" can't do (just purely for reasonable reasons) but they do!!!

I do hope the NCMA article is "official confirmation" but NCMA are the ones to decide this sadly. Common sense should prevail here so fingers crossed its does

[justgoodfriends]

The NCMA article was written BEFORE Monday's EYFS revisions were published. They were expecting the statement on page 51 to be reworded in these revisions.. but of of course it wasn't!!

The latest I've heard is that Ofsted have been instructed by the DCSF to send all childminders a letter in July informing them of the changes in ratios. Minders that have rung Ofsted in the last day or 2 have been told that rising 5's will only count as over 5's during term time.

:angry:

[sandy]

As suggested by susi513 I e-mailed through teachernet yesterday and have received a reply as follows

"I would like to explain that where four and five yr olds attend full time school and only attend the cm setting before and after the school day, they can be counted as over five for the purposes of the ratio requirements."

AND THE IMPORTANT BIT ;

" These children may also be counted as over the age of 5 during the school holidays"

This was from a David Pettit, Public Communications Unit, DCSF.

I've printed it out for my records but will still be watching and waiting !!!

Sandy

[Hannahlg]

so there saying we can class them as over 5s

i have emailed them saying the following
Hello I'm witting about the whole issues about when children start school full time in the reception class, that in the school we have to count them as under 5 children, but during term time we can class them as after school.
Some people are saying that we can class them as over 5s in school holidays and others are saying we can’t. And another question, Is it every child in the reception class who will have to be classed as under 5s in the school holidays or is it just the ones who are are still 4 years old and not turned 5 yet.

I don't see how the hell you can expect childminders to keep a place open all year round for a child who is at school fulltime because you won’t us to class them as under 5 children during the school holidays. Childminders will be losing out on money. you cant have one rule for term time and one for school holidays

For example 1 childminder is allowed 3 children under the age of 5 years. if we are looking after a child who attends school full time in the reception class we will be losing out on money as we cant charge parents when they child is at school full days. But there will be taking up a a full under 5s place as we wont be able to fill that place, as you are expecting us to class them as under 5s in the school holidays. So we will really only have two under 5 places for the whole of that year

So the whole year while a child is in the reception we will be losing on a lot of money.

I am witting this email on the behalf of Catherine ********, I am her daughter who works along side her as an assistant
Please email me back as soon as possible please

[SimplyLucy]

Ok, I just rang OFSTED, did my I'm all thick thing!

Told them I'm sorting out places for Spetember and needed to know if my son who starts full time school in September but isn't 5 until February will be classed as a 5 year old.

I was told that YES he will be classed as a 5 year old (rising 5 she called it), once he has begun full time school and will be in the 5-8 brackets for the purpose of adult:child ratios.

I then went on to ask her which bracket he comes under in the holidays which she said "he'll stay in the 5-8 year old bracket thoughout the holidays once he has started full time school"

She then went on to give me the address that I'll need to send a letter to to get my certificate changed, she told me to send the letter off around the middle of August!


I'm happy with what she has told me and will be going along these guidelines until anyone stands in my front lounge and tells me otherwise!



I've just rung OFSTED to follow up on my phone call of last week and now I'm being told my son can only be classed as a 5 year old during the term time and NOT in the holidays. Therefore I have lost his space.

I have the added problem of having a mindee starting school in September, I'll have to seriously consider charging his mum a retainer fee during term time to hold his space open for the holidays. I don't think she is going to like it, but tax credits pay for 80% of her childcare so I'm sure we can come to some arrangement.

I've just rung NCMA who will not confirm either way if their article is correct or not, they just told me it's being "looked into".

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

[Hannahlg]

well we have 3 children who will be starting school in september.

1 is going fulltime.
2 are just going in the morings untill janureay (there will be classed as under 5s till janureay anyways)

The 2 who will be starting fulltim in janreay wil have a place in the under 5 section in the hoilday.

but the one going fulltime wont, and the one going fulltime will be coming every afterschool. he has a place in the over 5s in the school hoildoys but not in the under 5s

[MissTinkerbell]

So it looks like a 4 year old is a 5 year old whilst they are at school but when they are on holiday they are 4 again?

How ridiculous is that? So far I don't have any mindees but I can see I'm going to have to be very careful who I take on. Guess I need to probably say no to my mum who has 2 year old twins and a 4 year starting school in September. I was going to write to Ofsted for a variation as I have 2 year old twins myself but this would give me 4 under-5s during term-time plus 2, 5-8 year olds and then 1 5-8 year old and 5 under-5s during holidays.

Nightmare :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

[Hannahlg]

hopefull there will say we can still class them as over 5s

half of mine dont even come in the hoildays but there a place in the hoildays and there pay half fee's for it if there dont come in the hoildays. If there dont come in the hoildays and i dont have a place for them i cant chrage them half fee's. But if have a place for them and there not using it i can charge them half fee's.

[Pipsqueak]

As suggested by susi513 I e-mailed through teachernet yesterday and have received a reply as follows

"I would like to explain that where four and five yr olds attend full time school and only attend the cm setting before and after the school day, they can be counted as over five for the purposes of the ratio requirements."

AND THE IMPORTANT BIT ;

" These children may also be counted as over the age of 5 during the school holidays"

This was from a David Pettit, Public Communications Unit, DCSF.

I've printed it out for my records but will still be watching and waiting !!!

Sandy

THis is still wide open to interpretation though isn't it....

children who attend the cm setting beforeandafter school, - so if they only attend one session with you before OR after school they will still be classed as 5. So I suppose those who may only have holidays fulltime schoolies age 4 will be classed in the 4yr old bracket.

Think someone somewhere wants to do some serious thinking about the implications and wording of...


Oh this is doing my head in.... I am only going to take children up to the start of their reception year and from the end of their reception year/turn 5!! There settled:D

[Pipsqueak]

hopefull there will say we can still class them as over 5s

half of mine dont even come in the hoildays but there a place in the hoildays and there pay half fee's for it if there dont come in the hoildays. If there dont come in the hoildays and i dont have a place for them i cant chrage them half fee's. But if have a place for them and there not using it i can charge them half fee's.

Yes but you can only charge if they have it in the contract that they may want the space/care therefore requiring you to leave that space open in the holidays ergo the space is there that you are charging retainer for but they are choosing not to use the (possbile) contracted time for.
If they categorically don't want care during the holidays and its not on the contract then you can't (or shouldn't) charge. Its a space you could fill otherwise

[Blaze]

THis is still wide open to interpretation though isn't it....

children who attend the cm setting beforeandafter school, - so if they only attend one session with you before OR after school they will still be classed as 5. So I suppose those who may only have holidays fulltime schoolies age 4 will be classed in the 4yr old bracket.

Think someone somewhere wants to do some serious thinking about the implications and wording of...


Oh this is doing my head in.... I am only going to take children up to the start of their reception year and from the end of their reception year/turn 5!! There settled:D


LOL...that's what i thought!!!!:laughing:

[justgoodfriends]

Would just like to add that it's not just until they turn 5 that they count as an under 5 during the holidays, but until the end of the EYFS ie. until they start Year 1!! :(

[justgoodfriends]

As suggested by susi513 I e-mailed through teachernet yesterday and have received a reply as follows

"I would like to explain that where four and five yr olds attend full time school and only attend the cm setting before and after the school day, they can be counted as over five for the purposes of the ratio requirements."

AND THE IMPORTANT BIT ;

" These children may also be counted as over the age of 5 during the school holidays"

This was from a David Pettit, Public Communications Unit, DCSF.

I've printed it out for my records but will still be watching and waiting !!!

Sandy

I think the operative word here is MAY also be counted. If you look in the Statutory Guidance pg 51 it does state that if a child attends before/after school care than you can apply for a variation to have them in the holidays too. How many variations you would be allowed who knows?!

[manjay]

So glad I live in Wales!!! What a bloomin nightmare:panic:

[emler]

Glad I live in Scotland (despite the yearly inspections :rolleyes: )

Emler x

[miffy]

I think the operative word here is MAY also be counted. If you look in the Statutory Guidance pg 51 it does state that if a child attends before/after school care than you can apply for a variation to have them in the holidays too. How many variations you would be allowed who knows?!

All I can say then is Ofsted will be inundated with variation requests.

Hope common sense will prevail before it comes to that

Thanks to all those who've been trying to get answers from the powers that be

miffy xx

[Hannahlg]

Well mother is ringing up on monday moring.

but she says that there cant give us 2months notice about this. There should at least give us 12months to sort ourselves out.

But me and my should be ok with it. as the children who have spce in the hoildays but never use it can just have term time contracts. and the children who do come in the hoildays can have the hoilday spaces.

you see 1 of the parets is a supply teacher
1 is a supply cook in a school
1 works in a speicl needs school
1 is a teaching assistant (but her child still comes in the hoildays jsut not every day as it would upset childs rountine not to come)

so will tell you what my mum finds out when she phones on monday

[SimplyLucy]

I'd love to stop taking children once they reach school starting age..........but mine is my own son! Not sure he'd appreciate me ditching him for a year! :laughing:

I'll need 2 variations, one so I can continue to look after my own son and one so I can take on the mindes that I have offered spaces to in Spetember when I supposedly had under 5 spaces!

[Hannahlg]

i got an email back from ofsted. saying that working on the situation and are limeted to he infromation there can give and to contact them at a later date

[justgoodfriends]

Well mother is ringing up on monday moring.

but she says that there cant give us 2months notice about this. There should at least give us 12months to sort ourselves out.




I suppose if they wanted to be petty they could argue we've had the packs for over a year ;)

[Hannahlg]

well yeah but its only come to light now . if it had come to light a year ago we would be sorted now.

[Lou]

I would just like to say thanks to all those who have sent email, made phone calls etc to try to find a solution to this.

I myself am just sitting tight and putting my trust in Ofsted (ha ha) etc that this will be resolved before september!!!!

And if not let them deal with all the extra work as each of us writes in and asks for variations.

I think we all need to chill out, i am not too concerned.

[justgoodfriends]

Possibly, but the NCMA had been told it would be changed in the revisions last week, that is what they have been telling people who have queried it with them before now. The DCSF appear to have been very sly with this :angry:

[Jinx]

I have to admit this whole situation has confused the :censored: out of me!

I have turned down 2 enquiries in the past 2 weeks because of all this.
I don't want to say yes to a parent now and find myself in the deep doggy doodoo in September! :eek:

From a conversation I had with 1 lady this week, parents of children due to start reception in September are finding it very hard to find childminders who will take them on. I wonder why?:rolleyes:

jinx x

[Rubybubbles]

yikes got a bigger headache reading this!

I thought it was all sorted:( when I phoned earlier in the year and wrote about my dd turning 4 end aug going into full time, there said my ratio will change to 3 under 5's

****** if it don't! I'll stick to babies

[Cammie Doodle]

I'm with Lou on this one .;) :thumbsup:

[MissTinkerbell]

I emailed Ofsted yesterday and this is their reply

Thank you for your e-mail.

Currently the situation with EYFS is as follows:

"Where four- and five-year-old children only attend the childminding setting before/or after a normal school day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult: child ratio"

Ofsted are aware that this may cause some concerns/problems and are currently investigating into the matter, I apologise for the lack of information but as of yet there is nothing I can inform you on.

Please contact Ofsted at a later date; I thank you for your patience.

Should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.

Regards,

Naomi Mappin
Customer Service Advisor
Ofsted - National Business Unit
TEL: 08456 404040

Well that explains it all doesn't it :angry:

I guess I'm going to have to be very careful as to who I agree to take on when I eventually goet some enquiries.

[karenjoy]

Well I have read all this thread and I am not sure what I should do.

I have 2 children under 5, Eldest was 4 in March she starts full time school in Sept.

I have agreed to take on a 4 year old boy who also starts with my eldest in Sept at the same school.

I was told at my pre reg on Wednesday that both my 4 year olds will be classed has 5 from Sept so then I have 2 spare places for under 5???

Only 1 of theses can be under one though??

Is that not correct now?

[Cammie Doodle]

Who knows Karen ???????????? We may all need to ask for vaiations to allow for continuity of care , but as I said before Im not going to worry over it all

[MissTinkerbell]

Trouble is its that word 'only'.

Hopefully Ofsted will put the pressure on when they realise just how much extra paperwork is going to be generated by the many childminders applying for variations for the school holidays.

[Chimps Childminding]

I wish they would make their minds up - I have one child starting school in september and someone waiting for a place which I was hoping to be able to offer - now I don't know anymore!!!!!!!!! and then next year I will have two of my mindees starting school - so will that mean that I will only be able to have one under 5 as the two as school will still count?????????? god i'm confused!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :confused:

[JazzyL]

this is how I feel - :( :mad: :panic: :angry: :blush:
I hope we hear soon, it leaves me feeling un-organised as I can't plan properly and have a possible mindee wanting to start in September . . .I'll let everyone know if I hear anything, it'l all turn out in the wash :)

[miffy]

Trouble is its that word 'only'.

Hopefully Ofsted will put the pressure on when they realise just how much extra paperwork is going to be generated by the many childminders applying for variations for the school holidays.

Let's hope so anyway

miffy xx

[justgoodfriends]

Official confirmation that the ratios issue is still undecided!!

http://www.*************:80//MainWebSite/Newslisting581a1f04.aspx?Map=B1784A3D5483266C1FA20 2FB5D447ECB&NewsItemID=72&NewsGroupID=1

[sarah707]

At least they are now admitting there's a problem :rolleyes:

Thank you for that link! :D

[miffy]

Thanks for the link

So it's now official - no-one knows the answer :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

miffy xx

[oakie dokie]

i have just seen the new revised issue, my understanding is it still reads the same:eek: iv just seen it today and i queried it with our tutor and she says its always been so, but i dont think she new what i was going on about. so i read it and it says the same. dunno? if they dont know, how can we. i feel confused, same as the course i was doing, im going to ring tilbuds neck next time i see her, she sighned me up for this full day course, she told me in the car on the way, oh bye the way you have to go for 3 full saturdays:eek: then to be told by tutor its 6:eek: so if tilybud does not appear again on the forum you know why:angry:

hazelx

[Tily Bud]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ........................ Im back !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God she's a hard woman :eek: :eek:

[Mollymop]

Tily bud? Who are you? Have you changed your name?

[Gherkin]

:idea: Early to have a brainwave I know but..... for those of you who like me have your own child going up to school in Sept - our children are not on our certificate!

Our certificates only apply to our mindees not our own children so surely if we get a variation to re-equate the age ratios on the certificate i.e: my current certificate reads 1 under 5 and 3 over (i have 2 of my own) I then apply for it to read 2 under 5 and 2 over I should be ok because nowhere on the certificate is my child actually considered to be in the mindees numbers
iyswim

[crazybones]

I dont think that will work because they still know about your child and their date of birth so they may not increase your numbers until your child turns 5 by their dob. I couldnt increase my 5-8 numbers until my son's actual birthday last year. Although when they did it they pressed a delete button somewhere along the way and lost the details of all my own children. :rolleyes: I had to give all their details again at my inspection. The inspector was very apologetic and said it was their fault. Dont think they would be so understanding of us making a mistake though.

[Tily Bud]

Tily bud? Who are you? Have you changed your name?


Yes I was formerly Cheryl1 :D ssshhhh dont tell any one though ;) :laughing:

[justgoodfriends]

[QUOTE=hazel2;164002]i have just seen the new revised issue, my understanding is it still reads the same:eek: iv just seen it today and i queried it with our tutor and she says its always been so,


She's right, it has always said that. What has happened is that the NCMA & everyone else who queried it, were reassured that the wording would be changed in the revisions released on May 19th - but it wasn't!!

[karenjoy]

Right well I know the answer now!!

I have had a enquiry about a 6 month old baby starting in sept.

I have 2 of my own under 5 and I have a 4 year old boy starting in Sept who will be going up to school with my eldest.

I rang ofsted earlier, spoke to a nice chap who is confirming everything in email to me.

H AND F will both be classed has 5 in TERM TIME ONLY!!!!!! H is not 5 until March 09 and F is not 5 until August 09.

If I want to have this baby I will have to put in a variation order to cover me during school holidays!!!

CANT SEE ANYONE ACCEPTING 4 year olds anymore!!!

[Rubybubbles]

Im sticking to under 3's!!

[karenjoy]

Will be glad when next Sept comes!!, My eldest and mindee will be classed has 5 all the time!!!

[Hannahlg]

well my mum has been on the phone this moring and this is what she has find out

yuo can only class a children in your over 5s when there turn 5

so if you are looking after children who are 4 years old and going to school fulltime you will be able to class them as over 5s when there come before and after school but if there come in the school hoildays there will be classed as under 5s. but as soon as the child turns 5 you can class them as over5s in the school hoildays

so really you can only class children over 5 in the school hoildays if there are 5 or over

[karenjoy]

right I understand.

But is my eldest not even in my ratios because she is my daughter?

[Pauline]

right I understand.

But is my eldest not even in my ratios because she is my daughter?

If she is under 8 then she is counted in your ratios Karen.

I've been told that the decision has not yet been finalised and that there is still consulation going on and that this rule might yet change back to the normal Rising 5 rule that we always had.

We will just have to wait and see.

[karenjoy]

Thanks Pauline, I understand now xxx

[CT64]

I agree with your husband, I have thought that for a while now.

[Alibali]

What a palaver, glad I'm in Scotland!

[manjay]

What a palaver, glad I'm in Scotland!

Gosh this is an old thread!!! but I am glad I am in Wales:D

[tinkerbelle]

did anyone ever get an answer on this one when do they go over 5's ??? id never heard of this till just

[TheBTeam]

I have had OFSTED confirm verbally that she a child is classed as 5 for ratio purposes when they attend full time school and once they attend full time school this applies even when they are in holiday time even if not physically reached 5, eg i have a 4 year old starting full time school in september but he is not actually 5 until March but for the October, christmas and feb holidays he still counts as an over 5.

However as he is not physically 5 until March he remains covered by EYFS until the 1st September after his 5 birthdays, so although an over 5 in my ofsted rations he will still be in EYFS till he is 5 1/2 years approx, although the bulk of the responsibility for reporting on this will fall to the school I have a duty to work with/liaise with them to ensure that all areas are covered and planned for for the child.

HTH

[jessie1]

Guys I spoke to my Inspector and hopefully I understood it correctly but am rather going to discuss this with Sarah via email and then she can post it here in simple English as I sometimes confuse myself.

[sonia ann]

I have had OFSTED confirm verbally that she a child is classed as 5 for ratio purposes when they attend full time school and once they attend full time school this applies even when they are in holiday time even if not physically reached 5, eg i have a 4 year old starting full time school in september but he is not actually 5 until March but for the October, christmas and feb holidays he still counts as an over 5.

However as he is not physically 5 until March he remains covered by EYFS until the 1st September after his 5 birthdays, so although an over 5 in my ofsted rations he will still be in EYFS till he is 5 1/2 years approx, although the bulk of the responsibility for reporting on this will fall to the school I have a duty to work with/liaise with them to ensure that all areas are covered and planned for for the child.

HTH

Yes this is correct....you have explained it well:)

[Mollymop]

This thread scared me!!!!!!!! Arrgghhh!!!!

it's old!!!!!!

And I thought all this had started up again!! PHEW!!!!

[tinkerbelle]

i had never heard anything about this and nearly keeled over from shock :laughing:
thanks for telling me its all fine and the reception kids are classed as over 5's :clapping:

[Heaven Scent]

I suppose if they wanted to be petty they could argue we've had the packs for over a year ;)

Yes they could - but - last year they sent e-mails to people on here confirming that it is as it always was and once children attend school then they were classed as rising 5's all the time but we had to do EYFS with them until the end of reception. - That is fine by me - cause there is not much you can do with a 4 year old in an hour or so after school buy the time you get home and have snack then the child may need to chill out and then its almost time to go home - for obs just record their preferences and if they said or did anything remarkable - its late in the day for them and its their time to do what they want - within reason ie free play.


The only advantage I have this year is that even if the one reception aged child I have does come in the hols then I still won't go over because I still am not full until Sept - and next year the child I may have starting in sept who will be going into reception will probably not attend in the hols - I have her8 year old sister and she doesn't come in the hols so I presume that the same will follow for the younger one although they do want me to have them more days now that the younger one is starting school.

I think they have a blasted cheek messing everyone around like his its not fair - we are jumping through every hoop they present us with and we all have purchased lots of extra stuff etc etc but they do not give us a penny in grants that they have given to nurseries and preschools so its just not one bit fair. Will after school clubs suffer and have to take on extra staff and do EYFS stuff with the kiddies when they are there in the hols - I bet not!!! - Wey Hey its just the poor old childminders again.:censored: :censored:

[sonia ann]

This thread scared me!!!!!!!! Arrgghhh!!!!

it's old!!!!!!

And I thought all this had started up again!! PHEW!!!!

yes i got a shock as well, until i realised:)

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Wasn't it also the case that they are classed as under 5 until the September following their 5th birthday? So a child say who is 5 end of Sept 2008 would still be classed in holidays etc as under 5 untill 1st September 2009. Think the whole thing is mad!:angry:

No they are classed as a rising 5 for ratio's and on the EY Register until the 31st August after their 5th birthday and you need to ask for a variation for your certificate to reflect this.

[The Juggler]

surely if this is still under consultation, then we can continue until they officially tell us otherwise!?

[Chatterbox Childcare]

surely if this is still under consultation, then we can continue until they officially tell us otherwise!?

I don't think this will happen - it was thrown out last time.

Continue as you are.