10 Working Tax Review

[Fairy Tanya]

Hello Everyone.

I started childminding about 10 weeks ago, so become self-employed in august.
I have just received a letter from the Working tax department.
They wanted to see all paperwork, from personal diaries with parents/ childs hours and signatures, invoices to parents, receipts for all business expenses and list of expenses themselves.

Has anyone else had this???

They wanted me to send all this in an A5 envelope. Which as you know would not not be easy, expecially with all our paperwork we have to do.
I mentioned that I wouldn't be able to fit it all into a small envelope, so would they be able to pay for the postage and packing and going recorded delivery.
The answer to this was no, I will have to email it to them.
OK, I can do that, luckily, I have a scanner and have scanned all receipts as told to save up from when we did our first childminding course, by the instructor. This I have had to do using a PDF file system. So far I have scanned over 80 pages and now have to send this via email.

So it has now come to having to prove that I am doing the hours which we work.
As you all know, our job doesn't just consist of looking after the children, but also doing all the paperwork (which we do not get paid for).
So far my childminding hours appx total to about 25-30 hours and paperwork, preparation and cleaning up after about 7 hours, if your quick.
I have to do a 10 week Working tax review, to make sure I am working the stated hours I am doing.
and now my physical hours at the moment are 14hours (which are under the 16-20hours - when you can claim working tax credits, but have added my paperwork hours on, so will come to about 22 hours a week. I have also informed tax credits about change of hours) but I have added an extra of a appx 6-8 hours for preperation, paperwork and clearing up.
This is so I can prove I have been working the required hours to claim working tax credits.
Has anyone else had this and what did you do???
I suppose the question is, although we are working with children and even tho, it may be under the 16-20 hour range. I have written in the diary the top up of paperwork hours etc. will they accept this???

When speaking to the jobcentre when signing off the job line, the lady said I can add all paperwork etc hours.

Many thanks if someone can clear this up.

Tanya

[rosebud]

I haven't had this so probably won't be much help but have always wondered how they would check the hours we work. I use my own attendance register and each week add up the number of hours work and put this down as a total so I have a record. I think I will add a column for paperwork hours too.

[babs]

When I first started I had to prove what hours I did so just sent in contract that I had filled out for college and invoice didn't give child's details or patents as confidential .

[Fairy Tanya]

Well I know that I won't be sending the contracts for children as that is between parent and childminder, and as far as I know, the only person who can look at those are the ncma and ofsted, and solicitors or something. so am hoping that that is all they are going to ask for.
But what do you think of this 10 week review. I think it is a good in one sense, as it will sort out the frauds of any jobs. but also I think it could be a nuisance, as like in my first part of the thread. how do we declare paperwork to these people.
I know being a new childminder, paperwork is very daunting and takes forever to do, until you get into a routine and organised the structure of your work.
but I don't want to be too enthusiatic about it to the tax people or working tax dept. I know my paperwork at the moment is taking a lot longer than the hours I've stated (7 hours). Sometimes I'm doing it over the weekend too, but I wont put that down, just in case they think I am taking the mickey.
What does everyone else average their paperwork hours as, and how do you submit it (I think that is the right word or what I'm saying).

When I have sent this off and had a reply. I will leave a thread on what happened, how it went, what they wanted sent, and when they send out the next review.

Thanks
Tanya

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Well I know that I won't be sending the contracts for children as that is between parent and childminder, and as far as I know, the only person who can look at those are the ncma and ofsted, and solicitors or something. so am hoping that that is all they are going to ask for.
But what do you think of this 10 week review. I think it is a good in one sense, as it will sort out the frauds of any jobs. but also I think it could be a nuisance, as like in my first part of the thread. how do we declare paperwork to these people.
I know being a new childminder, paperwork is very daunting and takes forever to do, until you get into a routine and organised the structure of your work.
but I don't want to be too enthusiatic about it to the tax people or working tax dept. I know my paperwork at the moment is taking a lot longer than the hours I've stated (7 hours). Sometimes I'm doing it over the weekend too, but I wont put that down, just in case they think I am taking the mickey.
What does everyone else average their paperwork hours as, and how do you submit it (I think that is the right word or what I'm saying).

When I have sent this off and had a reply. I will leave a thread on what happened, how it went, what they wanted sent, and when they send out the next review.

Thanks
Tanya

Safeguarding - the only people who will look at your contracts are you, the parents and any professionals (solicitors) that you employ

Time sheets and permission etc Ofsted have a right to see

NCMA - no rights at all to anything

[Fairy Tanya]

Well, I was nearly on target with that. BUT most definetly and absolutely not, will the working tax people see any contracts.

How about invoices, that I send to parents. Have been asked to send copies of them to working tax deparment. Which I suppose I will have to do. They have addresses, names of children, dates and times of child's attendance, along with weekly attendance forms. would I need parents permission for these to be sent copies???

Now I must say this does make me a bit angry, as we were never told any o this whilst we were on the childminding course. So have taken time out to do this, and now am behind on my actuall normal paperwork for diaries, eyfs stuff. and hope I will be able to catch up with all this. If we had been told about this, i'm sure that everyone could have done it with their weekly paperwork.
I will also send with the invoices, weekly diary (with parents signature), scanned copies of reciepts and a list of expenses, tho, I still haven't worked out council tax, elec & water, I'll still have to get that bit done too.
Oh what a headache!!!

Tanya

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Well, I was nearly on target with that. BUT most definetly and absolutely not, will the working tax people see any contracts.

How about invoices, that I send to parents. Have been asked to send copies of them to working tax deparment. Which I suppose I will have to do. They have addresses, names of children, dates and times of child's attendance, along with weekly attendance forms. would I need parents permission for these to be sent copies???

Now I must say this does make me a bit angry, as we were never told any o this whilst we were on the childminding course. So have taken time out to do this, and now am behind on my actuall normal paperwork for diaries, eyfs stuff. and hope I will be able to catch up with all this. If we had been told about this, i'm sure that everyone could have done it with their weekly paperwork.
I will also send with the invoices, weekly diary (with parents signature), scanned copies of reciepts and a list of expenses, tho, I still haven't worked out council tax, elec & water, I'll still have to get that bit done too.
Oh what a headache!!!

Tanya

I would get back on the phone and discuss this with TC. I would send them a profit and loss and tell them that due to data protection you are unwilling to provide any paperwork unless they justify why.

Has anyone else experienced this?

[Goatgirl]

Hi :),
I agree with Debbie - they should be justifying what they want to see.
I would probably just make a form up myself for each parent stating minding hours/week agreed rate etc without the child's actual name.

I would list the approximate time needed before and after each session for preparation/ setting up/ cleaning/ risk assessment checks etc as relevant.

Also, for paperwork i'd list time taken for current/ ongoing paperwork e.g. planning, preparing crafts, printouts EYFS observations, diaires/ scrapbooks etc by child, per day/week and separately list general paperwork such as policies which you are working on. I think it is fine to list the extra time you are spending on this at the start of your business; I would think it was to be expected at this stage. Later, you will need less time, as you will hopefully just be updating things already in place, rather than starting from scratch.

Personally I always included shopping time if i had gone out specifically to buy items for childminding; food and resources. I was never asked to prove my hours of work though. Just based them on what I wouldn't have been spending time doing if i wasn't working.

If they're going to start doing this I think they really ought to be providing a suitable declaration form for childminders to fill in and sign.

Good luck :)

best wishes,
Wendy :)

[MrAnchovy]

The information here (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/powers_rights.htm) is about HMRC visits rather than this new idea of remote inspection by email, but the principal is the same:

Q8. What can I do if I think the visiting officer is asking for information they are not entitled to request?

A. If you are unclear why you are being asked for a particular piece of information you should ask the visiting officer to explain their reasons for requesting it. If you are not satisfied with the explanation you should say so, and you can refuse to provide the information if you consider it is not relevant to the area the officer is looking at. If you and the officer cannot agree about the relevance of the information, and the officer still considers they need it, they will be able to use formal powers to obtain it if they can show it is relevant to the area they are dealing with. If you want a further explanation you should contact the officer’s manager. The officer will provide their manager’s contact details if you ask them to.

IMHO it is highly likely that they would get a court order to make you hand over the contracts if they wanted to. Again IMHO it is not worth getting them worked up about it - what information is in your contracts that HMRC do not know already, apart from the fact that you are looking after some specific children for certain hours which is all they are interested in?

[Fairy Tanya]

Basically, They wanted me to provide evidence that I am working, for me to be able to claim "working tax credit", and to ensure that I am not just doing this job as a "pretend I'm working, so to be able to claim benefits to which I would not be entitled to" kind of thing. I think if someone did appear at my door, which they haven't yet. I would send them away, and get them to ring me up to make an appointment for when I didn't have children in my care that day,(if I had children in my care that day, I wouldn't let them in). I would leave you a pdf file and the letter that came with it on here for you to look at Mr A, but I don't know how to attach it using this site.
the form is an "IWC5", form the Working tax department.
So far, I have scanned my diary with the hours and parents signatures on the days that I had the children, Invoices that I have sent them for the fees due and reciepts from companies that I have bought equipment for my setting, eg. glue, paint, toys, dvd's etc. They have not asked for anything else as yet. so hopefully this will do.
It would have ben nice tho, when you sign off from the job centre, that they tell you that the WTC people will send you a letter so far into your employment to say they they would like you provide evidence in the near future of your employment status, then at least, we could have been prepared.
Anyway I'm hoping that this is all they need and will hope that they send me a reply back stating when the next one will be due, so then I can be more prepared for the future.

Tanya
P.S - how do you attach an image?? I keep getting a little window asking for me to add the URL for the image, with the words https at the beginning, as if it wants me to use a website page for the image. Can someone also leave instructions on how to attach pictures on the threads please or even attachments. Thanks. Tanya

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Basically, They wanted me to provide evidence that I am working, for me to be able to claim "working tax credit", and to ensure that I am not just doing this job as a "pretend I'm working, so to be able to claim benefits to which I would not be entitled to" kind of thing. I think if someone did appear at my door, which they haven't yet. I would send them away, and get them to ring me up to make an appointment for when I didn't have children in my care that day,(if I had children in my care that day, I wouldn't let them in). I would leave you a pdf file and the letter that came with it on here for you to look at Mr A, but I don't know how to attach it using this site.
the form is an "IWC5", form the Working tax department.
So far, I have scanned my diary with the hours and parents signatures on the days that I had the children, Invoices that I have sent them for the fees due and reciepts from companies that I have bought equipment for my setting, eg. glue, paint, toys, dvd's etc. They have not asked for anything else as yet. so hopefully this will do.
It would have ben nice tho, when you sign off from the job centre, that they tell you that the WTC people will send you a letter so far into your employment to say they they would like you provide evidence in the near future of your employment status, then at least, we could have been prepared.
Anyway I'm hoping that this is all they need and will hope that they send me a reply back stating when the next one will be due, so then I can be more prepared for the future.

Tanya
P.S - how do you attach an image?? I keep getting a little window asking for me to add the URL for the image, with the words https at the beginning, as if it wants me to use a website page for the image. Can someone also leave instructions on how to attach pictures on the threads please or even attachments. Thanks. Tanya

When you click on the paperclip you will come up with a box that allows you to browse, click on this and then you can find the file you want and then upload it. it the photo is too large then you need to go to a website to nake the image smaller, photobucket is a good one I have found.

[Fairy Tanya]

Yes had used paperclip before, but never saw the browse option. only a list below with attachment list. Most website use browse, maybe it was because I hadn't been on the forum for long and didn't have those privlages. Now i know I can do it I will load up a copy of the letter.
Thank you for all your help.
Tanya


<copy of letter removed now by Pauline as it was such a big attachment and no longer needed, it helps save space>

[MrAnchovy]

This is In Work Credit which is administered by DWP (the Department for Work and Pensions) and is nothing to do with Working Tax Credit which is administered by HMRC.

It seems as though DWP have made up their own rules for this which may or may not be as workable as the well established HMRC procedures (DWP don't normally have anything to do with self-employed people).

Note that they are only asking for contracts from people who are subcontracting, which you aren't.

[Trpta108]

When I started I only had 14 hours but also heard that I could add hours spent on paperwork, cleaning etc., so I signed off and contacted WTC, who said only the hours I am getting paid for counts, so had to start JSA again until I got another mindee and was over the 16 hours. So if I was you I would check this with them before you do all this scanning.

[Fairy Tanya]

When I signed off with job centre, the lady there, said that I had to include any preparation, cleaning paperwork etc. I told her that I would only be doing 12 hours to start with, she asked if that included all extra's? I said no, so she said to add on hours of paperwork etc, and that would be ok.
Tanya

[lolli_pop243]

In work credit is an extra payment (£40 per week outside London, and £60 in London) and that you would get from DWP as a result of claiming a qualifying benefit for a certain amount of time. If you are starting work for more than 16 hours a week, and that work will last longer than 5 weeks, then you may be paid for up to 52 weeks.

They will do periodic reviews to see if that work is ongoing. Here's the link to the information you may find useful:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/Employedorlookingforwork/DG_10013908

Also, it's not accurate to say DWP don't have anything to do with self employed people either. The letter gives you the options if you are self employed, and in work credit applies to them as well. See this link for more info:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Jobseekers/programmesandservices/DG_173631

Hope this helps you,

Lorraine

[Fairy Tanya]

Thank you Lorraine,
The links were very helpful. At least now I understand a little bit more about these government run things.
Well on the good side, I should have a new client next week to bring my hours back up again. So once again going to have to ring the tax credit people to update the working records. I'm surprised they don't get bored with us keep ringing up and chopping and changing the hours we work.
Ah, well, at least it's a job, and it's a job I enjoy more than other jobs I have had, apart from the blinking paperwork. if only there was an easier way.
Thank you all for helping me on this, hopefully the tax people will also come up with an easier way to deal with childminding/self employed people.

Tanya
Big Fairy Hugs

[lolli_pop243]

Am glad they were useful, the only thing to be aware of, is that tax credits are different from in work credit. Tax credits are paid by HMRC and in work credit is by DWP. They are two separate entities that deal with 2 different sets of payments. I used to work for DWP in a previous life, so I know how difficult understanding these things can be. :)

[Fairy Tanya]

You will be pleased to know, that the "In work credit" went well. so all that is needed, especially if you have just started out, and have been on the jobline for over 6 months, you can claim this in some parts of the country.

The list is is;

your diary signed by the parents, with the hours the child had been there, everyday, the number of miscellanious hours for paperwork, prep, & cleaning, all added up at the end of the week.
the last 10 weeks of reciepts and invoices you sent and recieved, and a list of the expenses (I did this on excel, which I also included all my start up expenses too)
your UTR number, national insurance number.
I scanned these onto my computer doing PDF then sent them via email, as there was far too much to put into a small envelope.

So this will have to be done again in 12 weeks time.

Tanya

[Chatterbox Childcare]

You will be pleased to know, that the "In work credit" went well. so all that is needed, especially if you have just started out, and have been on the jobline for over 6 months, you can claim this in some parts of the country.

The list is is;

your diary signed by the parents, with the hours the child had been there, everyday, the number of miscellanious hours for paperwork, prep, & cleaning, all added up at the end of the week.
the last 10 weeks of reciepts and invoices you sent and recieved, and a list of the expenses (I did this on excel, which I also included all my start up expenses too)
your UTR number, national insurance number.
I scanned these onto my computer doing PDF then sent them via email, as there was far too much to put into a small envelope.

So this will have to be done again in 12 weeks time.

Tanya

Well one you - lets hope in 12 weeks you don't need to claim again :)

[Fairy Tanya]

I think it is a case of doing this every so often to be able to claim it, but as it only lasts a year anyway, I have only another 42 weeks of proving it.
but at least I know what it is they want now. so hopefully this had made it easier for anyone else that has this dropped on their doorstep by surprise.


Tanya

[lolli_pop243]

Am glad it went well, the reason behibd them doing the review is to make sure you are getting your full entitlement. At least in 12 weeks time you know what to expect.:)

[Fairy Tanya]

I think this will be an ongoing thing until the year of this extra bonus is up, which will be next august. Shame it would be nice if we could get this bonus for 2 years, but hey ho, it's better than a wet fish in your face.
so am happy to do it. which means every week, I'll be standing at my printer scanning everything in, ready for the next evidence due.
Can't have everything on a plate, so, there you have it.
So too all newbies, who have been on the job line for over 6 months and are entitled to this bonus. start SCANNING
1. Have a weekly display diary, get parents to sign each day the children come.
2. Scan all your reciepts to do with minding, scan your invoices to parents. and
3. Write up a list to match up your buying reciepts on excel(which is best) - make things as clear as poss.


Hope this helps to all newbies
Tanya

[Sue_M222]

Tanya, so grateful for you putting this information on, will make sure I scan once a week in readiness. I am starting minding tomorrow but only have 15 hours, I will be using the NCMA attendance records for recording the hours I'll be working and getting parents to sign that, so should I be recording my other business hours in another diary do you think?

Regards
Sue