Help ... Ofsted and my ratios!!

[nannynicky]

Hi, I am not sure if i have put this on the right page but any help would be fab!

I have completed my Diploma in Home Childcare, Passed the Exam, Had a great Pre Reg Visit and thought it was all going so well!

Then I hit a problem....

My situation is this. I am an NNEB nanny who has 2 children aged 4y and 10m. I have been nannying for several families on an ad hoc arrangement as the parents have random work schedules (a nurse, an airhostess, a mum that travels lots and needs some wrap around care and a mum who needs the odd school pick up). I decided to register as a childminder to make things a little easier for myself and my kids rather than me heading out to loads of different houses and never knowing what food, toys etc are going to be there when i arrive. Its a tad crazy and no 2 weeks are ever the same but I love it and really enjoy the freedom it allows me to take time out for my family when i need to.

At my pre reg visit the lady from ofsted went through the families I currently nanny for. She pointed out that at any one time I can only have 3 children in the early years age group. We worked out that this was always ok as my 4y attends full day care several days and spends a day with grandma and my 10m also attends full day 2 days and spends half a day at grandmas.

So when we looked at a mock up of one of my weeks I never had more than 3 children under 5y. She was happy with this.

However my certificate arrived this morning and said I could care for only one child under 5y. I phoned Ofsted to try and sort this and was told that even if my children were in full days at day care they still counted in my ratios. As I was their mother.

How can this be? I am at work and my children are at nursery so I can work!
Does this mean that a nuresery teacher or school teacher who has kids has to have spaces empty in the class as their kids count in the ratios??

Please help I am so so confussed!! I want to work, I love the kids I care for. I decided to be a childminder over a nanny so i could plan and prepare my days more and now i feel that i have just wasted a ton of time and money!!

Sorry for the rant but would love any help or info!!

[Mookins]

they count because if the schools or grandmum couldnt have them cos of closure or illness they would come to you...hence then going over your numbers

hth
xx

[claire'scherubs]

Yes sorry your children count even if they are not there. Had this query with my 3year old who goes to nursery 5 mornings a week and they said that it didn't count as she might be sick etc etc. I am afraid I have to totally agree with what Ofsted are saying

[sarah707]

The certificate is right until your child is in full 10 sessions a week school (not settling in).

Once he is in school full time you will be able to apply for 2 under 5s on your certificate.

Sorry you have been misled.

[Pauline]

Hi and welcome. :)

I'm afraid that is how the system works for childminders, a teacher wouldn't have to keep spaces available as they are working as teachers, not childminders - if you see what I mean.

A childminders children are taken into account, whether at home or not.

If the lady from Ofsted went through this with you then I would contact Ofsted and speak to them about it because to me it seems she is giving incorrect information.

Sorry, I know this is not what you want to read :(

[nannynicky]

Thanks Everyone!! It just drives me nuts!!

I am working, this is my job. If my kids are ill my husband collects them and deals with them either by bringing them home and staying with them or going to granmas.

I just feel so fustrated. I send my kids to daycare on some days so they get group social interaction and learn that its ok for other people to care for them.

It now means that I am paying out for childcare but still unable to childmind on those days so may aswell have just continued nannying and not made myself jump through all these hoops.

[Pipsqueak]

Its awful that you appear to have been misled and as advised i would speak to and consider putting in a complaint.
However, that is the ratios allowed for all of us.
For instance, my own 5yr old counts within my numbers - even though he is at school all day, I have had to wait for a whole academic year for him to move completely out of my early years group.

Perhaps, if your husband is available you could register him as your assistant and perhaps increase your numbers that way - but then he would have to be present for you to be able to do this.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Ofsted and their mis-information!

[nannynicky]

Hmmm....

I will be taking this further as I am not happy!

In no other job or position can your children be taken into account with respect to your job! it is classed as discrimination for being a women and having kids.

Sorry if I am ranting and for my poor spelling (glass of wine to blame)!

It just feels that everywhere we turn people and rules are trying to stop me from continuing to work. I thought this country was ment to be trying to help parents to work!!

I am begining to see how difficult ofsted can be!! If i had been told this at my Childminding Intro session I would have walked away and not spent every saturday all summer in the classroom.

argh!!

[Pipsqueak]

Thing is, its not really discrimination - not on gender (due to the male minders that there are and their children taken into consideration).

The ratios are there to ensure that children are kept safe and provided for adequately to the best of our abilities, capabilities and amount of space available. Other settings have to abide by it as well, including EY units in schools.

Then you have your insurance to consider - you are restricted on numbers there as well but that takes a look at the whole rather than age groups.

I understand how you feel, i get really cross at a local soft play - they will only allow 1 adult to take in 4 children max - no matter if they are your own or minded. I have queried this, saying I could potentially have xx amount in the holidays and how on earth is my friend supposed to come - she has 10 children in total but their insurance stipulates 1adult to 4 children.
Rules is rules - sometimes they suck!

[jane5]

Thanks for the info, I have never heard this explained clearly before. I thought that my dd would not be counted if she was at nursery.

[kirste]

Oh no, I'm really not happy reading this :-( I am in the last stages of pre reg and just waiting for my partners CRB and my home visit.

I was told on my pre reg course that if my own children were in a nursery or day care then they would not be counted in my numbers. I have a 1 year old, a 4 year old and a 7 year old.

I was also told that if my partner was present and was solely looking after our children they then also would not be counted in my numbers!

We have talked about him becoming my assistant, it now looks like we'll have to do it just to make enough money to live on as I'll only be allowed one full timer.

I'm definitley going to be chasing this with my council who ran the course!

[nannynicky]

Hi, What really fustrates me is the lack of clarity. I also asked the question at my inital info session prior to the course, durring the course and at my pre reg home visit!! Every time I was told my children would not count if in full day care, being cared for by their granma or father.

When I found out this was not true and took it up with my NCMA CDO she was amazed.

I am so cross. This is my job and i am having my earnings limited just because i have children. I didn't become a childminder so i could be at home with my own kids, I became a childminder to have more control over the activities I could offer and have better planning for the childrens days.

Argh!!

I will keep you all posted as to what happens with ofsted!!

[Newbie1!]

Hello all - I just wanted some advice re this post - I am at pre-reg stage and I appreciate I can ask Ofsted etc when they come but I just wanted to hear it first hand from "normal" people!!!

I have had several enquiries and am developing a bit of a waiting list - my daughter is 20 months old so can someone actually tell me, as well as my daughter how many under 5s I can have at any one time please? Many thanks all xxx

[charlie potato]

you could have another 2 children (only one under the age of one) but it also depends on the size of your house. xx:)

[Pauline]

Hello all - I just wanted some advice re this post - I am at pre-reg stage and I appreciate I can ask Ofsted etc when they come but I just wanted to hear it first hand from "normal" people!!!

I have had several enquiries and am developing a bit of a waiting list - my daughter is 20 months old so can someone actually tell me, as well as my daughter how many under 5s I can have at any one time please? Many thanks all xxx

Charlie is right it does also depend on the space available, the ratios are on the main website: http://childmindinghelp.co.uk/becomingachildminder.html

Also, can I just check - you say you came here to get info first hand from "normal" people? ......... You came to the wrong place :laughing::laughing:

[Newbie1!]

Charlie is right it does also depend on the space available, the ratios are on the main website: http://childmindinghelp.co.uk/becomingachildminder.html

Also, can I just check - you say you came here to get info first hand from "normal" people? ......... You came to the wrong place :laughing::laughing:

Ha Ha - Thanks Pauline - I was starting to wonder........ :laughing: :laughing:

[nannynicky]

Hi Everyone, Sorry I haven't been on this site for ages as have been trying to get to the bottom of this issue. It seams so illogical to everyone I speak to.

I have taken the matter further and have contacted several relevant members of parliament.

If you would like to supprort me please join my facebook group

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=168183623197693

Thanks

[WibbleWobble]

I have just seen your piece in the Childcare Magazine. It comes under "readers wives...oops i mean readers views"

hope you get a positive outcome,,,,,you certainly put forward a good point.:thumbsup:

mandy xxxxx

[Mookins]

as bad as it is that you have been told wrongly in regards to numbers:angry:
i do believe that its right for our own children to be counted.

il probably get shot down for this but its what i believe.
for example, if i had 4 children of my own in various age groups PLUS the 6 under 8s you would be as busy as a nursery school and they have to have more than 1 member of staff on...can you spread yourself that much?....some childminders ive read on here are already swamped with their own official quota and worry all the time how its effecting their own children

i completely understand where you are coming from with regards to financially but there has to be a line somewhere

just my views

xx

[SamBaker]

I'm confused as well now lol! My certificate says I'm allowed 4 under the age of 8. Do I have to add my children to that, meaning I can only take on two more or have they already been taken in to account? So confused and worried now!

[Mookins]

I'm confused as well now lol! My certificate says I'm allowed 4 under the age of 8. Do I have to add my children to that, meaning I can only take on two more or have they already been taken in to account? So confused and worried now!

how many children do you have of your own hun?
xx

[SamBaker]

2, one who is 2 and one who is 7

[Mookins]

2, one who is 2 and one who is 7

in that case they have already taken into account your own kiddies and the 4 mentioned on your certificate is howmany your allowed
xx

[SamBaker]

Thank you so much Jennie!! You have just made my day, Have just booked my first 3 children this week, one who will be full time and was really worried then I had done it wrong.
Thank you so much again, I do love this site :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

[Mookins]

Thank you so much Jennie!! You have just made my day, Have just booked my first 3 children this week, one who will be full time and was really worried then I had done it wrong.
Thank you so much again, I do love this site :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

well done you:clapping:
thats very good news
xx

[Mookins]

Thank you so much Jennie!! You have just made my day, Have just booked my first 3 children this week, one who will be full time and was really worried then I had done it wrong.
Thank you so much again, I do love this site :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

just remember though hun that as you have a 2yr old you can only have 2 more in the early years and only 1 of those can be under 12months 9at any one time)

xxx

[nannynicky]

was it in the October issue?? I have yet to see it!! :jump for joy:

I just wish this was all made so much clearer so that everyone understood it and their was less confussion!! I am not asking to be able to look after loads of kids all at once.

I just want to be able to have my full ratio allowance if my kids are home they should count if they are in paid day care or with granma they shouldn't.

I cant be the only one in this situation! I hope I can raise enough awareness that this will get resolved!!

After all we all just want to work and give our families a good start!

[mama2three]

I have a good friend who was given the same advice by her inspector , and she thinks that Im mistaken - which I can understand , you would think that the advice form an onspector would hold more weight than a less experienced cm! Im just worried it comes back and bites her on the bum .

[hannahemilie]

was it in the October issue?? I have yet to see it!! :jump for joy:

I just wish this was all made so much clearer so that everyone understood it and their was less confussion!! I am not asking to be able to look after loads of kids all at once.

I just want to be able to have my full ratio allowance if my kids are home they should count if they are in paid day care or with granma they shouldn't.

I cant be the only one in this situation! I hope I can raise enough awareness that this will get resolved!!

After all we all just want to work and give our families a good start!

But what would you do if one of your children was ill and you had to collect them? you could go over your numbers then youd be breaking the law?

[nannynicky]

On the days my Children are in day care or with Granma - I am working therefor my husband or a close family friend is their emergency contact on those days. If they are ill and cannot go to day care, my husband would take them to Granmas for the day. If they are so ill they need me I would like with any job have to cancel my days work.

My Husband and I work hard to share the care of our children on the days they attend day care he is the emergency contact who has to drop everything should he be needed so that I can work, on the other days he works and I deal with the kids!!

So why should I have to have them count in my ratios!!

What drives me nuts is that Ofsted registered Nannies can have as many children as they like, have to do little paperwork though still have an EY number.

I kind of wish I had never started this process as so far its been one large headache. However now I am determined to make the one size fits all rule that Ofsted has be changed!! Everyone has different circumstances and these should be taken into account!

[FussyElmo]

But there is one rule that regulates all cm's that we allowed a certain number of children which includes our own children.

I do understand where you are coming from as I have 2 children 3 and under so have only got the 1 early years space. I also for a time had 2 children taking my over 5's space too.

I cant see how it is going to change honestly.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

On the days my Children are in day care or with Granma - I am working therefor my husband or a close family friend is their emergency contact on those days. If they are ill and cannot go to day care, my husband would take them to Granmas for the day. If they are so ill they need me I would like with any job have to cancel my days work.

My Husband and I work hard to share the care of our children on the days they attend day care he is the emergency contact who has to drop everything should he be needed so that I can work, on the other days he works and I deal with the kids!!

So why should I have to have them count in my ratios!!

What drives me nuts is that Ofsted registered Nannies can have as many children as they like, have to do little paperwork though still have an EY number.

I kind of wish I had never started this process as so far its been one large headache. However now I am determined to make the one size fits all rule that Ofsted has be changed!! Everyone has different circumstances and these should be taken into account!

I think you are hitting your head against a brick wall here as the ratio's are law as far as I can tell.

Good luck though

Would it not be easier to cancel your childminding and be a nanny?

[The Juggler]

Oh no, I'm really not happy reading this :-( I am in the last stages of pre reg and just waiting for my partners CRB and my home visit.

I was told on my pre reg course that if my own children were in a nursery or day care then they would not be counted in my numbers. I have a 1 year old, a 4 year old and a 7 year old.

I was also told that if my partner was present and was solely looking after our children they then also would not be counted in my numbers!

We have talked about him becoming my assistant, it now looks like we'll have to do it just to make enough money to live on as I'll only be allowed one full timer.

I'm definitley going to be chasing this with my council who ran the course!

but you can take on on after schoolies - you can have 6 under 8's and you can have over 8's too. You may get a variation if you get an enquiry for siblings:)

[nannynicky]

Wow...

I finally feel that I may be getting somewhere. I have my local MP taking the issue up with Ofsted and Nursery World are running a letter from me in the November 4th issue.

Lets hope Ofsted realise how daft it is for your children to count in ratios if you have paid for them to attend day care so you can work!!

Fingers crossed!

[Pauline]

Wow...

I finally feel that I may be getting somewhere. I have my local MP taking the issue up with Ofsted and Nursery World are running a letter from me in the November 4th issue.

Lets hope Ofsted realise how daft it is for your children to count in ratios if you have paid for them to attend day care so you can work!!

Fingers crossed!

Well the two policewomen got the law changed on caring for children without reward, so you never know you could well succeed!

[green puppy]

I guess part of the problem would be monitering it though wouldn't it? How is ofsted going to know that a cm's child/ren are always out of the house during working hours? Bit of a grey area I think. Isn't there a fact sheet explaining ratios etc... on the website to view before registering? The teacher argument doesn't really make sense, a teacher is employed working out of home, their children are not going to count in ratios as they may not be attending that school and if they did they would have been allocated a space within the ratio's. Good luck though.

[kirste]

Hi Everyone, Sorry I haven't been on this site for ages as have been trying to get to the bottom of this issue. It seams so illogical to everyone I speak to.

I have taken the matter further and have contacted several relevant members of parliament.

If you would like to supprort me please join my facebook group

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=168183623197693

Thanks

Hi Nicky,

I completely agree with you and have joined your group and will get everyone I know to join.

I have already left my well paid job to do childminding and now I know that my income will be seriously limited as I have a 1 yr old (who attends nursery 2 days a week) and a 4 yr old (who is at half day nursery every day) so now I can only have 1 full time child, lucky if I get £140 a week.

What is the most annoying is that I, like you were told completely incorrect information at my pre registration course :angry: .

Good luck with your campaign and if you need any support please ask x

[Pipsqueak]

I guess part of the problem would be monitering it though wouldn't it? How is ofsted going to know that a cm's child/ren are always out of the house during working hours? Bit of a grey area I think. Isn't there a fact sheet explaining ratios etc... on the website to view before registering? The teacher argument doesn't really make sense, a teacher is employed working out of home, their children are not going to count in ratios as they may not be attending that school and if they did they would have been allocated a space within the ratio's. Good luck though.

Couldn't agree more.

the ratios are there for a purpose and how it would be policed would be anybodies guess. There are already minders out there who deliberately and knowingly go over ratios.

Ratios are a lot to do with insurance as well.


I have argued black is blue with a local soft play - they only allow 1 adult to take in 4 children. its a fab soft play but as a minder I could potentially have 12 children with me during the holidays (not often, not somethign I go out of my way to have but its a possible). My argument is moot - the insurance tells them otherwise. Same as the law/ratios and our insurance dictate what we can and can't do.

[Ripeberry]

I'm confused as well now lol! My certificate says I'm allowed 4 under the age of 8. Do I have to add my children to that, meaning I can only take on two more or have they already been taken in to account? So confused and worried now!

Your own children are already taken into account so you can have 4 other children. :)

[nannynicky]

I think the point is that if you are an honest and professional childminder you will always work within your set ratios and insurance. Safety is always the most important thing where any children are concerned. I am fighting this so that I can work legally and hopefully have a fair ratio when my children are in daycare. Like any childminder I could be subject to spot checks at anyime and my paperwork would show which children are in my care when.

I am hoping that like the situation with the police officers offering reciprcal childcare ofsted will see sence and help childminders in my situation have the chance to have fair ratios, earn a good wage and provide quality childcare!!

[nannynicky]

Morning All.... Well on this dull and wet Tuesday morning I feel I can see maybe a little ray of sunshine!! I have just phoned Ofsted regarding the Variation form I sent to allow me to increase my early years numbers to 4 children. Meaning that even with my children having to be counted I would still be able to have two minded children!

When I requested this Variation form I was told it was straight forward and should take a month to action.

I sent it well over a month ago, so I called to see what was happening. I was told my covering letter (asking why my children counted when in day care) and variation form had been passed higher up the chain of command. This is due to the fact that I had written to several members of parliment, who have now become involved!

The lady I spoke to was supportive of my logic and when I pointed out that the 2 police ladies had the reciprical childcare rule changed she said, you have a small chance of changing the rules for everyone!!

It may be just a small glimmer of hope but I am grabbing it with both hands, Lets hope fingers crossed we can change these rules!!

Please ask everyone you know to support by joinging this group. Remeber power in numbers!!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=168183623197693