EYFS planning for babies

[bubbly]

It's my understanding that when EYFS is mandatory, we're all going to have to show proof of planning. I know most of you here, if not everyone, already plan activities for older children but how do you plan activities for babies? Other than playing with the baby toys and going to playgroup, I'm struggling on this one. You can't exactly do arts & crafts, footy in the park or cooking etc can you lol?

I've never done planning for the baby mindee. I've always considered him too young.

Lynne xxx

[Pauline]

You are probably already doing it with your baby toys, it just a matter of showing how you see this working, e.g. you could plan to provide activities that will help improve the senses, get out toys with sounds, colours, movement and observe how baby plays with them.

Also, taste activities allowing an older baby to touch and taste different fruits.

Introduce treasure baskets for example different items of the same colour, talk about colour - this is a yellow brick, the yellow truck is going beep beep. etc.

You will be surprised how much you are already doing things if you think about it.

You don't need expensive planning sheets either, a simple day to day idea of what you plan to do will suffice and your plans may change, that is the beauty of childminding. Don't forget to date and keep them though

:)

[charleyfarley]

That's the thing we are all probably doing the the things for for EYFS already just need to make sure it's down on paper so Ofsted can see this

Carol xx

[angeldelight]

Why not adapt the Birth to Three activities that are in the forum - they are what you will be doing anyway not a lot is going to be changing in that respect

Also like Pauline said you are already doing most of them anyway you just do not realise it

If you are still stuck give us a shout

Angel xx

[sarah707]

All the good stuff that is in birth to 3 is still in the eyfs... even the wording is spookily familiar... so it's just a matter of changing some of the headings! :D

[oakie dokie]

i did some yesterday but found it quite hard to put it into words, about which
areas it linked to, im just a bit thick like that, i know im doing it, its writing it in words!

hazelx

[Pauline]

i did some yesterday but found it quite hard to put it into words, about which
areas it linked to, im just a bit thick like that, i know im doing it, its writing it in words!

hazelx

You don't need to put it into too many words if you don't want. Why not try this idea:

Take a photo - for instance, feeding the ducks, put it in the centre of a piece of paper and draw 6 lines going out to six boxes, in each box write a little about each of the six early learning goals for the activity.

KUW - Children learn about different types of duck or birds
PSR&N - The children break the bread into quarters, halves etc.
PD - Physical development is improved by breaking the bread into small pieces - fine finger control.
CD - We made a collage using feathers when we returned home
CLL - We discussed the ducks what colours they were and how big they were
PSE - The chidlren enjoyed the trip and being together for a social outing

Perhaps this doesn't quite fit with as a very young baby activity but you get my idea I hope. It can be used with all activities and age groups and is a simple way to show how you have thought about how activities fit to the goals.

:)

[son77]

Thanks for that Pauline.

The problem I always find is that I take loads of pics but then don't get them developed for a month or so.

Perhaps I should get a polaroid camera?!

[Cammie Doodle]

You can get a digital camera quite cheaply now, and print out photos on your computer. I just do mine on ordinary paper .:)

[peggy]

You don't need to put it into too many words if you don't want. Why not try this idea:

Take a photo - for instance, feeding the ducks, put it in the centre of a piece of paper and draw 6 lines going out to six boxes, in each box write a little about each of the six early learning goals for the activity.

KUW - Children learn about different types of duck or birds
PSR&N - The children break the bread into quarters, halves etc.
PD - Physical development is improved by breaking the bread into small pieces - fine finger control.
CD - We made a collage using feathers when we returned home
CLL - We discussed the ducks what colours they were and how big they were
PSE - The chidlren enjoyed the trip and being together for a social outing

Perhaps this doesn't quite fit with as a very young baby activity but you get my idea I hope. It can be used with all activities and age groups and is a simple way to show how you have thought about how activities fit to the goals.

:)

i only registered in August 2007 - please dont tell me we have to write this all down in every thing we plan to do? Please please tell me we dont have to actually write it down????!!!!! When on earth are we gonna get time to do all this??? I am so hoping that collective evidence and an understanding, is gonna be enough when it comes to inspection????

[sarah707]

Well... you have to show you are observing and then planning for each child's individual needs, so if Johnny (age 1y8m) has visited the ducks you could say, on his observation sheet -

Visited the ducks (KUW) and J was very excited (PSED) and threw bread into the water (PD - gross motor skills) after, for the first time ever, pulling it into small pieces (PD- fine motor skills)... ok that's your observation done - he did something new today so it's worth observing - he pulled the bread to pieces...

When you get back, you want to follow up on his obvious interest in pulling things to pieces, so you plan...

Since J enjoyed pulling bread into small pieces (PD - fine motor skills) I plan to give him some old toy catalogues to shred (PD) for making a collage (CD). I will support him with using the glue (PD) and we will look at the shapes and sizes of the pieces he shreds (PSR&N). We will talk about the toys (CLL) and discuss his favourites (PSED).

Later you would look at this and see whether it's in the right area for his learning and development goals... for his age and developmental level. This will give you more ideas what to do next as well..

Hope this makes it sound easy! :D

[peggy]

Well... you have to show you are observing and then planning for each child's individual needs, so if Johnny (age 1y8m) has visited the ducks you could say, on his observation sheet -

Visited the ducks (KUW) and J was very excited (PSED) and threw bread into the water (PD - gross motor skills) after, for the first time ever, pulling it into small pieces (PD- fine motor skills)... ok that's your observation done - he did something new today so it's worth observing - he pulled the bread to pieces...

When you get back, you want to follow up on his obvious interest in pulling things to pieces, so you plan...

Since J enjoyed pulling bread into small pieces (PD - fine motor skills) I plan to give him some old toy catalogues to shred (PD) for making a collage (CD). I will support him with using the glue (PD) and we will look at the shapes and sizes of the pieces he shreds (PSR&N). We will talk about the toys (CLL) and discuss his favourites (PSED).

Later you would look at this and see whether it's in the right area for his learning and development goals... for his age and developmental level. This will give you more ideas what to do next as well..

Hope this makes it sound easy! :D

I am horrified!! I dont want to do it, i have to many demands on my time as it is - it sounds as though we're self teaching an nvq here. Suddenly a career in the childcare profession is so not appealing. TBH - What a load of old bullocks! (not at you but the whole eyfs !!!)

I cant see me getting an an outstanding to be honest on my first inspection and if this is what it takes i dont bloomin care, Personally i want to concentrate on what I think is more important, the actual act of caring of my own children and those that come into my care and doing what comes naturally!!!! I cant be doing with all this writing down i know my own family life will suffer, I need to be supporting my own children in their development such as spending my free time assisting them with their homework and reading them stories not planning and writing indepth observations for other children ! Where on earth is the support for the lonesome childminder having to do all this???


eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkk!

[bubbly]

^ well said Peggy. I totally agree. I'm so angry I feel like I'm about to give birth to an elephant :angry:

[angeldelight]

Hahaha and how does that feel ????

xx

[bubbly]

Hahaha and how does that feel ????

xx
I'll tell you in a sec - it's twins and the 2nd one isn't quite out yet :laughing:

[peggy]

^ well said Peggy. I totally agree. I'm so angry I feel like I'm about to give birth to an elephant :angry:

that was very polietly said.....pooing bricks would of been my interpretation!!!!! hee hee ! Tbh, i'm angry too, my friends mum is a registered childminder and she's being doing it for twenty odd years - but is also dyslexic - her husband passed away a few years back and her daughter (my friend, is an only child) and is working abroad. How on earth is she gonna cope with all this on her own? ~ I'm probably on the wrong thread here for my outbursts, so I apologise profusely ~ But come on if we were in a nursery working we would have support and guidence, I'm finding it tough already being my own boss if it wernt for you guys on here for advice i dont know what i would do, but there must be childminders out there that do feel totally alone and dont know where to turn to for support only to have been penalised for it at their inspection.

[Mags]

I have been recommended to do one "quality" observation per child each week.
Well i have spent the biggest part of this evening putting together that observation and linking it to the different areas of learning and development. (plus future planning....and that is just 1 child.....i have three to do for).

Maybe i have done it all wrong, i'm not sure...maybe that's why it seems to have taken ages to do.

Can,t say i'm looking forward to doing the next one....i can think of much better things that i would rather do in my spare time.
Blimey it's making me feel grumpy already.:(

[peggy]

I have been recommended to do one "quality" observation per child each week.
Well i have spent the biggest part of this evening putting together that observation and linking it to the different areas of learning and development. (plus future planning....and that is just 1 child.....i have three to do for).

Maybe i have done it all wrong, i'm not sure...maybe that's why it seems to have taken ages to do.

Can,t say i'm looking forward to doing the next one....i can think of much better things that i would rather do in my spare time.
Blimey it's making me feel grumpy already.:(

my point exactly.....it would seem that people are unsure what they are expected to do, i just think its wrong that as childminders we are inspected in the same way as nurseries, day care etc.. We dont have the support or funding that such settings do and are left up to doing what we think is right and hope for the best. Well the way i see it is i'm gonna do my best within my capabilities and see what happens!

[buildingblocks]

Suddenly a career in the childcare profession is so not appealing.

i agree I am terrified at the thought of the paperwork as I struggle already - I know it in my head but can't seemt o get it down on paper. you just have to keep focused on the good things.

i have had a prospective parent round this morning. Came at 9 left at 12 - why so long - baby fell asleep on me and that is why I love this job and what keeps me sane

[deeb66]

i agree I am terrified at the thought of the paperwork as I struggle already - I know it in my head but can't seemt o get it down on paper. you just have to keep focused on the good things.

i have had a prospective parent round this morning. Came at 9 left at 12 - why so long - baby fell asleep on me and that is why I love this job and what keeps me sane

3 hours does sound like a long time.......but then the parent obviously felt comfortable with you.....so did the baby if he/she fell asleep on you :thumbsup:

Hopefully you will get the job

[sarah707]

Fingers crossed Kate! Did this one seem ok? :D

[gemmcd]

Hi - I want to agree - the work I have been doing recently as a childminder has been taking up all my free time. I feel my own kids are missing out, my once supportive hubby is now not so supportive as I am always doing 'paperwork' and I myself was getting so stressed and taking it out on everyone.

So I have had a rethink about everything and what I do. Worked out what is important to the kids/ parents/ and my own family and take it from there.

This is what I have come up with:

I plan each month based on a particular theme ( I have used alot of Sarah's stuff from the books I bought from her!)

I then each weekend plan the week ahead - I do this very basically - just work out the main activity/ outing per day and what I will need. This can get altered throughout the week, but it just keep me focused.

I write very detailed daily diaries for each child and 99% time put a photo in or art work. In these diaries I realised are most of my observations so I ahve ditched the observation sheets as felt I was just repeating myself. This is now risking having no link to EYFS, so I may rethink this but I don't see the point really - I know I am covering everything.

The parents of the children I have are very happy with my childcare, they have even commented on the fact that as lovely as my daily diaries are, they are not necessary!

I am only planning to childmind for 2 years until my son goes to school. I am not expecting the children I mind to leave in those 2 years nor am I expecting any more children to join. I know things can change but it seems unlikely.

I was getting so stressed and overworked about doing everything for OFSTED's sake it was getting ridiculous. I have now cut this down by half and feel a lot happier - so I may not get a great inspection grade but I am happy, the kids are happy, the parents are happy and my family are happy and in actual fact - in the way I am as a childcare provider nothing has actually changed for the worse - if anything it is much better as I am not trying so stressed!
Gemma

[sarah707]

That is a really good attitude to have Gem... I hope you can start to enjoy your work rather than let it take over your life...

Have you thought about doing a less detailed diary for parents (which will disappear when they leave) and instead making a celebration folder that is easy to photocopy and keep as evidence? One for each child, covering which ever age and stage that child is at, with photos, copies of pics they have done etc...

Then this could go home when they leave as a reminder of the happy times and you would also have a copy if you needed it for the future... just a thought, espeically as parents are saying the daily diaries are too much for what they want but you obviously have a skill for writing them... :D

[michellethegooner]

my point exactly.....it would seem that people are unsure what they are expected to do, i just think its wrong that as childminders we are inspected in the same way as nurseries, day care etc.. We dont have the support or funding that such settings do and are left up to doing what we think is right and hope for the best. Well the way i see it is i'm gonna do my best within my capabilities and see what happens!

Our inspections are more thorough than nurseries,schools etc as I don't remember signing all the permission forms etc that I give to parents still don't my son is in primary school and not once have I been given let alone signed a plaster or photo permission form the only form I get every term are updating my emergency contacts and outing forms thats it and yes the newsletters..

On my last inspection my inspecter looked at my attendence records and one of my mindees was down as arriving at 8am every day and I was asked if that was the exact time she arrived every morning and I said yes and that the attendence records asked for approximate time not actual time that seemed to shut her up but can you imagine a school or nursery standing at door with stop clocks and register in hand ticking kids in lol...

we seem to have heaps more paperwork than other child care settings yet we don't have the extra staff and support that the other settings do have or the funding they receive to get all these nice new resources... childminders defo need a different type of inspection or better still let one of these inspecters trade places with us just for 1 day and see how they cope..

thats me rant over for now lol :littleangel:

Michelle

[Tily Bud]

You don't need to put it into too many words if you don't want. Why not try this idea:

Take a photo - for instance, feeding the ducks, put it in the centre of a piece of paper and draw 6 lines going out to six boxes, in each box write a little about each of the six early learning goals for the activity.

KUW - Children learn about different types of duck or birds
PSR&N - The children break the bread into quarters, halves etc.
PD - Physical development is improved by breaking the bread into small pieces - fine finger control.
CD - We made a collage using feathers when we returned home
CLL - We discussed the ducks what colours they were and how big they were
PSE - The chidlren enjoyed the trip and being together for a social outing

Perhaps this doesn't quite fit with as a very young baby activity but you get my idea I hope. It can be used with all activities and age groups and is a simple way to show how you have thought about how activities fit to the goals.

:)

That is great Pauline i had never thought of doing it like that , thanks xx

[Tiisku]

I am glad I am not the only one annoyed with all the stuff that needs doing !
I have really only been minding for a month now and am only just fetting around what I actually need to do "evidence" vice..For the baby I look after part-time I write a diary sheet every day to give to mum, maybe I will do as suggested and start doing a more detailed one and photocopy it to keep in my records for Ofsted. Although he is only with me 4 hours three days a week so the little time he's here would be a bit mad to be wasted on me sitting and writing a novel every day. I haven't done any planning on paper either- as people say here the free time is dedicated to my own kids and watching TV with hubbie before going to bed at the end of each day !:laughing:

I did start a portfolio yesterday, glueing mixed pictures of all kids here-inc.my own- to paper sheets and wrote very briefly what area of development that particular activity referred to. I hope Ofsted is going to be happy with that as even just a brief general one took ages to make.. I will have to tackle the plannings next, a book of policies( no, still haven't made one of those..most stuff is included in the contracts) and I haven't got a specific permission for anything else than car travel and outings so far, which are also inc. in the contratcs. I am still lacking posters too.:D

Looking at the efforts in this forum every minder should get an outstanding just for the effort !!

[ma7ie]

http://www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/eyfs/resources/downloads/3_1_ep.pdf

Page 12 of this document (which is on the cd rom) has a note to childminders. From what I am understanding, we are not expected to do reams and reams of paperwork and a small observation from day to day activities as well as planning is sufficient. I'm really not getting my knickers in a twist about it.

I do one small observation a day and link it to the EYFS. As for planning, I have a theme a month and try to make sure that I cover all 6 areas of learning and development. I definately don't do loads of paperwork.

Not sure if this is right, but my network co-ordinator seems to think so. :D

[namtasha]

i really like the photo idea.
do you think i could keep all planning on computer? not print it out, got enough files already thenm when ofsted come i can give them my lap top to look at!!
it will all be in a nice order etc
backed up on cd just in case

[Heaven Scent]

:angry: :angry: Here Here having worked in the childcare sector for years and years including childminding 10 years ago I know its sooooooo unfair what is being asked of childminders especially newly registered ones (me included) who are only given 6mths to get everything in place which has been building up since 2004 when B-3 came into force - I presume thats when childminders had to get involved. All new childminders have to get their heads around the lingo involved in B-3 which wasn't necessary for me to do as Cache or Ed excel require students to cross reference their work to B-3 or the foundation stage they want them to use stages of development as described by the 'Early Educators and child psychologists so because I stopped working directly with children in 02 and mainly dealt with training staff in Montessori Principles and then taught in a college so am in a quandry about how it all fits together. I am also horrified that childminders are graded by the type of paperwork they produce as much as by the type of loving care they give the children and by how they make them feel secure and part of the family. I appreciate that some paperwork is necessary and even way back in 1997 I produced my own policies to try to protect myself and my family especially with regard to giving my minded children lifts outside my minding hours. NCMA contracts were very basic in those days and I had to add stuff to cover myself for a variety of situations. So no problem with some of it - My problem is as follows:-

With childminders there is only one of us to plan for a variety of different age groups unlike a nursery where there are often up large numbers of staff who work together to write up plans and to observe and to discuss how to do things for the best.

In nurseries the staff take turns at having time out to plan (-very few don't) There is also the officer in charge and sometimes the owner who is super numery and they cover while the staff are planning - where is my supernumery member of staff to cover me.

We have to plan for every age group we have and and that often involves just one child in each age group where is the time for all that I know the themes will be the same but you are having to plan across a variety of stages of development

There are often a great many old plans that circulate tahrough the nursery and are rotated according to the season.

In primary schools teachers also get time out to plan (cant remember what they call it now) plus their planning is all prescriptive now with every class in every school covering the same topic at the same time so loads and loads of support there.

There is loads and loads more training opportunities for nursery and teaching staff to go on and there is always someone to cover them while they are away and they don't lose money while they attend them

I also would have been horrified if when my childminder handed me a daily diary instead of telling me about what my daughter had been up to every day she went or if either of my childrens nursery teachers or the staff at the playgroups had handed me sheets of paper instead of talking to me at the end their session I'm telling you they wouldn't have gone back.

Parents don't have time to read reams of paper and I know most of my friends - the ones with the pristine houses - show homes throw every bit of paper into the bin as soon as their child gives it to them including work done and pictures painted even cards they make for them. So I know so many of them won't read them and in addition I think it will stick much better if I tell them and it usually prompts a bit of dialogue and lets children see that parents are working together and they have their best interests at heart.

I also object on the grounds that we don't get the nursery education grant for doing a much more difficult job with regard to their precious paperwork. If we are expected to do the work we should have the same rights.

I made sure that I spoke even briefly to every single parent/carer who collected children from my care every day even if it was just to mention that the child was very good. That is how I am and that is how I believe things should be done


These are my feelings and I know we are all different and ofsted should allow for that as well as the difference in the children. We're not a load of robots.

Right thats my spout for today I'll get off my soap box now and put it back in the garage.

I say again lets just lobby parliament!!!!!!!!!!

Celine:angry:

[Noodles]

we were having a conversation the other morning about all of this at childminding group and i asked the question " What if parents refused us permission to observe their children and plan their development" After all we are not teachers and havnt had 3 years training.
Most parents sent their children to a childminder because they want a homely environment just as if they were home with mum.
I dont think mum would be doing all of this at home if she didnt work.

The answer to my question was that this is an area that has to be discussed with OFSTED as they are not sure what will happen if parents refuse to give permission.

[namtasha]

do you have to plan for your own kids?
i have a son of 17 months and a mindee of 7 months i am gpoing to be planning for one so am i disadvantaging my own son??

[sarah707]

do you have to plan for your own kids?
i have a son of 17 months and a mindee of 7 months i am gpoing to be planning for one so am i disadvantaging my own son??

I was talking about this to a friend the other day ... what about my poor children? Did they suffer because I didn't do EYFS with them? What about children at home with their parents etc...

Well, the short answer is no, you don't have to do eyfs with your own child - you are playing with him, he is getting access to lots of activities you are planning, you are talking to him etc and you know whether he is progressing because you take an interest in him and his learning and development.

EYFS is good practice and a good indicator of how each child is getting on... so your child is lucky because he has an educated and informed parent who can give him the very best to prepare him for his future... think of it that way... :D

[michelle0]

Hi everyone dont know about you but im struggling with this eyfs an i am due an inspection soon because an inspector rang me up and said she also told me the national standards dont apply anymore its just the eyfrs.
Can you tell me at the moment i just have a 6 year old mindie do i still have to do the eyfs? an do i just have to do the eyfs or is there other paper work i have to do?

Thanks

[Paula J]

I have to do obs on 9 children two are under one, two are around 15 month, three are between 18month and two, the last two are both 3plus I have done group themed planning (from Sarahs books) upto Christmas. I have then done individial planing based around the six areas of learning for each child which is based aroud the group planning. So how many obs do I need to do each week I was going to make general notes daily for each child in their diarys and support this with a photo and detailed ob once a week per child Is this not right?? I am really in a muddle now HELP am I doing it right :panic: Paula

[michelle0]

Hi pauline first off all blimey 9 children bet thats hard work , thought childminders was only allowed the max 6 children an only 1 child under 1 year old an u have two.
As for the eyfs i could'nt tell you honestly i have'nt a clue thats why im on here asking for help sounds you have more of an idea than me though.
I only have 1 6 year old at the moment and im after the little ones like you have it seems to be quiet in my area , whatbarea are you in?

[sarah707]

Can you tell me at the moment i just have a 6 year old mindie do i still have to do the eyfs? an do i just have to do the eyfs or is there other paper work i have to do?

Thanks

The whole eyfs... the statutory requirements and the principles... are relevant for every child from 0 - 15 (might be 16 not sure)

The learning and development requirements are relevant for children up to leaving Reception class at school.

So you need the whole of the eyfs in place, but you would only be observing, assessing and planning to the learning and development requirements for that age group.

For older children, good practice says you plan their time with you to include rest, chilling, activities, multicultural stuff, seasons, following interests from school etc.

Hope this helps :D

[Paula J]

Hi I am in Rotherham South Yorkshire we to seem quiet on phone calls from new parents I work with two assistants so I am allowed 5 under fives and two under ones at any session. Ouside one little boy they are all part time filling all my gaps nicely. I enjoy the kids, love my job but hate paper work looks like I will be at this all weekend :panic: Paula

[sarah707]

I have to do obs on 9 children two are under one, two are around 15 month, three are between 18month and two, the last two are both 3plus I have done group themed planning (from Sarahs books) upto Christmas. I have then done individial planing based around the six areas of learning for each child which is based aroud the group planning. So how many obs do I need to do each week I was going to make general notes daily for each child in their diarys and support this with a photo and detailed ob once a week per child Is this not right?? I am really in a muddle now HELP am I doing it right :panic: Paula

9 children! Goodness you're going to need to be organised!

I would say, think about the learning and development erquirements... you need to show evidence of children moving along, aiming for their next steps etc depending on their current abilities...

So, ask yourself how often you should be monitoring their progress...

I would look at observing each child each week... and if they do something stunning write that down as well.

Make it do-able though... take on too much and you won't be able to keep it going.

[Paula J]

Hi Sarah thanks for that I got into a real panic then I think I now have everything in place (sort of) and will review how things are going. I have done plans to meet the needs of a 9 and 10 year old but they come for such a short period inbetween my little monsters I have included more chilling time with a snack etc by the way your stuff has made this alot easier I only intened planning till half term but got till end of December done :) Paula

[michelle0]

So is it basically a diary an you that you have to write your plan for the day , observe a child , write what they did and the stage they are at (refering to the eyfs book) and say what your next step is? have a got it right can someone tell me , im so confused.

Thanks

ps paula i agree i enjoy looking after the children but not into this paperwork i would prefer all my spent giving my care and attetion to the children , i really dont see the point in this paperwork because the parents dont seem to be that fussed about it , it would be so much easier if we could just write a little in a diary every day of what the chld has done and nappy changes, feeding etc.

[Paula J]

My parents are the same but thats not what OFSTED say:angry: I do diarys every day showing areas of development met often using childrens pictures or things they may have said and Sarah says do one main ob each week which is what I was planning and then do an extra one if they have done something special or new :) Paula

[michelle0]

an if i was to do the same would that be good enough to keep the unspectors happy?

[sarah707]

We have no idea what will keep the inspectors happy because they won't tell us...

I have printed my Learning journey booklets for each child depending on their age and stage of development...

Then I looked at the length of them... and seen from the ages on them that I have a year or more to fill them in...

So I worked out that if i do an ob and next steps a week (or so... not going to get hung up on this one if it's a quiet week then so be it), plus the wow moments, I will have plenty of evidence to show I am meeting the requirements of the eyfs for the child... and the booklets will be nice and chunky to go home to parents as memories of the child's time with me :D

[michelle0]

so can you tell me is it just the eyfs i work with an that is it do i not have to do anymore paperwork?

[sarah707]

That's right... just the eyfs... from 1st Sept it becomes law and it takes over from birth to 3, the 14 national standards and the foundation stage.

Is that what you mean?