IMPORTANT: Confusion over rules for photos for CMs

[Simona]

Hope this helps every CM who is confused on whether they can or cannot keep photos of children previously cared for in their setting

Confusion over rules for photographs | Nursery World (http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/nursery-world/news/1149284/confusion-rules-photographs?utm_content=&utm_campaign=26.01.14%20NW%20Update&utm_source=Nursery%20World&utm_medium=adestra_email&utm_term=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nurseryworld.co.uk%2Fnur sery-world%2Fnews%2F1149284%2Fconfusion-rules-photographs)

[Simona]

Interesting article...I had only skimmed through it when I posted it.
ICO suggests a policy on 'retention of data'...that took 10 minutes to add to the contract so hope CMs have done the same without creating more paperwork.

I totally agree with the suggestion by the CMs association that ICO puts clearer statements on their website for CMs....it is not a very friendly one! but their suggestions were useful...if you get their regular newsletter it is a hard read!

When it comes to the LAs I am not sure if they ever did share such information with CMs on ICO? ...even when they were fully funded?
My LA used to inform their network CMs about everything but non network CMs did not benefit from the same service.
Not sure it is their remit to tell us how to interpret the ICO guidelines for photos...puzzled by this.

I think the more LAs tell us what to do ...the more discrepancy there will be in their advice...as we know we have 152 variations at the moment for funding....imagine what would happen if they told us what to do with our data.

[Mouse]

I've always had it in my policies that I may keep photos after children have left, so no need to add anything new.

As for LA help - when we did have support, I don't think any of them ever mentioned ICO. The only time we ever discussed it was if another CM asked about it. I don't trust much of the info that comes from our LA, so I certainly wouldn't want to rely on them for ICO advice!

[Simona]

I've always had it in my policies that I may keep photos after children have left, so no need to add anything new.

As for LA help - when we did have support, I don't think any of them ever mentioned ICO. The only time we ever discussed it was if another CM asked about it. I don't trust much of the info that comes from our LA, so I certainly wouldn't want to rely on them for ICO advice!

My sentiments entirely...I rely on my skills to keep myself updated not the LA!

[bunyip]

Thanks for the link Simona. How refreshing to see the NW article is written by somebody who has bypassed all the usual BS assumptions that somehow pass for 'training' and 'professional support' and done a bit of research into to the relevant law.

I can honestly say I had better training on data protection on the railways than I ever have as a CM. :eek: My level 3 course had a section on data protection which amounted to:-


The Data Protection Act exists.
You have to follow it.
We know sweet F.Adams about it, so please don't ask any specific questions or we'll just shrug and fob you off. But we're pretty sure you have to shred everything the moment a child leaves your care.
Er..................er..................er........ .......That's it.



Helpfully, our LA did a course with almost identical content but, as it is online, you don't have to trek halfway across the county to learn nothing. How considerate. :)

I only wish everybody in the childcare sector could read this NW article and thereby get beyond all the rubbish we've been told for so long by our 'fellow-professionals'. We might then be able to start asking some serious questions about the need and storage time for specific data.

My concern is that we may all be deleting data far too soon. We pretty much all know about the need to retain information up to a child's 21+st birthday for insurance purposes. But what about L&D records and safeguarding records? The current fashion for rolling bandwagons of "historic child abuse claims" is worrying, as there appears to be no 'statute of limitations' on how "historic" such claims may be (to the point where, if you're dead, the media can just declare you guilty and s0d your good name and your family's ability to get on with their lives. :( ) And if we shred/delete a child's learning records, what happens if a parent subsequently makes a complaint to Ofsted about our L&D delivery? Have Ofsted ever come out and said they won't investigate an enquiry after a certain amount of time has elapsed? :huh:

[Simona]

Thanks for the link Simona. How refreshing to see the NW article is written by somebody who has bypassed all the usual BS assumptions that somehow pass for 'training' and 'professional support' and done a bit of research into to the relevant law.

I can honestly say I had better training on data protection on the railways than I ever have as a CM. :eek: My level 3 course had a section on data protection which amounted to:-


The Data Protection Act exists.
You have to follow it.
We know sweet F.Adams about it, so please don't ask any specific questions or we'll just shrug and fob you off. But we're pretty sure you have to shred everything the moment a child leaves your care.
Er..................er..................er........ .......That's it.



Helpfully, our LA did a course with almost identical content but, as it is online, you don't have to trek halfway across the county to learn nothing. How considerate. :)

I only wish everybody in the childcare sector could read this NW article and thereby get beyond all the rubbish we've been told for so long by our 'fellow-professionals'. We might then be able to start asking some serious questions about the need and storage time for specific data.

My concern is that we may all be deleting data far too soon. We pretty much all know about the need to retain information up to a child's 21+st birthday for insurance purposes. But what about L&D records and safeguarding records? The current fashion for rolling bandwagons of "historic child abuse claims" is worrying, as there appears to be no 'statute of limitations' on how "historic" such claims may be (to the point where, if you're dead, the media can just declare you guilty and s0d your good name and your family's ability to get on with their lives. :( ) And if we shred/delete a child's learning records, what happens if a parent subsequently makes a complaint to Ofsted about our L&D delivery? Have Ofsted ever come out and said they won't investigate an enquiry after a certain amount of time has elapsed? :huh:

Good point Bunyip...and one I intend to get more clarification on...I seem to have a list
I would say though that ICO is responsible for putting info on their website that is CM friendly and look at our requirements as well.

[JCrakers]

I have a huge amount of photos on my PC of all the children I have looked after and still do. I only keep them for my own purpose as I love to look through them. It brings back memories of when they were younger and getting rid of them would be like getting rid of my own childrens baby photos.

[Simona]

I have a huge amount of photos on my PC of all the children I have looked after and still do. I only keep them for my own purpose as I love to look through them. It brings back memories of when they were younger and getting rid of them would be like getting rid of my own childrens baby photos.

You can do that as long as the parents have consented, you have specified the time you will keep the photos and you have stated a clear reason.
That is my understanding from the article.
I have raised this matter with my association....and for this info to be circulated maybe in our associations monthly magazines....maybe something we can photocopy and keep in our records.

[bunyip]

TBH, if JC is keeping images for personal use only, and not publishing them, how on doG's Earth are the mummies going to know?

Even if they break into JC's sumptuous mansion to find out, how will they go about demonstrating that JC is "causing significant damage or distress" by looking at the odd snap of little Billy in his Spiderman outfit when she ever gets 5 minutes to put her weary feet up? :huh:

[sarah707]

It took a lot of work by a lot of people to get this clarification from ICO that we can retain photos after children have left as long as we have parents written permission.

Every time I have contacted ICO on this matter I have been told that photos of cm children must be destroyed or handed back to parents when children leave.

After consultation with Laura Henry from NEYTCO, Nursery World Editorial got involved.

Nursery World clearly have different contacts to me at ICO because they have now got an answer for us that I have never been able to get from them.

I wrote a lot of information about this issue for Nursery World magazine. They chose to use 1 sentence which I feel has been used out of context. I don't mind because at the end of the day we have our brilliant result - photos can be retained and we now have it in writing!! :clapping:

For whatever reason, this 1 quote is now being used against me.

I would like to re-focus please and ask you to recognise that as a result of teamwork and a lot of work from me, members of the Independent Childminders Facebook group, Laura Henry and Nursery World - we now have written clarification on something that members have been asking to have clarified for many years.

Thank you :D

[shortstuff]

Thanks to all involved. Sorry your words are being used out of context and against you Sarah

[natlou82]

I appreciate your hard work to gain clarification for us Sarah :-) it's typical behaviour of the media to pick up on that one sentence. Good result though - thanks :-)

[Simona]

I personally believe that this clarification is of great help to CMs and it has come at the right time.

I understand there were several people involved in this action and our thanks go to all of them....a lot more needs to be done now including spreading this piece of information as wide as possible as many Cms are not on FB nor have a subscription to Nursery World....so it was timely to share the link to this article here.

Maybe we could also send this to our LAs and ask them to share widely if they do send info to CMs

I will certainly highlight it to my LA as this matter is also clarification for other settings and schools....and as said I have also spoken to my association about this and hope they will spread the message wide.

[bunyip]

I've asked Ofsted about this. They gave a reply which covered their view of the minimum length of time for which CMs must retain the compulsory information we are required to hold on each child.


Childminders must keep records of the following and retain them for a period of two years:
· the name, home address and date of birth of each child who is looked after on the premises

· the name, home address and telephone number of a parent/guardian/carer of each child who is looked after on the premises

· a daily record of the names of the children looked after on the premises and their hours of attendance

· accidents which involve the children being cared for occurring on the premises where childcare is provided

· any medicine administered to any child who is cared for on the premises, including the date and circumstances and who administered it, including medicine which the child is permitted to self-administer, together with a record of a parent/guardian/carer’s consent

· the name, home address and telephone number of every person living or working on the premises on which childcare is provided (or the part of the premises where the childcare is held, in the case of premises such as community/leisure centres, where only parts of the premises are used for childcare)


All records should be retained for a period of 2 years from the date of which the record was made.

This is the legal minimum; where a provider is meeting this we will always consider them to be complaint with this requirement. However it may be good practice to keep records longer where you feel it is appropriate. In all cases providers should hold records in line with the data protection act 1998.

Unfortunately they chose not to answer the part of my email in which I asked if they operated any deadline for complaints. That is, how long after a child leaves a CM's care would they investigate a complaint being made? I think this is a key point for us, what with malicious complaints and a craze for "historic abuse claims".

Dare we ever shred child information files when there appears to be the risk of complaints/allegations being made 30-odd years later? :huh: Those files may be our only defence or proof of events, concerns, due diligence, or that we are following regulatory standards, etc.

[Simona]

I've asked Ofsted about this. They gave a reply which covered their view of the minimum length of time for which CMs must retain the compulsory information we are required to hold on each child.





Unfortunately they chose not to answer the part of my email in which I asked if they operated any deadline for complaints. That is, how long after a child leaves a CM's care would they investigate a complaint being made? I think this is a key point for us, what with malicious complaints and a craze for "historic abuse claims".

Dare we ever shred child information files when there appears to be the risk of complaints/allegations being made 30-odd years later? :huh: Those files may be our only defence or proof of events, concerns, due diligence, or that we are following regulatory standards, etc.

Excellent Bunyip...we do need clear answers on this and we should all be posing these questions
I have raised the same concern with my association today
My understanding is that Ofsted may receive a complaint but they may choose to raise this with us at our next inspection if they deem that to be ok....have I got that right so far?

If that inspection takes place in ...say...3 years' time...cms may have destroyed the records.
That won' t do ....so clear answers are required
having had this issue cleared on one hand ...we now have another to deal with!

[natlou82]

Excellent points made there Bunyip. I'm in agreement that more clarity is necessary, I certainly will not be getting out my shredder in 2 yrs time!

[bunyip]

Excellent Bunyip...we do need clear answers on this and we should all be posing these questions
I have raised the same concern with my association today
My understanding is that Ofsted may receive a complaint but they may choose to raise this with us at our next inspection if they deem that to be ok....have I got that right so far?

If that inspection takes place in ...say...3 years' time...cms may have destroyed the records.
That won' t do ....so clear answers are required
having had this issue cleared on one hand ...we now have another to deal with!

I was thinking well beyond 3 years. Some of those high-profile "historic abuse" claims have been going back 30+ years. Add the culture of "where there's blame, there's a claim" and what's to stop some ex-mindee or client thinking they'll jump on the rolling bandwagon to grab a bit of easy compensation?

I've resubmitted my question to Ofsted twice by email. All I get is the same response, as per my post #14. It's either a standard response, or they're just avoiding committing to how long they'd give it before it became too late to complain.

Neither is my LSCB prepared to say we're safe from false allegations after a certain number of years.

AFAIC this presents good reason for us all to retain all child records indefinitely. :(

[k1rstie]

I am with MM. My insurance that I have today, still covers me in the future, even if I am not childminding or no longer insured with them.


So if an incident occurred today ( or didn't actually occur! ), I will be covered in 20 or 30 or 40 years time, when my childminded kids decide to sue me!

Im not sure how long we are supposed to keep our attendance records, but would you be able to remember which kids you had on a given Thursday in January in 30 years time?

[Simona]

I was thinking well beyond 3 years. Some of those high-profile "historic abuse" claims have been going back 30+ years. Add the culture of "where there's blame, there's a claim" and what's to stop some ex-mindee or client thinking they'll jump on the rolling bandwagon to grab a bit of easy compensation?

I've resubmitted my question to Ofsted twice by email. All I get is the same response, as per my post #14. It's either a standard response, or they're just avoiding committing to how long they'd give it before it became too late to complain.

Neither is my LSCB prepared to say we're safe from false allegations after a certain number of years.

AFAIC this presents good reason for us all to retain all child records indefinitely. :(

I too am thinking beyond the 3 years I mentioned as an example.

I have reported this issue to my association and will feedback when I get more info...there must be some guidance given to providers on this
I will have the opportunity to flag it up again very soon with them.

I also think it is an issue to put on the OBC agenda...so will raise it there too.

PS: on another note I also flagged up the additional conditions imposed by the LAs on funding...again I will feedback when I hear anything.

[natlou82]

Great Simona I really appreciate your efforts on this and all the information you find out and fight for us on this forum. Have a great weekend :-)

[Simona]

Great Simona I really appreciate your efforts on this and all the information you find out and fight for us on this forum. Have a great weekend :-)

I will do my best... as always... but I would like to quote this:

'The revolutionary warrior is not one man in one place. It is all of us, standing up for the rights of each other'
that really fits into our daily battles as cms and, in general, the battles the whole of the EY sector faces.

The only way to fight is to speak up...in numbers.....my view is that is the best way to be heard, not one person on behalf of many but all our little voices heard
Write to your association, lobby OBC, do whatever you can.

[natlou82]

I'm in a learning process as I've been CMing less than a year. But I do believe noting gets done if you just sit around moaning about it, if it's worth the fight I'm happy to go for it. I just like to have all the info and facts first and in a lot of these cases I'm learning and just don't know enough, so really appreciate those who have enough knowledge to push for out rights :-)

[Simona]

I'm in a learning process as I've been CMing less than a year. But I do believe noting gets done if you just sit around moaning about it, if it's worth the fight I'm happy to go for it. I just like to have all the info and facts first and in a lot of these cases I'm learning and just don't know enough, so really appreciate those who have enough knowledge to push for out rights :-)

Totally understand your view...even though you have been in childminding for 1 year you will have heard about CM agencies...the funding saga...the lack of support from LAs...the issue of training now being charged...the lack of grants to get qualifications or proceed with a degree...the conditions some LAs put on cms and the govt policies where 'nurseries' are constantly mentioned (as in the recent grant publication yesterday)...? all this will filter through to you from what you read here and in NWorld or such like.

Last but not least OFSTED...better leave that open!
your length of time in childcare is not important...your future is and your opinion as an individual is as valid as that of anyone else who may speak on behalf of many cms....whatever you can contribute will be important.

[natlou82]

Good points made :-)