Claiming CPD expenses?

[Bluebell]

How far can you claim CPD expenses? I have done a fair bit of training/study and have always claimed for the related expenses. (travel, parking, childcare, resources, stationary etc)
I now plan to be in 'full time' uni next year. I will continue to run my business for evenings, weekends, holiday care whilst studying. (as I have been studying for past 2 years and continued to work) The qualification I will get will be beneficial for my business as I will have QTS and may help me expand to provide for older children, extra tuition, home schooling, training etc - I could really branch out into a variety of services/features that would give me some good selling points (- even out of school club if the govt has its way!)

Can I continue to claim for CPD expenses?

What happens if I then just happened to decide that with my new qualification to close my business and start a new career - can it still be classed as CPD? - as it ultimately turns out I am not using it for my business? Teacher training could be argued to be training to be a teacher - not to provide better provision for a childcare business.

Seems unlikely that I could but I just want to know where I stand?

[sarah707]

I was recently helping a childminder who is being audited by HMRC - they said that she couldn't put her degree costs through because they are not essential to running her business... BUT I know a lot of cms who do put them through and of course if you are not audited it's not going to be a problem!

I suggest you ring HMRC and get their take on your circumstances - then you have evidence that you checked :D

[Bluebell]

wow - a degree is not 'essential' to the running of a business?!

The only training we are required to take - ie that which is essential - is first aid and safeguarding! BUT all training and professional development have a direct impact on the children and families that we support! If I hadn't taken any training I wouldn't have made the improvements to the practice I have taken and wouldn't have the reputation I have. My business therefore would not be as successful as it is - seems obvious to me that just because something is not 'essential' does not mean it is not useful to the business. For example advertising is not 'essential' but it is accepted that by doing it you ultimately benefit the business!! Taking the children to the zoo is not 'essential' but it is of huge benefit to them as they are learning. I am not liking the audit mans term 'essential' as that could apply to an awful lot of things!


The better we are at our jobs - and for some that means having underpinning theory that supports our practice - for others that means being forest school trained (also not essential), or for some that means being extremely crafty and arty and doing amazing projects (also an expense to provide for children but not a required 'essential' beyond a couple of pots of paint maybe)
All these things are something that has a unique selling point for our business - that gives us an advantage. Why are childminders not allowed to invest in our businesses - our workers - ie ourselves - that other companies can claim for.

I know someone who worked for a company - they paid for any extra training, paid for him to attend it, no doubt they put it against their books - then he left the company and went and worked for someone else!

I find it highly questionable that the HMRC questioned someone trying to improve their knowledge to support that of their business - wow that is just shocking!!

If they don't allow a degree I am pretty sure they will not allow claims for a teaching qualification - especially as it is likely that I will end up leaving childminding - the example is just that these could be advantageous to my self-employed situation - whether I ultimately leave is not something I can predict for sure or something that should be taken into account: Training for Advancement in a job shouldn't preclude that person from then leaving.

It makes me quite cross. I hope your friend resolved the issue or at least managed to not get a fine! The thought of being audited I find quite scary - having being audited by the VAT man in my previous post as the person responsible for accounts for a business in my last job!

Thank you so much for your answer - I will ring and have a chat but not hopeful! I wonder if I can change the name of my business to 'childcare and.....' something like home tutoring or something that will be definitely relevant to my qualification and then promote myself as a qualified teacher as a USP.

Of course if Wilshaw has his way we will all be out of a job and only teachers will be allowed to teach 2 year olds so I could even call myself a 'school' to fit in with his daft theories.

Our county council fund some people on foundation degrees / degrees - they obviously think they are relevant to improving the workforce!!

[Bluebell]

BIM52751 - Care providers: childminders: expenses (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM52751.htm)

This does not mention any CPD or training at all - seems strange!

[FussyElmo]

But a degree isn't essential to be a childminder it may extend knowledge etc but you don't need one to be a childminder.

I also wouldn't have thought you could put any costs through to become a teacher. As you are using your business to fund training which may in the end close your business.

[Bluebell]

yes - I completely agree - claiming to train to do something else is completely pushing it to all limits and I realise I am being stupid to even ask the question!

but extending knowledge while not essential is an advantage to our business. If I looked at 2 childminders - 1 who had done the bare minimum and one who had attended on play, speech, supporting 2 year olds, CAF training, SEN etc etc - none of which is essential to be a childminder - I know which one I would choose! To say a degree is not giving that childminder a unique selling point that some parents might find attractive is strange. That childminder is going to have a good underpinning knowledge of her work.

[Simona]

CPD is not just Level 3, degrees or training courses..
it is anything we attend to increase our knowledge and skills and required in EYFS
If we attend conferences or meetings should the expense of travelling not be claimed as it says under other costs?...would be great to hear what HMRC say on that as it does mention travel fares


Other costs

Also allowable - the cost of toys, outings, books, safety equipment, stationary, travel fares, membership fees or subscriptions to your childminding organisation, public liability insurance premiums and the actual cost of telephone use for childminding purposes.

Pacey is not the only association that covers cms now...maybe a broader umbrella should be applied and things have changed a lot since

I agree Bluebell...while the EYFS keeps saying a well qualified workforce is needed ...it stubbornly leaves cms out of that! Crazy

[sarah707]

I think part of the problem is that when HMRC and NCMA sat down to thrash out childminder expenses it wasn't as common to do degrees and the like - so they didn't include it.

I am hoping Chatterbox Childcare will see this thread because she was involved helping our colleague and may have some more up-to-date information on what happened :D

[Simona]

I think part of the problem is that when HMRC and NCMA sat down to thrash out childminder expenses it wasn't as common to do degrees and the like - so they didn't include it.

I am hoping Chatterbox Childcare will see this thread because she was involved helping our colleague and may have some more up-to-date information on what happened :D

I agree Sarah...
not only degrees were not on the agenda as much as now but CMs were not 'as integrated in the sector' as they are now
the EYFS 2008 changed a lot of things and since then everything has evolved very fast but...this agreement remains exactly the same as it was possibly 20/30 years ago when our small businesses have in fact become much more complicated

I remember when people used to say CMs earn 'pin money'....this is no longer so and we are stuck in the past.

In my personal view it is time to rethink ...day nurseries are having their expenses looked at ...so should we and all associations should work together not just the one dealing with HMRC

[The Juggler]

I was recently helping a childminder who is being audited by HMRC - they said that she couldn't put her degree costs through because they are not essential to running her business... BUT I know a lot of cms who do put them through and of course if you are not audited it's not going to be a problem!

I suggest you ring HMRC and get their take on your circumstances - then you have evidence that you checked :D

wow! that's a bit cheeky of them. I put all my degree costs and associated costs like printer ink, paper, files, travel, parking, eating at uni through my accounts. I have an acct and he thought that was fine.:panic:

[Bluebell]

If CPD is required as part of the EYFS, which it is - then it is up to the individual to determine what that CPD is that is relevant to them to improve their service and be able to have it as a business expense.
I wanted to do level 3 and was told I should do the EYPS because I already had a degree. The EYPS was funded by the government but I claimed my mileage and parking etc.

At the time I was required to do a suitable course to become a funded childminder so that to me is 'certification' to do a certain role and is absolutely necessary.
(in my opinion for MY business- not everyone's - we all run our businesses differently and focus on different things - and not everyone wants to be funded)

I too would be interested to hear what happened to the childminder pulled up for claiming expenses for her degree! Shocking and disgraceful.

[christine e]

I think part of the problem is that when HMRC and NCMA sat down to thrash out childminder expenses it wasn't as common to do degrees and the like - so they didn't include it.

I am hoping Chatterbox Childcare will see this thread because she was involved helping our colleague and may have some more up-to-date information on what happened :D

Think Chatterbox is away on holiday - you might be better sending her a pm which she is more likely to see when she returns

[sarah707]

Chatterbox has just contacted me - she says sorry she's not able to reply at the moment - however, her answer is...

The lady she is supporting is still waiting to hear from HMRC about their final judgement on whether they will allow her training costs or not... so we don't have a definite yes or no yet.

We will of course let everyone know when we know :D

[LauraS]

This has made interesting reading, as I am considering self funding an early years degree rather than taking a student loan if it would be tax deductible. Whilst CPD isn't essential, so much of what we do isn't strictly a requirement and I claim for it without hesitation. Treats for the children, books, outings, most CPD, running a car, new toys and resources... There are plenty of things which we pay for which, whilst not essential, make our business more attractive to customers etc. Y could argue that most things are non essential if you really tried.

I will watch this thread with interest for the definitive answer.

[Simona]

Qualified accountants are the best people placed to give advice to cms as they are the experts in dealing with expenses associated with running a small business
They need not be expensive and their expertise is invaluable and worth investing in employing one in my view.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Sorry for the delay - holidays :)

I have spoken to my accountant and he advised that he would claim all and any expenses relating to CPD. Obviously this is his opinion and I would urge anyone who is looking at large expenses to speak to an accountant (degree costs etc).

[wee_elf]

It is so frustrating that we are having to justify the importance of CPD to a higher level, I guess like has been said it is up to the individual to ensure they are able to explain the need and outcome of the costs.

[Bluebell]

It's really strange that HMRC don't know the answer to this - they have questioned it and have even now not made a decision!


still waiting to hear from HMRC about their final judgement on whether they will allow her training costs or not... so we don't have a definite yes or no yet.


I mean if its not clear cut to them then it obviously isn't very clear cut to anyone!!!


I just find it strange that if I worked for a company then they would pay for my training and they would pay me mileage. They might even pay me some lunch expenses.

They sure as heck would claim this as expenses against their company accounts. I can not fathom for a second why we can not do the same as someone who is self-employed!

(please forget the original question about the teacher training that was a hypothetical 'what-if' question that is obviously not appropriate to claim for. However, the other stuff that is directly relevant and an investment in our business to me most certainly is relevant.)

I really feel for the childminder that was pulled up for this in her audit and this must be so stressful for her! I have claimed for a lot of training of CPD in the past so I hope I am not wrong on this! Very best wishes to the childminder and good luck for a positive outcome!