Revised Eyfs - new 04.2014

[sarah707]

The revised Eyfs - published April 2014 - for use from Sept 2014 - NOT NOW so no panic!! :D

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/299391/DFE-00337-2014.pdf

[The Juggler]

thanks Sarah xx

[Simona]

If anyone was hoping for a clearer understanding of CMs variations there are none...no continuity of care or new business mentioned or clarified
all it has is one added line in the first paragraph on page 24...so many questions will continue.

Wasted opportunity really.

[Smiley]

The only obvious things are quite a few mentions of childminder agencies, each time it says inform Ofsted it also says or childminder agencies

[SYLVIA]

is this another 33 pages my poor printer has to produce for me

[loocyloo]

Here's hoping my LA do copies for us like last time!

[shortstuff]

Thanks Sarah x

[VeggieSausage]

Well a few changes for us childminders.....no need to have written policies and procedures but must be able to show you know what your policies are!!! No continuity of care mentioned in exceeding numbers just new babies.....

[mama2three]

thankyou x

[hectors house]

Section on equal opportunities is now far shorter - now called Special Educational Needs, don't seem to have to have a policy for it and it acknowledges that it's now not just Nurseries who can delivery EY funding.

Outings - no longer says you have to have parental permission to take children on outings! or am I missing it being somewhere else?

And it now includes ratio's for before and after school / holiday care.

[benandjerrys]

Well a few changes for us childminders.....no need to have written policies and procedures but must be able to show you know what your policies are!!! No continuity of care mentioned in exceeding numbers just new babies.....

Does this mean if a parent wants to increase days we can't do it?

[hectors house]

Does this mean if a parent wants to increase days we can't do it?

It didn't say in the current version that we could but Sarah707 asked someone high up in Ofsted for clarification on "continuity of care" and they confirmed that we could do this as long as it wasn't new business - it's a shame the new Framework hasn't explained this in more detail as this would have been a good opportunity to get the subject of "self granting a variation" cleared up once and for all.

[mama2three]

Does this mean if a parent wants to increase days we can't do it?

no , it wasn't in the current version either ...it was only mentioned on the ofsted factsheet.

[Simona]

It didn't say in the current version that we could but Sarah707 asked someone high up in Ofsted for clarification on "continuity of care" and they confirmed that we could do this as long as it wasn't new business - it's a shame the new Framework hasn't explained this in more detail as this would have been a good opportunity to get the subject of "self granting a variation" cleared up once and for all.

Good to hear that Ofsted 'can' offer' support on the variations when asked...so why not help cms who in good faith are trying to do the best?
If they have confirmed continuity of care will they now put it in writing for all cms?

The new EYFS does not clarify variations at all ..very clear last night and in addition it does not address 'overlap' which Truss said she would rectify as it was nonsense we could not overlap an hour or so
Maybe those who need to be questioned are the DfE themselves...they revised the framework not Ofsted
What good will it do if Ofsted say we can do continuity of care then an inspector comes along and decides otherwise?

I'll let you know if I get an answer from DfE

[Mcgons]

Good to hear that Ofsted 'can' offer' support on the variations when asked...so why not help cms who in good faith are trying to do the best? If they have confirmed continuity of care will they now put it in writing for all cms? The new EYFS does not clarify variations at all ..very clear last night and in addition it does not address 'overlap' which Truss said she would rectify as it was nonsense we could not overlap an hour or so Maybe those who need to be questioned are the DfE themselves...they revised the framework not Ofsted What good will it do if Ofsted say we can do continuity of care then an inspector comes along and decides otherwise? I'll let you know if I get an answer from DfE

Simona, Ofsted brought out a factsheet explaining ratios and example 3 is a continuity of care situation. The problem I think is that how many days and for how long does Ofsted think it is acceptable to have 4 for continuity of care? Maybe they will re-do this guidance as the framework has just been changed and hopefully it will be clearer for everyone.
http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/filedownloading/?file=documents/registration-forms-and-guides/t/The%20numbers%20and%20ages%20of%20children%20that% 20providers%20on%20the%20Early%20Years%20and%20Chi ldcare%20Registers%20may%20care%20for.pdf&refer=0

[Simona]

Simona, Ofsted brought out a factsheet explaining ratios and example 3 is a continuity of care situation. The problem I think is that how many days and for how long does Ofsted think it is acceptable to have 4 for continuity of care? Maybe they will re-do this guidance as the framework has just been changed and hopefully it will be clearer for everyone.
http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/filedownloading/?file=documents/registration-forms-and-guides/t/The%20numbers%20and%20ages%20of%20children%20that% 20providers%20on%20the%20Early%20Years%20and%20Chi ldcare%20Registers%20may%20care%20for.pdf&refer=0

Thank you for putting that link ...I have of course seen it and read it

As I said below it was a missed opportunity not to address the cms 'self variations' in the new EYFS as they seem to cause a headache all round with questions constantly being asked and anxiety on what inspectors may do if they judge we have not varied properly

I have referred this matter elsewhere and, if I get anywhere, I will share the response...needless to say I did tweet to Truss this morning, DfE and Ofsted but they seem not to be able to read a simple polite request.

[rickysmiths]

Well a few changes for us childminders.....no need to have written policies and procedures but must be able to show you know what your policies are!!! No continuity of care mentioned in exceeding numbers just new babies.....

We haven't had to have written Policies since Sept 2012?

[Simona]

These are the main changes to the EYFS...don't hold your breath
I am sure they will be dissected further ...some I welcome but a lot of it is a drive towards young children in schools

https://www.pre-school.org.uk/sectornews/176/dfe-publishes-revised-eyfs-framework

[sarah707]

I have written about the main changes here :D

http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/forum/ofsted-information-ofsted-inspections/130041-eyfs-2014-main-changes-requirements.html

Yes I agree Simona it's a missed opportunity to clarify the ratios ... and they have confused a couple of other bits that would have been best left *(imo) ... and removed some bits that were useful ... and changed bits for no apparent reason :(

Ho hum they do seem to like to tinker at the edges don't they? :rolleyes:

[FussyElmo]

thank you Sarah :thumbsup:

[Simona]

I have written about the main changes here :D

http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/forum/ofsted-information-ofsted-inspections/130041-eyfs-2014-main-changes-requirements.html

Yes I agree Simona it's a missed opportunity to clarify the ratios ... and they have confused a couple of other bits that would have been best left *(imo) ... and removed some bits that were useful ... and changed bits for no apparent reason :(

Ho hum they do seem to like to tinker at the edges don't they? :rolleyes:

I think they decided to revise and did it very quickly ...considering agencies are still a very grey area at the mo...no interest in consulting with us.....and messed up a lot of the things by removing the necessary and adding a bit more of 'edu speak' so all fits around schools
Whatever happened to the LJs? I did expect them to be mentioned but as assessment for 2 and 4 year olds is to be introduced they had second thoughts maybe....and overlap for cms which I agreed with Truss had to be revised? she starts something and never finishes the task.

Why remove the need to provide areas for rest and quiet times? unless children are going to sleep strapped to their chairs
...as for the ratio for cms...well that's another story

EYFS 2014 is totally unrecognisable from the EYFS 2008...such a shame when many around the world considered a fantastic framework...I do miss it but won't throw it away!!...having a strop really :angry:

[pennypops]

If anyone was hoping for a clearer understanding of CMs variations there are none...no continuity of care or new business mentioned or clarified all it has is one added line in the first paragraph on page 24...so many questions will continue. Wasted opportunity really.

So at the moment we can do continuity of care but from September we can't? I am confused

[Simona]

So at the moment we can do continuity of care but from September we can't? I am confused

Nothing has changed about the self variations for CMs...just one small line added on page 24 about 'a child is a young child until 1st Sept following his/her 5th birthday'

EYFS 2014 has CMs on page 24-25...previous one was page 21

[sarah707]

So at the moment we can do continuity of care but from September we can't? I am confused

What we were hoping for was some further clarification... we haven't got it!!

Still the same rules - still the same wording - still the same confusion :rolleyes: :D

[critch]

The words I want to write will not be allowed to be printed .............
I only told a parent today that I could take her son as continuity for extra hours she wants which means having 4 eyfs for 5 hours on 1 day , confused.com, any suggestions?!

[pennypops]

I am in the same boat, I have a 10 month old full time, two 20 month olds and a 17 month old who comes between the hours of one of the 20 month olds, the 17 month olds mum wants to up her hours from 7 to at the most 25 hours a week so I will be over my number 3 days a week for about 3/4 hours but can I do this? Under continuity of care I can but isn't that just for extreme circumstances? Or is it circumstances as above! It's so unfair to parents and us!

[Simona]

I am in the same boat, I have a 10 month old full time, two 20 month olds and a 17 month old who comes between the hours of one of the 20 month olds, the 17 month olds mum wants to up her hours from 7 to at the most 25 hours a week so I will be over my number 3 days a week for about 3/4 hours but can I do this? Under continuity of care I can but isn't that just for extreme circumstances? Or is it circumstances as above! It's so unfair to parents and us!

Looks to me like an 'overlap' issue there for just 3/4 hours? did I get it right?

It is such a shame it could not have been sorted by a simpler plain English...but I am willing to put it at the London Ofsted Big Conversation

My point here is that agencies will very possibly guide their CMs in getting variations right as they are the ones inspecting their CMs...if they advise incorrectly the agency gets the blame not the CM?.....
so ICMs are at a bit of a disadvantaged ...in my view...when left to interpret ourselves and getting punished by a downgrade

We can only but hope someone will listen.....after all the EYFS 2014 has a few months to get implemented and a small change or 'amendement' could be made...wishful thinking I know but worth a try.

[moggy]

...

We can only but hope someone will listen.....after all the EYFS 2014 has a few months to get implemented and a small change or 'amendement' could be made...wishful thinking I know but worth a try.

Ha ha, that is why I am not printing it out yet!!

[Mouse]

My cm friend has been inspected this week and downgraded to inadequate for having 4 EYs children under continuity of care for 2 hours one day a week. She does it because an existing parent needed to increase her work hours (just like the example on the Ofsted fact sheet!). The inspector told her there is no such thing as continuity of care and there are no circumstances in which you can have 4 EYs children. She even said that a 4 year old child who attends full time school won't be able to attend in the easter hols as she counts as an EYs child and the cm can't have 4 EYs children!
To make matters worse, the inspector had to phone the office while she was there as she didn't understand how it worked!

I think I will get the same inspector soon, so I have all my evidence printed out ready!!

[FussyElmo]

My cm friend has been inspected this week and downgraded to inadequate for having 4 EYs children under continuity of care for 2 hours one day a week. She does it because an existing parent needed to increase her work hours (just like the example on the Ofsted fact sheet!). The inspector told her there is no such thing as continuity of care and there are no circumstances in which you can have 4 EYs children. She even said that a 4 year old child who attends full time school won't be able to attend in the easter hols as she counts as an EYs child and the cm can't have 4 EYs children!
To make matters worse, the inspector had to phone the office while she was there as she didn't understand how it worked!

I think I will get the same inspector soon, so I have all my evidence printed out ready!!

From what we are hearing she is not the only one. Seems like the exception for existing parents changing hours is not being looked favourably on. Also that a variation shouldn't be for long term :-(

However this is the framework we have to work with again :( Can we really hope that ofsted will take our concerns on board and ask the DFE to revise the eyfs again. Shame they started tinkering with the 2008 version.

[Simona]

My cm friend has been inspected this week and downgraded to inadequate for having 4 EYs children under continuity of care for 2 hours one day a week. She does it because an existing parent needed to increase her work hours (just like the example on the Ofsted fact sheet!). The inspector told her there is no such thing as continuity of care and there are no circumstances in which you can have 4 EYs children. She even said that a 4 year old child who attends full time school won't be able to attend in the easter hols as she counts as an EYs child and the cm can't have 4 EYs children!
To make matters worse, the inspector had to phone the office while she was there as she didn't understand how it worked!

I think I will get the same inspector soon, so I have all my evidence printed out ready!!

That is a rather worrying statement by an inspector...'there is no such thing as continuity of care ...no circumstances we can have 4 in the EYFS'...sad no one reported this inspector for individual judgement and inability to follow the EYFS...what was all the training about I wonder?


Not sure where this has come from but I hear lots of rumours at the moment that Ofsted will take all inspector back 'in house' soon...if it happens to be true not a minute too soon for all of us!!

I wonder if anyone has spotted this on page 4 of EYFS 2014:
Expiry or review date
This statutory framework remains in force until further notice...

how long will that be?
Can Ofsted take our concerns onboard?...so far they have taken a few...thanks to OBC and their agenda is growing...keep updated

[Mouse]

That is a rather worrying statement by an inspector...'there is no such thing as continuity of care ...no circumstances we can have 4 in the EYFS'...sad no one reported this inspector for individual judgement and inability to follow the EYFS...what was all the training about I wonder?



The cm has lodged an appeal and it's being looked into. The person who is dealing with it says it sounds as if it should come under continuity of care, but willl have to look into the written report. I'm sure they'll try to find some way of backing the inspector :panic:

[Simona]

The cm has lodged an appeal and it's being looked into. The person who is dealing with it says it sounds as if it should come under continuity of care, but willl have to look into the written report. I'm sure they'll try to find some way of backing the inspector :panic:

Good on that CM for challenging and appealing....let us know how it goes :thumbsup:

[loocyloo]

My cm friend has been inspected this week and downgraded to inadequate for having 4 EYs children under continuity of care for 2 hours one day a week. She does it because an existing parent needed to increase her work hours (just like the example on the Ofsted fact sheet!). The inspector told her there is no such thing as continuity of care and there are no circumstances in which you can have 4 EYs children. She even said that a 4 year old child who attends full time school won't be able to attend in the easter hols as she counts as an EYs child and the cm can't have 4 EYs children!
To make matters worse, the inspector had to phone the office while she was there as she didn't understand how it worked!

I think I will get the same inspector soon, so I have all my evidence printed out ready!!

scary.

I have 7 EY children over a week. one LO started off coming one day, then needed a different day ( which took me to 4 under 5 ). another LO has left, so I moved 1st LO to that day ... taking me to 3 under 5 each day ... and ANOTHER mum has now asked if she can add that day on, as needs to work an extra day! so back to 4 under 5!

I did have a LO who started, and within a week of mum being back at work, was 'asked' ( read TOLD ) to swap her days around, which meant that I had a 'continuity of care' for a LO who had only done a couple of settling sessions during the preceeding month and then a couple of days with me as there was no one else to have child or mum lost job!

[Simona]

Deviating slightly from variations...who will stop giving children time to rest and sleep?
EYFS 2014 is not prescriptive on this

Nurseries 'no longer told to give infants a daytime nap' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10737807/Nurseries-no-longer-told-to-give-infants-a-daytime-nap.html)

[pennypops]

Yes it is an overlap, but do I say to the parent I can do it or let her go even though she has been with me since she was 8 months!?

[cb29]

Good on that CM for challenging and appealing....let us know how it goes :thumbsup:

Hi yes I think she definitely needs to appeal, you are allowed over 3 eyfs children for special circumstances and continuity of care should fall under this. As long as you risk assess, do a space plan and say how you can care for 4 at the same time, there should be no problem.

[Bakez66]

Ok so I've just read the new framework and it says you can only have a variation in place if you have your own baby or for your current minded children's siblings. It doesn't say anything about variations for parents working extra hours etc so am I right to think I have to turn parents away by September who have changed their hours (which currently takes me upto 4 under 5s) or have I miss interpreted this?

[LittleRabbits]

Ofsted document:
'childminder cares for three children in the early years age group. The parent of one of the children, a two-year-old who is with the childminder from 8am until 2pm, asks if she can extend the hours until 6pm. Her work pattern has changed and she must work full time for the next three months. This would mean that for three days a week the childminder would have four children under the age of five, as she currently looks after a three-year-old for three days between 3pm and 5pm. The parents of both children are keen to maintain continuity of care for their children who are very settled with the childminder. The childminder realises that she needs extra equipment and must change her daily routine so that most of her outings take place when she does not have four children. She borrows extra resources from the childminder resource centre.
18. We would judge at inspection whether the arrangements meet the needs of the children ad they are likely to do so'

It does however say for 3 months, not a permanent change...

[Bakez66]

Ofsted document: 'childminder cares for three children in the early years age group. The parent of one of the children, a two-year-old who is with the childminder from 8am until 2pm, asks if she can extend the hours until 6pm. Her work pattern has changed and she must work full time for the next three months. This would mean that for three days a week the childminder would have four children under the age of five, as she currently looks after a three-year-old for three days between 3pm and 5pm. The parents of both children are keen to maintain continuity of care for their children who are very settled with the childminder. The childminder realises that she needs extra equipment and must change her daily routine so that most of her outings take place when she does not have four children. She borrows extra resources from the childminder resource centre. 18. We would judge at inspection whether the arrangements meet the needs of the children ad they are likely to do so' It does however say for 3 months, not a permanent change...

Oh ok thankyou, I couldn't see this on the 2014 framework I read. When parents increase there hours (from my experience) it's not normally temporary so basically I need to say no If a parent wants to increase hours permanently and requires an extra day or employ an assistant to keep them

[samb]

I thought I totally understood variations until now- I also didn't realise it was only temporary changes that were ok- so if a current parent wants a random ad hoc day and you don't go over 6 under 8s you can have have 4 under full time school age. But not if that parent wants to add an additional day as a permanent thing? So glad I saw this now as I'm in that exact situation- I've said yes a few times for an extra random day but mum wants it to be permanent. So basically I can do it if she asks each week but not as a change of hours?

[Kiddleywinks]

I also didn't realise it was only temporary changes that were ok- so if a current parent wants a random ad hoc day and you don't go over 6 under 8s you can have have 4 under full time school age. But not if that parent wants to add an additional day as a permanent thing?
So basically I can do it if she asks each week but not as a change of hours?

So if a parent asks once a week for an extra day that week, that's ok, but not if they asks for a permanent change? That doesn't even make sense! (Ofsted, not OP)

[loocyloo]

I have had 4 on a permanent ( until one child leaves/moves day ) variation before, both from when Ofsted granted variations, and also when I have RA and given myself a variation. I am sure I will have them again in the future! none of my parents seem capable of sticking to original contracted days!

[Simona]

I can see from reading this thread that 'variations' continue to be a topic of discussion and utter confusion for cms

The EYFS is written by the DfE ...Ofsted in its role of regulator and inspector....should ensure that their inspectors 'interpret' the EYFS in the way it has been written not according to individual inspectors' interpretations and punishing cms by downgrading them if they feel the cms has done the wrong self variation

Cms own interpretation conflict at times...I think the time has come to raise this issue with the appropriate Dept because 2 years on from EYFS 2012 some people are very unclear...I cannot envisage this topic going away when EYFS 2014 is implemented in Sept...can anyone?

May I suggest those who attend Ofsted Big Conversation raise this question as I did at the recent London meeting?
Ofsted rightly responded by saying it is the DfE we need to approach not Ofsted...although the training of their inspectors is Ofsted's duty and we know that this is very much in question at the moment

If anyone feels strongly they can write to Nick Hudson who has CMs in his Ofsted National Director's remit or give the DfE a call...or even better write to Truss whose promise to address the overlap for Cms has evaporated.

As a last resort cms could attend their local OBC meeting...these are now ongoing and the second wave is under way...send an email to the chair of your OBC area and ask for the issue to be addressed at the meeting

[sarah707]

Ok so I've just read the new framework and it says you can only have a variation in place if you have your own baby or for your current minded children's siblings. It doesn't say anything about variations for parents working extra hours etc so am I right to think I have to turn parents away by September who have changed their hours (which currently takes me upto 4 under 5s) or have I miss interpreted this?

No changes - the variations section of the Eyfs 2014 is exactly the same as the one in the Eyfs 2012 we are working with now.

It says the same about continuity of care in exceptional circumstances as well - and the Ofsted factsheet 'number and ages of children' is still valid until we are told otherwise :D