Over numbers?

[teacakepenguin]

Hiah

I am not sure what to do, a local provider I see out and about on the school run has frequently had 8 or more under 8s with her - just one adult. I'm feeling rather new still but this isn't allowed is it? When it happened once I thought maybe it was just a one off, but it happened again yesterday. I know what school year the children are in so I know their ages.

Would you say anything? I don't think I feel I could ask her, it feels quite confronational.
Jx

[Nicola Carlyle]

How do you know for definate she is over her numbers? She may have a variation in place for siblings, continuity of care etc. there may also be another adult/assistant that you arent aware of.

Just the other day I was collecting from school with 12 children in tow with my husband and friend (both registered assistants) and saw the chair of the board of governors deliberately stop, count my children and give me the most awful look. I doubt she has a clue the other adults are both registered assistants but what business is it of hers?

I think if you are able to say good morning or have a passing comment with this other minder then you could easily slip into a quick conversation about numbers etc. no harm done.

[Rick]

Hiah

I am not sure what to do, a local provider I see out and about on the school run has frequently had 8 or more under 8s with her - just one adult. I'm feeling rather new still but this isn't allowed is it? When it happened once I thought maybe it was just a one off, but it happened again yesterday. I know what school year the children are in so I know their ages.

Would you say anything? I don't think I feel I could ask her, it feels quite confronational.
Jx

Going over 6 under 8's is a big no no and if Ofsted came knocking on her door she would be in serious trouble. It really should be reported but the minder may know who did it so I understand you may feel awkward doing this.

[Rick]

How do you know for definate she is over her numbers? She may have a variation in place for siblings, continuity of care etc. there may also be another adult/assistant that you arent aware of.

Just the other day I was collecting from school with 12 children in tow with my husband and friend (both registered assistants) and saw the chair of the board of governors deliberately stop, count my children and give me the most awful look. I doubt she has a clue the other adults are both registered assistants but what business is it of hers?

I think if you are able to say good morning or have a passing comment with this other minder then you could easily slip into a quick conversation about numbers etc. no harm done.

You cannot go over 6 children under 8 under any circumstances. It sounds like it was obvious the minder was on her own.

[watford wizz]

Can you go over 6 under 8 if it's a sibling continuity of care? Finding this all a bit confusing x

[teacakepenguin]

Yes she was on her own, as I have seen her up there with an assistant when there has been a lot of children. I know the children who are there as it's a small place I live in, and no there weren't siblings amongst them.

I will ponder it further, thanks.
Jx

[FussyElmo]

Can you go over 6 under 8 if it's a sibling continuity of care? Finding this all a bit confusing x

No you can never go over 6 under 8s even for sibling continuity of care.

[watford wizz]

Thank you x

[Nicola Carlyle]

No you can't go over 6 under 8 if your on your own at any time for whatever reason. I was just saying in an earlier post that if there was an assistant there that the original poster wasn't aware of then maybe that would explain why she was over her 6 under 8.

Just something else to think about - the ages of the children may differ due to what class they are in. For example if you have 2 children in year 2 you could have 1x7 year old and 1 x 8 year old due to when their birthdays fall. X

[TooEarlyForGin?]

You also have to be sure about ages, I have two girls at the moment who are 8, so I could have 8 children with me, looking a similar age (I don't though, not that mad).

[Simona]

My goodness...how can we, over a year after EYFS 2012 came out, still ask if we can care for more than 6 children under 8?
The answer is NO...very clear on page 21 of the guidance
The thread is: over numbers?...the question mark means there is not a guarantee of this

Teacakepenguin....it is very difficult to offer advice/support in such a situation as we are not witnessing this or indeed counting the children...if you are sure the minder was/is over numbers you have 2 choices
1. approach her and tell her you are worried because she appears to have many children on her own and you worry about their safety
2. report her but you have no evidence and that will immediately trigger an inspection for her

this is going to be another long thread about speculating on what we cannot see and what is clear in the legislation

MTK...you say ''It sounds like it was obvious the minder was on her own''. ...that is not obvious to me or anyone else from where we are sitting reading this but the cm here who is worried can look into it a bit further...it is our duty to protect children so they are safe

[angeldelight]

My goodness...how can we, over a year after EYFS 2012 came out, still ask if we can care for more than 6 children under 8?
The answer is NO...very clear on page 21 of the guidance
The thread is: over numbers?...the question mark means there is not a guarantee of this

Teacakepenguin....it is very difficult to offer advice/support in such a situation as we are not witnessing this or indeed counting the children...if you are sure the minder was/is over numbers you have 2 choices
1. approach her and tell her you are worried because she appears to have many children on her own and you worry about their safety
2. report her but you have no evidence and that will immediately trigger an inspection for her

this is going to be another long thread about speculating on what we cannot see and what is clear in the legislation

MTK...you say ''It sounds like it was obvious the minder was on her own''. ...that is not obvious to me or anyone else from where we are sitting reading this but the cm here who is worried can look into it a bit further...it is our duty to protect children so they are safe

I'm sure you didn't mean to sound rude Simona but you do !!!!

The op is concerned so asked a simple question

She is new and wants to check she is right ...that's what the forum is all about ...helping members

It does not matter if the question is asked a million times or if there is a debate ...it's what we are here for

Angel xx

[bunyip]

You say "a local provider" - is she a CM? I ask because there's a world of difference between a CM making a choice (or maybe a mistake) to overmind and, say, the employee of an after-school business under pressure from her employer to break the rules. It's also possible she might misunderstand the regs. As you've sometimes seen her with an assistant, maybe it's a CM who mistakenly thinks it's ok to do it alone when her assistant is sick/on holiday. ?:huh:

I think what you do really depends on the underlying reason as to why you're worried. Is it the children's welfare that bothers you? or the possibility of the provider getting into trouble? or something else?

I'm not presenting a value judgment, just think it's essential to be clear about what you're looking to achieve in order to decide how you go about it.

Is there a 3rd party who could be involved, such as mentioning your concerns to a local DO who might have a quiet word with the provider?

As members have said, it is worth being as sure as possible about the facts on numbers/ages first.

[Simona]

I'm sure you didn't mean to sound rude Simona but you do !!!!

The op is concerned so asked a simple question

She is new and wants to check she is right ...that's what the forum is all about ...helping members

It does not matter if the question is asked a million times or if there is a debate ...it's what we are here for

Angel xx

There was absolutely no rudeness in my comment Angel...just sound advice and to follow the guidance and possibly gut instinct if something is perceived to be wrong
Bunyip also offered good advice which is very sound: asking for help to a DO if one available of course

[JCrakers]

Its a tough one isn't it...It's hard to drop into conversation 'do you know you are over your numbers'. I know all 3 of the childminders that do school runs at my school and I would find it hard to ask them if ever I suspected they had too many. It can either come across as a.) helpful and thoughtful because you don't want them to get into trouble or B.) Interfering and spiteful because you think they are doing a bad job.

Do you think she had some Yr 3's who are 8? or where they all smaller?

I cant understand anyone who would go over there numbers because its well stated that we can NEVER have more than 6 under 8 and that's never changed in the 6yrs I've been doing it. And to go out in public with so many people who could tell Ofsted and put your business at stake for the sake of a couple of extra children. Plus insurance will not pay out if something was to happen and if something was to happen and a child got hurt, the parent could sue and you would end up having no business and owing a hell of a lot of money. :(

Hope you manage to sort something out.

[Daftbat]

Can you go over 6 under 8 if it's a sibling continuity of care? Finding this all a bit confusing x

In a word NO

[Daftbat]

My goodness...how can we, over a year after EYFS 2012 came out, still ask if we can care for more than 6 children under 8?
The answer is NO...very clear on page 21 of the guidance
The thread is: over numbers?...the question mark means there is not a guarantee of this

Teacakepenguin....it is very difficult to offer advice/support in such a situation as we are not witnessing this or indeed counting the children...if you are sure the minder was/is over numbers you have 2 choices
1. approach her and tell her you are worried because she appears to have many children on her own and you worry about their safety
2. report her but you have no evidence and that will immediately trigger an inspection for her

this is going to be another long thread about speculating on what we cannot see and what is clear in the legislation

MTK...you say ''It sounds like it was obvious the minder was on her own''. ...that is not obvious to me or anyone else from where we are sitting reading this but the cm here who is worried can look into it a bit further...it is our duty to protect children so they are safe

Hear Hear!!!

I see lots of posts on this forum relating to numbers and ratios. Some of them are valid questions relating to variations, including our own children whilst at school/nursery and reception age children for example. The one thing which has never ever changed whilst I have been minding (14 years) is that you are only ever allowed 6 children under 8 years of age. I find it very difficult to get my head around why it can cause confusion generally.

Simona is not being harsh with her comments at all just pointing out that it is concerning that it is not fully understood with some people.

The OP should act if she definitely knows the ages of the children AND that there was no situation which could be seen as acceptable. I once picked an extra child up who was just under 8 and walked her to her grandmothers on the way home from school because her mother had a car crash on the way to collect the child from school. I ensured the child was safe and it was the logical thing to do given the circumstances as the grandmother was unable to go to school herself. So, always check exactly what the situation is and if you are certain you have your facts right then by all means refer the cm to Ofsted.

[teacakepenguin]

Hi again

No it's not a CM it's a nursery who provide before/after school care, and it's the owner of the nursery. I was pretty sure I wasn't barking mad but I couldn't believe that she'd been out with that many children, on more than one occasion. I don't feel I could approach her though, hence I wanted to make sure I definitely wasn't going mad. I don't know what a DO is, we have a support worker but the funding from them have stopped from county so they are being phased out.

I wish I'd made a note of the ages, you're right whoever said there could have been old year 3s, I couldn't put my hand on heart and say there weren't. If it happens again I'll be taking better notice.

Thank you
Jx

[Zoomie]

If they are registered as a childcare facility, then look for their Ofsted registration certificate and that will tell you how many children they can look after

[Simona]

Hi again

No it's not a CM it's a nursery who provide before/after school care, and it's the owner of the nursery. I was pretty sure I wasn't barking mad but I couldn't believe that she'd been out with that many children, on more than one occasion. I don't feel I could approach her though, hence I wanted to make sure I definitely wasn't going mad. I don't know what a DO is, we have a support worker but the funding from them have stopped from county so they are being phased out.

I wish I'd made a note of the ages, you're right whoever said there could have been old year 3s, I couldn't put my hand on heart and say there weren't. If it happens again I'll be taking better notice.

Thank you
Jx

Ah..that may change the whole thing altogether...in a nursery the ratio is different especially if they have an EYPS or QTS ...look at EYFS p19
Hope this helps?

[bunyip]

Hi again

No it's not a CM it's a nursery who provide before/after school care, and it's the owner of the nursery. I was pretty sure I wasn't barking mad but I couldn't believe that she'd been out with that many children, on more than one occasion. I don't feel I could approach her though, hence I wanted to make sure I definitely wasn't going mad. I don't know what a DO is, we have a support worker but the funding from them have stopped from county so they are being phased out.

I wish I'd made a note of the ages, you're right whoever said there could have been old year 3s, I couldn't put my hand on heart and say there weren't. If it happens again I'll be taking better notice.

Thank you
Jx

DO = Development Officer, which is probably a very similar function to your local support worker system. It might be worth contacting them if they've not yet been entirely phased out. Sorry if the abbreviation was unclear.

I thought the "provider" might not be a CM, as you say. This makes a whole lot of difference. It means the whole EYFS Statutory Requirements section (paragraphs 3.39 - 3.41 inclusive, page 21) on Childminders' ratios is irrelevant in this instance. The numbers allowed for other types of provider can vary depending on type, qualifications, and even time of day (!?!?) - so it's well worth checking their certificate as Zoomie has pointed out.

There's a big chunk of regulations on this in EYFS Statutroy Framework, starting at paragraph 3.27 and going on for longer than my attention span has ever managed to accommodate. I daresay there's more in the Childcare Register regs and possibly The Children's Act, in the bits I've never studied cos they don't apply to me and I really don't need to go looking for a headache in my spare time.

This is the main reason why reception class teachers don't get reported for "overminding" 30 EY children. :rolleyes:

[Simona]

DO = Development Officer, which is probably a very similar function to your local support worker system. It might be worth contacting them if they've not yet been entirely phased out. Sorry if the abbreviation was unclear.

I thought the "provider" might not be a CM, as you say. This makes a whole lot of difference. It means the whole EYFS Statutory Requirements section (paragraphs 3.39 - 3.41 inclusive, page 21) on Childminders' ratios is irrelevant in this instance. The numbers allowed for other types of provider can vary depending on type, qualifications, and even time of day (!?!?) - so it's well worth checking their certificate as Zoomie has pointed out.

There's a big chunk of regulations on this in EYFS Statutroy Framework, starting at paragraph 3.27 and going on for longer than my attention span has ever managed to accommodate. I daresay there's more in the Childcare Register regs and possibly The Children's Act, in the bits I've never studied cos they don't apply to me and I really don't need to go looking for a headache in my spare time.

This is the main reason why reception class teachers don't get reported for "overminding" 30 EY children. :rolleyes:

Thank you Bunyip for reinforcing what I said in my comment previous to yours.

[bunyip]

Thank you Bunyip for reinforcing what I said in my comment previous to yours.

Oh? I did? :confused:

I certainly wasn't trying to reinforce any comments that may have been based on jumping to the rather negative conclusion that a childminder was involved.

The OP never said it was a CM, and I merely did her the courtesy of asking for clarification of what she meant by "local provider."

That's all.

[Simona]

Oh? I did? :confused:

I certainly wasn't trying to reinforce any comments that may have been based on jumping to the rather negative conclusion that a childminder was involved.

The OP never said it was a CM, and I merely did her the courtesy of asking for clarification of what she meant by "local provider."

That's all.

Neither did I Bunyip...I merely suggested that it changes things because the nursery owner may have high qualifications and she is picking up full time children for what I would assume is 'wraparound care'

[bindy]

No you can never go over 6 under 8s even for sibling continuity of care.


OK now confused can you go over 6 under 8 with 2 childminders and 1 assistant working together with planning permission? Some one please tell me before I go and break the law lol ! Even though I read all I need to know on Ofsted web site, I come on here and get completely confused. I know for sure, 4 working together is different and need to register has child care on domestic property, which is what I am doing at the moment.

[Smiley]

Page 21 statutory framework

3.41 If a childminder employs an assistant or works with another childminder, each childminder (or assistant) may care for the number of children permitted by the ratios specified above22. Children may be left in the sole care of childminders’ assistants for 2 hours at most in a single day23. Childminders must obtain parents and/or carers’ permission to leave children with an assistant, including for very short periods of time. For childminders providing overnight care, the ratios continue to apply and the childminder must always be able to hear the children (this may be via a monitor).

[Simona]

OK now confused can you go over 6 under 8 with 2 childminders and 1 assistant working together with planning permission? Some one please tell me before I go and break the law lol ! Even though I read all I need to know on Ofsted web site, I come on here and get completely confused. I know for sure, 4 working together is different and need to register has child care on domestic property, which is what I am doing at the moment.

No need to be confused...this is what EYFS 12 p21 says about Cms and assistants...hope it helps?

3.41 If a childminder employs an assistant or works with another childminder, each childminder (or assistant) may care for the number of children permitted by the ratios specified above22. Children may be left in the sole care of childminders’ assistants for 2 hours at most in a single day23.
Childminders must obtain parents and/or carers’ permission to leave children with an assistant, including for very short periods of time. For childminders providing overnight care, the ratios continue to apply and the childminder must always be able to hear the children (this may be via a monitor).

[Simona]

Sorry Smiley...we must have sent the comment at the same time!
At least it is confirmed and will help Bindy :thumbsup:

[clairer]

Yes nurseries have totally different ratios.

When I have seven children on a Tuesday I often worry I will be reported as my own nine year old is tiny!

[bindy]

Yes nurseries have totally different ratios.

When I have seven children on a Tuesday I often worry I will be reported as my own nine year old is tiny!

Some CM can be real busy bodies, I'm amazed how many say in such a casual way" Just report her and if she is doing nothing wrong then she will be OK" Do they not know what stress that can cause? It will also stay on her records for 3 years even if nothing is found!

[teacakepenguin]

Oooh thank you, no I didn't realise there was a difference. Having been involved in a preschool where ratios were strictly adhered to in the same way as they are with CM, I assumed that it applied to all under 8s. Schools still work to the same ratio when they are on outings though don't they? I'm glad I checked as I wouldn't want to get my information wrong and cause them a whole lot of stress as a result. Maybe I ought to try to talk to her, but she's a bit scary!

Jx

[Simona]

Oooh thank you, no I didn't realise there was a difference. Having been involved in a preschool where ratios were strictly adhered to in the same way as they are with CM, I assumed that it applied to all under 8s. Schools still work to the same ratio when they are on outings though don't they? I'm glad I checked as I wouldn't want to get my information wrong and cause them a whole lot of stress as a result. Maybe I ought to try to talk to her, but she's a bit scary!

Jx

If you do talk to her ask her why she is 'pinching' CMs work by doing 'wrap around care'? :rolleyes:
I bet rather than scary she is panicky if she is picking up all those kids and worried they stay by her side?
Hope she's got a good missing child policy!!!

That is what is really worrying me these days if nurseries and preschools will start picking up from schools at 3pm and then offer holiday care will there be less work for CMs?

[teacakepenguin]

Ha! Cos it would be less scary to ask her that than about her numbers? :)

She is good with kids to be fair, very experienced, even if not necessarily everyone's cup of tea.

It's hard in a small place, there are only a couple of CMs, she opened a few years ago and I think needed to target wrap around care as there's a thriving preschool already so the little ones are pretty well covered. CMs seem popular with people (I am the same price as the nursery) as there are so many more positives - home environment and the ability to go out a lot etc. I don't feel threatened by her in terms of business.

Jx


If you do talk to her ask her why she is 'pinching' CMs work by doing 'wrap around care'? :rolleyes:
I bet rather than scary she is panicky if she is picking up all those kids and worried they stay by her side?
Hope she's got a good missing child policy!!!

That is what is really worrying me these days if nurseries and preschools will start picking up from schools at 3pm and then offer holiday care will there be less work for CMs?

[bunyip]

Some CM can be real busy bodies, I'm amazed how many say in such a casual way" Just report her and if she is doing nothing wrong then she will be OK" Do they not know what stress that can cause? It will also stay on her records for 3 years even if nothing is found!

I have to agree. I wonder how many of us would enjoy being forced to submit to an inspection every time someone phoned Ofsted cos they were unsure of the facts?As mentioned, it might be something as simple as an older child who looks young, or we have a 'variation' in place or assistant present. Do we really want to be reported and inspected every time 'just in case'? That's before we even get started on CMs/members who openly admit to breaches of the regulations. :(

[Simona]

Some CM can be real busy bodies, I'm amazed how many say in such a casual way" Just report her and if she is doing nothing wrong then she will be OK" Do they not know what stress that can cause? It will also stay on her records for 3 years even if nothing is found!

I do agree with what you say Bindy ...but think about this: often those who report providers are not CMs themselves but members of the public or parents who have either a grudge with a provider or have no idea of the EYFS rules....parents are easily traceable if they complaint about us but strangers are not

I am glad we have clarified that in this case, being a nursery, the ratio may be appropriate
Cms are vulnerable because our over 8s do not count in our ratio and that is where often people get confused...if I had a £ every time I was asked that in the past by a particular person I would be rich now...in the end every time I saw her I told her: I am allowed to look after this number of children!!!